Talk:Self-portraiture

Self-portraiture

Maybe Self-Portraiture is deserving of an article.

See: Self-Portraiture - Oxford Scholarship Online: https://s18798.pcdn.co/christopherwood/wp-content/uploads/sites/2785/2016/05/Wood-Self-Portraiture.pdf Dinho Aarão (talk) 16:28, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The Oxford Companion to Western Art does not define self-portraiture as a field of study, rather, it talks about a propensity of any painter to depict himself: "The evidence suggests that virtually every painter has at some stage in his career made a portrait of himself". Викидим (talk) 07:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Definition

@Dinho Aarão: Dear colleague, The definition in the article is based on the book by Pierre Bourdieu. Can you quote the "chapter and verse"? Thank you in advance! Викидим (talk) 07:35, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your comment. The definition concerns what field means. There is an article on wikipedia itself that deals with the issue. See: Field theory (sociology) Dinho Aarão (talk) 08:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I am simply asking for a page number, so I do not have to read a large book that is referenced. I assume that there is a definition somewhere in this book. Викидим (talk) 08:53, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, again. Now I get it. There is a concise definition. I'll put it in the article.

Bourdieu’s Concept of Field - Sociology - Oxford Bibliographies

But, I'm just starting the article. Over time I will develop it. I kindly ask for your patience. Greetings

Dinho Aarão (talk) 15:18, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

In addition, I must say that at the end of the twentieth century, self-portraiture became an autonomous field in Art History, and the article will deal with this due to the enormous development of practices in producing self-portraits. Dinho Aarão (talk) 16:11, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

My concern is much simpler, pinging also @Toadspike: the very first statement defines the subject as field of study: "Self-portraiture, or Autoportraiture is the field of art theory". This contradicts the common-sense meaning of the word that defines the noun as an activity of the painter, a genre. The latter and simpler definition is confirmed by Oxford reference (provided at the bottom of the article): "notion of self-portraiture as visual autobiography" (bold font is mine). The three cites provided as a source in our article do not see to substantiate the sentence above:

1. Bourdieu, Pierre,Rules of Art: Genesis and Structure of the Literary Field is a large book, I failed to find the definition inside, asked Dinho Aarão for the page number, so far did not get it;
2. Swartz, David L. - Bourdieu’s Concept of Field is about Bourdieu's concept of field that appears to have nothing to do with the field of study and is indeed compared to all-permeating electromagnetic field and gravitation. In any case the article does not mention self-portraiture of even "portrait";
3. Piper, Rhiannon Piper. The Significance of Self-Portraiture quite conventionally defines self-portraiture as a practice of making self-portraits: "Self-portraiture, a practice embedded in the annals of art history".

So, the definition of self-portraiture as the field of art theory does not seem to be supported by the sources quoted. Викидим (talk) 17:54, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your comments. I will try to clarify the concept later for the clarification of the article. But, right away, I've already put sources that develop this theme. Anyway, I really appreciate your contribution because then I can improve the article. Greetings Dinho Aarão (talk) 18:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn't dive into the definition of "self-portraiture" in my NPP review, I just checked for notability, copyvios, and the like, so I have no strong opinions. However, your analysis seems accurate. Toadspike (talk) 18:39, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps, a merge into Self-portrait can be useful? Викидим (talk) 19:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Викидим (talk) and Toadspike (talk), I will try to develop this term more appropriately, because I think it is a relevant fact for the present time. I am convinced that it is still not satisfactory. Dinho Aarão (talk) 20:39, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

A quick search of Google Scholar confirms that this is a notable topic, though I would think "common sense" might also suffice! and I can't see anything in this article as it is now that seems particularly difficult to verify or WP:OR/WP:SYNTH. I've removed the tags as there are no *obvious* issues with this article. Psychastes (talk) 23:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The sources that I have found so far define the "self-portraiture" as creation of self-portraits. If these are the only sources, then a merge into Self-portrait is warranted (otherwise, thsi article is a possible WP:CFORK). It is easy to convince me by quoting a page number in an WP:RS that contains any other definition. Викидим (talk) 00:13, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Here is a review article from 1992 discussing "self-portraiture" as a field of study in art history. You can find numerous other monographs treating "self-portraiture" as a discrete topic on scholar as well so I'm really not sure where all of this skepticism is coming from? We have both atomic physics and atom for the field of study and the thing itself that the field studies, it's not clear to me why this would be any different. Psychastes (talk) 00:24, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I see no issue with the existence of a field of study. However, it does not look like this field of study is called "self-portraiture". The source you are referring to - in the very first sentence - talks about "study of self-portraiture", thus acknowledging the self-portraiture being somewhat of a synonym of a self-portrait. Perhaps, the title should be changed to Study of self-portraiture? I am still not sure that this would be deserve a separate article; cf. other genres, say, portraits: there is literally a gazillion of very reputable works dealing with Study of portraits (not Portraiture) - but we do not have a dedicated article. While at it, please note the section name Portrait#Self-portraiture that also uses the term in its commonly accepted meaning. Викидим (talk) 00:43, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

you're certainly welcome to propose a rename to "study of self-portraiture" if you'd like but I don't think that would be approved based on article naming conventions. At this point it seems that you acknowledge that the field of study exists that it's possible to write a wikipedia article on, so I'm not really inclined to engage with WP:OTHERSTUFF or any other concerns here. It's plain that we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this if it's not obvious to you that this can be an article at this point, so either nominate the article for deletion or renaming if you must, but please cease biting the newbie editor who has 37 edits by trying to push your own apparently high standards for a brand new article. Psychastes (talk) 00:52, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I am leaving this article in your capable hands. BTW, before engaging, I have checked, and the editor is not a novice, they have significant experience in Portuguese Wikipedia. Викидим (talk) 01:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC)