Talk:Shirvanis

Shirvanis

Hajji Piruz, Shirvanli is still used in Azerbaijan to refer to people originating from Shirvan region. The name of Arran is not used anymore, it is only the reference to the lowland plains of Mil, etc. In general, this topic is not encyclopedic, articles about the people from a certain region are rare. We might as well create articles about Karabakhis, Nakhcivanis, etc. --Grandmaster 06:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should create such articles, as these were legitimate classifications that were used prior to the term Azerbaijani being invented and used as an ethnic term. If the terms are important enough, they should be created. Shirvanis and Arranis are the most used ones that I know of. Please do not revert information based on your own person interpretations. I have yet to see any evidence presented by you.Hajji Piruz 16:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Shirvani was never used as an ethnic term. It was used to designate people from this region regardless of ethnicity. Mind WP:NOR and show me a source saying that Shirvani was a name for an ethnicity. Grandmaster 16:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The first line of the article clearly states: Shirvanis were the inhabitants of Shirvan. Please read the article. We, as users, cannot interpret sources. I have yet to see a single piece of evidence from you. Please refer to WP:NPOV and WP:NOR.Hajji Piruz 16:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. This is what I'm saying. Where is your source for this claim: The term Azerbaijani has supplanted Shirvani in modern usage? Where did you read that? Please quote. The term Shirvani is still in use, it denotes people from Shirvan. I am Shirvanli myself (my mother is from Shirvan). Grandmaster 16:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed OR until proper evidences presented--Dacy69 15:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed unsourced claims and reworded the text in accordance with what the sources actually say. --Grandmaster 11:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Shirvan was its own region, not part of Azerbaijan. I kept in your addition that its still used in the Republic of Azerbaijan today. You were just preaching to me that I should get consensus before making changes, yet here you are making changes without consensus. Interesting.Hajji Piruz 15:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

This is the same issue you failed to reach a consensus on Azerbaijani people. You duplicated the same claim in the articles Arranis and Shirvanis. Grandmaster 15:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed OR from the article. Swietochowski says nothing about the name of Azerbaijanis supplanting the name of Shirvanis. Grandmaster 05:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The Turkic speakering Muslims of Russian held Azerbaijan, commonly known as Shirvanis and sometimes by the medieval name of Arranis...

Swietochowski clearly says that Shirvani meant the Turkic speakers of the Russian Caucasus, so please stop changing the introduction and removing information from the last paragraph.

The term Azerbaijani DID supplant the term Shirvani, as well as Arrani, in general usage. You deny this? Then why do you call yourself an Azeri instead of a Shirvani/Arrani? Ofcourse the term has been supplanted.Hajji Piruz 05:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Shirvani was not an ethnonym, it was a reference to the regional affiliation of people. The name Shirvani was not supplanted, it still exists. We call all people from Shirvan Shirvanli. Grandmaster 05:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Revert

I just reverted the article but was not logged in. Anyways Shirvanis is not a ethnicy, its a regional name like Nakhchivani, Qazakhli, Shekili, etc it has nothing to do with ethnicy. Its a regional name. Baku87 11:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge

I don't see much reason for existence of a separate article about inhabitants of Shirvan. I suggest to merge it with the article about the region. Normally there are no articles about inhabitants of certain regions in Wikipedia, population is covered in the relevant section of the article about the region. Grandmaster (talk) 13:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm quite interested in the ethnic composition of the Shirvan state and would like to see this article to be expanded. Shirvan was a state when it was ruled by the Shirvanshah. Why don't we also merge Azerbaijani's with Azerbaijan? Your proposition did not make sense. -- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijanis are ethnicity, Shirvanis are not. Very simple. Do we have an article on Californians? Grandmaster (talk) 20:35, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

No but we have an article on the Swiss.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 20:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Swiss are nation, aren't they? Shirvanis are not. Grandmaster (talk) 21:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you trying to make a different point now? See Kurdish people. Also, I seem to recall not long ago you wanting to have an article on Caucasian Albanians. In additon we have cases on Wikipedia with the exact opposite, Mannae redirects to Mannaeans. -- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 01:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Kurds are ethnicity, and I did not want to have an article on Albanians, it got merged into Albania. Once again, Shirvanis are not an ethnicity, they are the same as Californians or New-Yorkers. Do we have an article on them? Grandmaster (talk) 08:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Back to square one? California and New York are subnational entities, Shirvan was a national entity (it was not a part of some greater body) thus Shirvanis are Americans not Californians or New Yorkers in the correct analogy.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

America is a vast continent, populated by many nations and ethnicities, Shirvan is a region in Azerbaijan. What is so special about people of Shirvan that makes them different from the rest of Azerbaijanis? Why do we need a special article to cover them and why the population of Shirvan cannot be covered in the article about Shirvan? I would not mind if population of Shirvan was indeed something different to population of other regions of Azerbaijan, but it's not. Grandmaster (talk) 16:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Once again Shirvan was a region after it ceased to be a state. It was a state prior to that. Shirvanis are the inhabitants of the state of Shirvan it has nothing to do with Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan is irrelevant.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 04:39, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Really? I'm Shirvani myself, you think that I have nothing to do with Azerbaijan? Grandmaster (talk) 08:58, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

No you're not. You're from the region of Shirvan but you cannot be Shirvani because you're an Azeri.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 10:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a very funny argument. Why an Azeri cannot be Shirvani, please explain? Is Shirvani an ethnicity? If not, what's the problem? Grandmaster (talk) 08:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Shirvan was and still is a historical region with various ethnic groups populating it. Shirvanis are not one of them. Even today, anybody from Shamakhi and its vicinity are considered Shirvani regardless of their ethnicity. If we go by what Eupator is suggesting, we might as well start an article called Vaspourakanis or Sasounians because Vaspourakan and Sasoun were also pricipalities at one point and later became historical regions. Parishan (talk) 10:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

A) People who inhabited Sassoun and Vaspurakan still exist and we have an article on them, see Armenians. B) Shirvanis no longer exist because the state doesn't exist. The article covers the inhabitants of that state. Very simple. I suggest an RFC or a straw poll to solve this matter. C) It's understandable that some people from that region are called Shirvanis today. So what? That doesn't make a Kurd from modern Sassoun, Armenian now does it?-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 10:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Shirvanis do exist today. On a historical level, Shirvanis were equal to Vaspurakanis and Sassounians, because they were not an ethnic group, but rather a "national" derivative of the name of their state. They practiced the same religion and spoke the same languages, as the people who inhabit that region nowadays. We already have articles on those, see Azerbaijani people, Tats, Mountain Jews, etc.

No, that does not make a Kurd from Sassoun Armenian, but it does make him Sassounian. Parishan (talk) 19:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Shirvanis exist today the same way Gauls exist today.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

You mean that people from Shirvan nowadays are not called Shirvanis? Grandmaster (talk) 13:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Shirvanis are people from the region of Shirvan regardless of ethnicity. As such, they are not notable for an article, the population of Shirvan could be covered in the article about the region. And saying that Shirvanis do not exist today is strange, I am Shirvani and I do exist. Grandmaster (talk) 08:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

In the same manner the Azerbaijani people article should be merged to Azerbaijan. I don't see any difference. Why don't you add a merge tag there?-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Because Azerbaijanis are an ethnicity, and live in many countries of the world. Shirvanis are not an ethnicity, they are just people from a certain region. Grandmaster (talk) 13:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Shirvanis were a nation and also lived in other nations. They are recorded in history. The article about Shirvan can talk about so called regional Shirvanis, but the people of the Shirvan state need their own article.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 13:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Really? And in what other states did these Shirvanis live? Can you provide one historical reference where Shirvanis are described as a distinct ethnic group? The reason I'm asking is because even the article itself doesn't define them as such, but rather as a collective term for various ethnic groups populating the region. Parishan (talk) 06:30, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with a merge as well. We need to build up a good article on historical Sherwan. Something like Arran. But the ethnicity Sherwani never really existed rather various people including Tats, Lezgins and then later Turcophone Azerbaijanis inhabited the area, but there is not a specific ethnicity by this name. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 17:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think we can create a section called "Population of Shirvan" and merge this article there. Grandmaster 07:14, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

As far as we all know, there was no separate ethnic identity of Shirvanis apart from historical-geographic region of Shirvan. Hence, there is no need for separate article on this subject, and I support the merger. Atabəy (talk) 05:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)