Talk:Shungwaya

Zhong-Li

Please refer to Wikipedia:Fringe theories, you can find sources for any claim that doesnt mean it should be included, there's even references. They are fringe and inaccurate. This is why the articles go by the mainstream view and as editors, it is our duty to analyze sources . This is why the articles go by the mainstream view .Mainstream sources links Zhong-Li to the Somali peoples. Get a consensus on the talk page before restoring content. If we include all fringe theories then wikipedia wont be taken seriously. Thanks

Replayerr (talk) 12:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

@Srnec Please refer to Wikipedia:Fringe theories, you can find sources for any claim that doesn't mean it should be included.

Many scholars state that Zhong-Li was on the Somali coast. The town on which the king of Chung-Li lived in Mogadishu [1] Chung-Li may possibly be the transcription of the word Somali or Somal.[2]

The Mijekenda peoples do not traditionally practice Frankincense cultivation while an important characteristic mentioned by the Chinese source is that this is the only one among the Arabs which produce the product. It is a broad hint alludes with Somaliland.[3] Replayerr (talk) 21:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

See WP:AGEMATTERS. I cite a source from 1964, you come back with ones from 1909 and 1911. I'm not disputing that there are different opinions. But there is nothing "fringe" here. Srnec (talk) 22:08, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I will be referring to WP:AGEMATTERS later on. I have shown sources from 1909 and 1911 only to cement that the main consensus that Zhong-Li was on the Somali coast from the beginning.[1] [2] [3] .

This is a 1963 source which states that Zhong-Li is on the Somali Coast. [4] According Chinese commentary to on a source from 1996. Zhong-Li refers to Miguirtania (Refer to Page 105) [5] From a 2015 source the Chinese word “中” could be the miswriting of “申”, thereafter “Shenli”, which is identical to “Somali”. Therefore, Zhongli Guo is generally considered as present Somali.(Refer to page 10) [6] [7].

As I said before. Please refer to Wikipedia:Fringe theories, you can find sources for any claim that doesnt mean it should be included, there's even references. They are fringe and inaccurate. This is why the articles go by the mainstream view and as editors, it is our duty to analyze sources . This is why the articles go by the mainstream view. Mainstream sources links Zhong-Li to the Somali peoples. As I have provided above. These multiple citations have shown the mainstream consensus and that if we include all fringe theories then Wikipedia wont be taken seriously. As editors it's our duty to analyze the sources.If you can find various citations to support the statement in the article, then it can be included. Fringe tradition isn't really acceptable in articles.

According to Rodger F. Morton

"Coastal traditions recorded prior to 1897 or so, however, indicate that the Shungwaya tradition entered Mijikenda oral literature only after this date and is therefore of doubtful veracity." [8]

Shungwaya was included in coastal traditions and entered Mijikenda oral literature post-1897 which nullifies its claims to Zhong-Li. Replayerr (talk) 13:07, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Srnec Replayerr (talk) 13:11, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The article currently states that it was on the Somali coast, so sources saying the same thing hardly contradict the article. This is the article Shungwaya and the disputed text is here because it is about a proposed etymological connection between "Shungwaya" and "Zhongli". The Li Anshan sources says that maybe "Zhongli" is a misspelling and then gives the emended word a connection to "Somali". This is hardly a decisive refutation of the POV in the article. Still, I'm not here to defend a given etymology of a Chinese word, something I am not competent to do, but to fight the suppression of ideas by misapplication of FRINGE. Paul Wheatley was a respected scholar. In fact, Li Anshan calls his work "excellent" here, in the same work in which he criticizes Allen and repeats his opinion regarding "Zhongli". Note that an etymological connection between "Shungwaya" and "Zhongli" does not imply that the Chinese sources have Mijikenda in view. We should add a note to the article, cited to Li, stating that "Zhongli" may be an error for "Shen(g)li", which is not related to "Shungwaya" but to "Somali". Srnec (talk) 14:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

For us to reach middle-ground I would prefer that these sources are included in this article to further bolster that the article stating that it was on the Somali coast rather than having a note to the article.

I would also want that Rodger F. Morton's statement to be included in the article.

"Coastal traditions recorded prior to 1897 or so, however, indicate that the Shungwaya tradition entered Mijikenda oral literature only after this date and is therefore of doubtful veracity." [8]

Replayerr (talk) 19:52, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Srnec Replayerr (talk) 19:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The article already says From Zhao's description, the place seems to be in the south of modern Somalia. I have no problem with the Li Anshan source to provide an alternate theory of the Chinese term. The Morton quotation is relevant to the article, but irrelevant to the question of the etymology of Zhongli. Srnec (talk) 23:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)