Talk:Shtreimel

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Removed advertisement.Atheistrabbi 16:57, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

How is the word pronounced?

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Remove Stub Tag?

What does everyone think about removing the stub tag from this article? There is not much more that can added. --רח"ק | Talk 06:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

You're too nice. Be bold! (grin):

De-stubbed

This article appears to be of an appropriate length for the subject matter under discussion. It is also appropriately categorized and wikified.

By nature, stubbing and tagging articles devalues them, giving them an aura of unreliability and making them seem less credible. As part of my personal campaign to free up articles that have been stubbed and tagged without cause, this article has been disenstubified.

If any editor disagrees, and would rather re-stub it than improve it by adding actual content, please discuss here. The Editrix 17:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Why?

Can someone explain why such an elaborate piece of headgear is worn? Taxee 03:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a custom among Chareidi Jews, and in this case I dont mean just Chossidim. All Ashkenazic and Sefardic Jews who apply Kabboloh, wear, not only a kippa, but a hat as well. The Reason for this is explained as such. A human has a soul. A human's soul has five levels, called Kochos. The Nefesh, Ruach, and the Neshomoh. Those are the lower three. The loftier two are the Chaya and Yechida. We try, in wearing two headcoverings, to reach these loftier Kochos. That is why many married men cover their heads with their talleisim. Since it's annoying to try to wear a Tallis with a hat, and since it is a minhog accepted by all levels of Orthodox Yiddishkeit, as it was the way of showing a man was married in the times of the talmud. As to the elaborate nature for the Shtreimel, Ask a Chussid. --Shaul avrom 21:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There are a number of words that you used which are completely unfamiliar to me - Kabboloh, kippa, minhog. I am unable to ask a Chussid anything because I don't have a clue who or what that is. I attended a synagogue for my first time in Jerusalem earlier this year and sat in front of a man wearing a shtreimel. As I didn't have the opportunity to talk to him, I was curious as to why a person would wear something that looked so unwieldy. It also strikes me as odd that a hat can have a postive impact on a person's soul. I have added links and try to follow them but there are a few holes. Taxee 14:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention that the explanation provided is not the mainstream one. IIRC, it is for a similar reason as cobering ones head with a talis during tefillah (only if you are married, and that IS based on Kabbala -- see the Mishna Berurah there), which is a form of anivus, humility, as one prays before the Almighty. I forgot the Seif/Siman off the top of my head. -- Avi 01:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the "elaborateness" is also relative. Many Chassidim try to preserve a way of life current in the eastern European villages of the 17th Century when the Baal Shem Tov was launching the movement. Just as the Amish in Pennsylvania have sort of "stopped the clock" in the 1600s as a way of showing their "plainness" and simplicity, so too I think certain groups of Chassidim are trying to preserve cultural observances. The shtreimel, as I understand it, was no more elaborate then than a nice fedora or homburg would have been in the 1950s. But, because it is such a rare commodity these days, it is also super-expensive.HarvardOxon 22:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I just saw a documentary on hats in Jerusalem and the history behind them. There Chassidic Jews explained that the shtreimel had its origins in a decree in Europe that meant Jews had to wear fox tails and that the had was a development of this. The origins of the fox tails, apparantly, was that they had been worn by the crippled as a sign of being outcasts. Any comments on this?

Peter ^Isotalo 19:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

For a fact the hats are made of the tip of the fur tail . The reason for this is that because of a Russian Kings decree of claiming "all Jews to be lower than the end of the tail of an animal". The fur used ranged from Canadian sable, Russian sable, stone martin, bow marten and American grey fox. From the fur used the Canadian sable is the most expensive hat. Larger more flamboyant hats are merely a symbol of pride for those who can afford them.

Both the Shtreimel and spodik stem from a singular idea of a round fur hat that has existed for centuries, extending back to Babylonian times. The claim that the shtreimel originates from a decree of some form is one of the many maskil arguments that are essentially made up to demean the customs of the religious Jews (another common falsity is that it is the garb of polish kings). Much of chassidic dress is much older than the 17th century, few simply want to look that far. SF2K1

Where the heck does one buy one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by D shepherd harrison (talk • contribs) 14:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC) 1492 Columbus discovered America, which resulted in the influx of huge amounts of gold to Europe. Gold owners wanted to exchange them for luxury goods. At that time, furs were a luxury item and the most valuable was sable fur, called "soft gold", because it was worth as much gold as it weighed itself. In search of furs, the Russians will conquer all of Siberia and Russia, thanks to fur resources, has become an Empire. The fur trade was carried out by Jews who found refuge in Poland (most Jews in Western Europe were murdered during the Crusades). 90% of the inhabitants of Poland are slaves called serfs, without the right to leave their village. They farmed without pay in the fields of the aristocracy and nobility. The Jews, on the other hand, were engaged in trade and were free people, so they were close to the top of the social ladder. Fur hats were a sign of high social status, which is why they were fashionable among the Polish nobility. On the website (http://bractwo-kurkowe.pl/pl/aktualnosci/uroczystosci_sw_sebastiana_w_katedrze_wawelskiej_ks_infulat_dariusz_ras_kapelanem_bractwa_kurkowego.html) you can see the prototypes on which the sztreimel is modeled. Jews wore these hats following the example of the Polish nobility, in a similar way to how a modern Mercedes dealer drives the latest model to emphasize his status and brand advertising. In the middle of the 17th century El Dorado ended, Poland was destroyed by the Swedes and with the fall of Poland the Jewish community declined. Fur resources were exhausted, fashions changed, fur prices fell, and constant wars contributed to the birth of Hasidism, which was popular because it was a religious movement based on joy, which gave a springboard from the harsh reality. Hasidism was initially progressive and then became extremely conservative, which is why the shtreimel has survived to the present day. To sum up, shtreimel is, apart from religious themes, a memento of the era of fur trade by the Jewish community. http://www.intelros.ru/readroom/teoriya-mody/t27-2013/18970-v-nezhnyh-obyatiyah-laskovogo-zverya-pushnina-i-mehovye-izdeliya-v-srednevekovoy-rusi-xivxvi-vekov.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.152.123.100 (talk) 15:58, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

A coupla things...

I did a bunch of cleanup, and demanded a few reasonable citations...but I still can't figure out what is meant by "Bow Marten". Also, a pic would be nice, if anyone has one...the image that's commented out in the article presently also appears in the Hebrew version of the article...but its source there is attributed only to the EN: WP.  :-\ I added the Yiddish into the intro, and what I assume is the correct Yiddish plural... חג שמח, Tomer^talk 15:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

One thing at a time... I've removed reference to the "bow marten", since I can find absolutely no evidence whatsoëver that there even is such a thing as a "bow marten". It's possible it's a colloquial name for some other animal, the Pine Marten, perhaps; if so, and someone can find any evidence to support that, then that's what the article should say. Tomer^talk 02:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

people mistakenly refer to baum marten (aka pine marten) as bow marten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pkanma (talk • contribs) 20:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

uhhh?=

This, "The shtreimel was not exclusively Jewish.[citation needed] Eastern European men, especially of higher classes, wore fur hats (eg the modern day ushanka) due to the cold climate, which the local Jewish populace followed." Is probably Baal Teshuva silliness, and should be removed unless sourced. A shtreimel and an ushanka are completely different to a person fmaliar up close with either one. A shtreimel is just a formal Jewish hat. It's uniquely Jewish. A ushanka is made of furr. A shtreimel is a velvet pillbox hat decorated with fur. The goofy Russian king story up above doesn't explain why Hungarians, Czechs and Western Poles would wear them too. 79.183.238.8 (talk) 04:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

deletions

I have once again re added the section on the origin of the shtreimel. It is a well known fact that male Orthodox Jews are very conservative regarding head gear (how else can you explain the top hats and other defunct hats they still wear). Sadly this was once again deleted (I think by User:Piz d'Es-Cha). It is simply NOT allowed to delete ad naseum genuine additions to an article. Benqish (talk) 17:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

What is the origin of the word "shtreimel"? Is it pure Hebrew or Yiddish? Caeruleancentaur (talk) 15:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Likely from the Northern German word Stremel or Striemel (Old High German: strimulla) for strip or stripe https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striemel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C0:DF2B:FB00:A487:7A8C:F907:1DDF (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Maybe, it sounds the same/similar, but there are many popular etymologies based on how things sound–and they are plain wrong. We need proof from an academic source showing how it evolved from A to B, with historical examples. The jump from 'strip' to a fur hat is not impossible (strip of fur?), but not straightforward either. So - still waiting. Arminden (talk) 17:09, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Does the term "shtreimel" really include kolpik and spodik hats?

The article is written as if shtreimel would subsume kolpik and spodik, as well. The only picture here of a modern shtreiml shows what looks like a kolpik, according to its WP definition! Arminden (talk) 10:59, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

What is the shape of a shtreimel? No more real shtreimels nowadays?

The historical images suggest that a shtreimel must have a fur brim, with a well visible cap coming out of it (higher than the fur). A bit like a turban wound up around a still visible fez or kalpak. Or like the Mongol-style Monomakh's Cap or the Kazan Cap from old Russia. But modern Hasidic fur hats (see first photo on the page) tend to have such a high, cylindrical fur "tube" or "stovepipe" as a brim, that normally nothing can be seen of the actual cap hidden deep inside. Doesn't this qualify these hats as kolpiks (if brown) or spodiks (if black), rather than as shtreimels? Which would mean: there are no more shtreimels around! Or are they? Arminden (talk) 11:45, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

A shtreimel and the others are what the practitioners call them

In today's world (e.g., Hasidic Jerusalem, greater New York, Milwaukee) the velvet cap is typically invisible when the hat is seen straight on. The appearance of the typical spodik has a rather different visual ratio - narrower, taller. According to at ldast one source, the visibility of velvet cap is currently peculiar to one specific sect. Example: see the illustration and description at https://segulamag.com/en/articles/shtreimel-variations-history-hat/ Kromholz (talk) 19:37, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Etymology of word

In an effort to be properly encyclopedic, shouldn't we include at least a few words explaining the etymology and origin of this word to the article? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:34, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Origin unknown. There is a bunch of ungrounded speculations, some of them are really ridiculous. I am not sure whether they are encyclopedic. IMO thre most plausible is in #Etymology above. - Altenmann >talk 23:59, 25 June 2023 (UTC)