Talk:Safavid Iran/Archive 1

Archive 1

cite note numbers don't match (maybe partly a Wikipedia issue)

I know this may not be entirely related to this specific content, and may be a broader Wikipedia glitch, but I'm noting it here so someone can look at this. I notice that the reference links are kind of funny, maybe because this article was split off.

They start at 22, and that does seem to be linked properly to the right reference, but that reference is actually Safavid_Iran#cite_note-24. Meanwhile, Safavid_Iran#cite_note-5 actually goes to #3, and so on.

However, this may be partly Wikipedia's fault itself, because it would make more sense to me to always have those numbers line up, so that note 3 is at #cite_note-3 and so on. But in any event, maybe someone can clean up those references at some point in order to avoid confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.153.215 (talk) 14:28, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Geographic size ?

there is no mention for that here ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.161.83.224 (talk) 21:49, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

The empire lasted for almost 3 centuries and was surrounded by several neighbours, whom it often fought against, sometimes gaining, other times losing territory. That would be almost a copy of its history section, thus its not needed imo. HistoryofIran (talk)

Assessing sources.

Hello, everyone. I keep seeing these sources posted all over YouTube and in this exact order. I was wondering if I could get your opinions on the validity and reliability of these statements and sources:

• In Iran entered a period of relative obscurity and seclusion under two dynasties of Turkish origin: the Safavids and the Qajars.[1]

• The Safavids were of Turkish descent..[2]

• As with their Safavid predecessors, the new dynasty was of Turkish origin; and administrative institutions similar to those the Safavids had attempted to build up were revived.[3]

• There was a real need for the Safavids to disassociate themselves from their arch-foes by playing down their own Turkish origins.[4]

• The Divan of Shah İsmail, the founder of the Safavid Dynasty was written in Turkish, because he was of Turcoman origin.[5]

• The Safavids (1501–1722), two major dynasties of Turkish origin.[6]

• The modern history of Persia really begins with the rise of the SAFAVID dynasty in 1500. Although these rulers were also Turkish in origin, they espoused the SHITTE form of Islam and established a state.[7]

• The Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal Empires. Though political and ideological rivals, all three empires were of Turkic origin and belonged to the same Persianate cultural universe.[8]

• Form of Shi'ism under pressure from the Safavids, originally a Turkic Sufi order who were themselves former Sunnis.[9]

• The three Islamic empires of the early modern period – the Mughal, the Safavid, and the Ottoman – shared a common Turko-Mongolian heritage.[10]

• Safavid power with its distinctive Persian-Shi‘i culture, however, remained a middle ground between its two mighty Turkish neighbors. The Safavid state, which lasted at least until 1722, was essentially a "Turkish" dynasty, with Azeri Turkish (Azerbaijan being the family's home base) as the language of the rulers and the court as well as the Qizilbash military establishment.[11]

• Under the Safavids, the Azeri Turks came into conflict with the expanding Ottoman Turks[12]

• A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the l lth and l2th centuries not only Turkified Azerbaijan but also Anatolia. The Azeri Turks are Shi'ites and were founders of the Safavid dynasty.[13]

• The modern history of Persia really begins with the rise of the *Safavid Dynasty in 1500. Although these rulers were also Turkish in origin, they espoused the Shi'ite form of Islam.[14]

• The Caucasus was a battleground between the Sunni Ottoman Empire and the Turkic Shia Safavid Dynasty of Persia.[15]

• Shah Isma'il I (1500-24), the founder of the Safavid dynasty of Azeri origin, made the Shi'a branch of Islam.[16]

• This family, reported by some sources to be of Azerbaijani origin[17]

• Three major Islamic empires emerged, all with Turkic roots to varying degrees: those of the Ottomans (1300–1922), Safavids (1501–1722), and Moghuls (1526–1858).[18]

• The Ottoman eastward expansion was stalled by the rise of another Turkish dynasty, the Safavids, in Persia.[19]

• The Safavid Turks, who had their genesis in a Shia dervish order in Azerbaijan.[20]

• Selim I captured the Capital Tebriz also and thus put a check on the growth of the military power of the Safavid Turks.[21]

• “gunpowder empires”: the Empire of the Ottoman Turks (centered in Turkey), that of the Safavid Turks (centered in Iran or Persia)[22]

• Discuss the religious and political issues that separated the Ottoman Turks and the Safavid Turks.[23]

• See Ottoman Empire; Safavid Turks Turks, 10 revolt against, 225 Safavid, 30 Twelver branch.[24]

• In the early 16th century, the Azeri dynasty of the Safavids ( r. 1501–1736 ) took power in Tabriz and developed a culture that influenced much of the region.[25]

• Of three great empires: the Mughals in South Asia, the ?afavids in Persia, and the Ottomans in the west. The three empires shared basic features such as Turkic dynastic origins.[26]

• What most Iranians are not told (neither by the Shia clergy nor ultra-Iranian nationalits) is how the Turkic Safavids slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Persians (Sunnis), starting with the elite, the thinkers and scholars.[27]

• The rule of the Turkic Safavids completed the process of linguistic Turkicisation of modern Azerbaijanis which was initiated by the Seljuks in the eleventh century.[28]

• Buyids (Iranian) (945—1055) . Ghaznavids (Turkic) (994—1030) . Seljuks (Turkic) (1045—1217). Mongol/Ilkhanid Dynasties (Turkicized Mongols) (1221—1338) . Timurids and Turkmen (Turkic) (1383—1501) . Safavids (Turkic) (1501—1722)[29]

• Although arising from a local, originally Sunni Sufi order in Azerbaijan, the Turkish Safavids speedily became the vigorous upholders of Shi'ism.[30]

• The Safavid and Qajar dynasties,rulers in Iran from 1501 to 1722 and from 1795 to 1925 respectively,were Turkic in origin[31]

• Understands political achievements of the Safavid and Mughal Empires, how Persia was unified by the Turkic Safavids.[32]

• Therefore, the student is able to: 5-12 Explain the unification of Persia under the Turkic Safavids.[33]

• To bolster its legitimacy, the Turkish Safavid dynasty created the fiction of an ancestral link.[34]

• The Turkic origin of the Safavid dynasty,which is rarely acknowledged in u conventional Turkish nationalist historiography.[35]

• Shah Ismail, a Turk of the Shi'i sect of Islam, arose as leader of both Turkic and Iranian adherents of this sect, who placed more emphasis upon religion than upon ethnic origin.[36]

• The Safavids were originally Turkic, ghazis like the Osmanlis and succeeded, like them, in distancing possible rivals.[37]

• The Safavids were descended from a family of Turkmen Sufi sheikhs from Ardabil, in Azerbaijan.[38]

• In the early 1500s, a thirteen-year-old Turkmen named Ismail, who lived in western Iran, conquered the whole country[39]

• Yet even Iran's foreign conquerors — such as the Turkic Safavid, Afshar, and Qajar dynasties.[40]

Sources:

• 1-Women, Religion and Culture in Iran
• 2-World History DeMYSTiFieD Stephanie Muntone McGraw Hill Professional-Page 238
• 3-Modern Persian Prose Literature-Page 9
• 4-Comparative History of Civilizations in Asia: 10,000 B.C. to 1850 Edward L. Farmer Westview Press-Page 430
• 5-Cultural Horizons: A festschrift in honor of Talat S. Halman,Volume 1 Jayne L. Warne Syracuse University Press, 2001
• 6-Women's History in Global Perspective,Volume 3-Page 82
• 7-New Catholic Encyclopedia: A-Azt-Page 140
• 8-The Eckstein Shahnama: An Ottoman Book of KingsWill Kwiatkowski Sam Fogg,2005-Page 9
• 9-Religions of Iran: From Prehistory to the Present-Page 192
• 10-Safavid, Mughal,and Ottoman Empires(Cambridge University Press)
• 11-Turko-Persia in Historical Perspective(Cambridge University Press)-Page 86–87.
• 12-Global Security Watch—The Caucasus States-Page 3
• 13-Iran II: Iranian history - Iran V: Peoples of Iran,Volume 3 Ehsan Yarshater The Encyclopaedia Iranica Foundation,2006-Page 325
• 14-New Catholic Encyclopedia-Volumr 1.-18.-Page 16
• 15-Caucasus:Oxford Bibliographies Online Research Guide-Page 3
• 16-Eastern Europe, Russia and Central Asia 2003-Page 104
• 17-Azerbaijan, Mosques, Turrets, Palaces Ilona Turánszky Corvina Kiadó,1979-Page 21
• 18-The Turks in World History(Oxford University Press)-Page 94
• 19-Conflict, Conquest, and Conversion: Two Thousand Years of Christian Missions in the Middle East(Columbia University Press)
• 20-The Rising Tide of Cultural Pluralism: The Nation-state at Bay?(Univ of Wisconsin Press)
• 21-Proceedings of the All Pakistan Political Science Conference,Volume
• 22-Expansion and Global Interaction, 1200-1700 David R. Ringrose Longman,2001-Page 135
• 23-Student Study Guide and Map Exercise Workbook to accompany Traditions and Encounters,Volume 2 BENTLEY McGraw-Hill Companies,Incorporated
• 24-The Politics of the Middle East Monte Palmer F.E. Peacock Publishers,2002-Page 425
• 25-Grove Encyclopedia of Islamic Art & Architecture: Three-Volume Set(Oxford University Press)-Page 236
• 26-The Oxford Encyclopedia of Islam and Politics Emad Eldin Shahin, ?Peri J. Bearman, ?Sohail H. Hashmi - 2014
• 27-Son of Sunnah-Persian Sunni scholars VS the King of the Safavids
• 28-Routledge Handbook of the Caucasus
• 29-Christianity in Persia and the Status of Non-Muslims in Modern Iran-Page 275
• 30-Encyclopaedia of Islam Ian Richard Netton-Page 570
• 31-Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and the Middle East-Page 707
• 32-Content knowledge: a compendium of standards and benchmarks for K-12 education John S. Kendall, Robert J. Marzano Mid-continent Regional Educational Laboratory,1996-Page 243
• 33-National standards for history National Center for History in the Schools (U.S.), Charlotte Antoinette Crabtree, Gary B. Nash-Page 180
• 34-Government and Politics of the Contemporary Middle East: Continuity and change-Page
• 35-New Perspectives on Turkey,36-37.-Page 230
• 36-The Middle East and South Asia,Stryker-Post Publications,1968-Page 10
• 37- The History of the World JJohn Morris Roberts, Odd Arne Westad (Oxford University Press)-Page 403
• 38-The Safavids and their Successors - The David Collection
• 39- Iran the People – Page 10
• 40- Iran and the world: continuity in a revolutionary decade(Indiana University Press)-Page 11

Let me know what you guys think. Thanks. 64.46.27.23 (talk) 01:00, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Azeri Turkish

Citation 15 mentions that Azerbaijani was mother tongue of the dynasty as wel as poetry language. Worth mentioning in infobox. Beshogur (talk) 01:22, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Isn't "native language" a better phrase than "mother tongue"? Both mean the same thing though. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 10:23, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Sentence revision

The first sentence of section 2.5 reads, "In addition to fighting its perennial enemies, their archrival the Ottomans and the Uzbeks as the 17th century progressed, Iran had to contend with the rise of new neighbors." This is hard to read. Here is a revision to make the sentence easier to understand: "As the 17th century progressed, Iran had to not only fight the Ottomans and the Uzbeks, but also the rise of new enemies." Faxmachinechecker (talk) 16:10, 26 January 2021 (UTC) 10:11, 26 January 2021 (CT)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 March 2021

Safavid is Turk! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qedirmellim (talk • contribs) 05:14, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Debated extensively in the past and you haven't provided sources. Your own research is irrelevant. They were of Kurdish origin as stated in the source material. ParthikS8 (talk) 15:33, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Safavid Iran/Safavid Empire

Basically "Safavid Iran" was Safavid Empire, so it would be probably better to redirect it into "Safavid Empire". Harrapocentrist (talk) 17:50, 26 May 2021 (UTC) <--- CU blocked sock of User:Aglrochisat

Kurdish

Why isn‘t Kurdish one of the Commonlanguages?! Since there was a Huge part of Kurdistan in the Empire, and Kurdish language played much more rule there, because it was also the third, sometimes also second most speaken language at this empire. So it deserves his place.

Sorry but with that logic we would have to add about 10 other languages. The infobox is meant to display languages of at least some importance during this era, which Kurdish is not in this instance. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:21, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Map

@Cattette: Hi Cattette. Once again, thanks for more of these pretty sweet looking maps. However, the map is based on the previous one, which unfornunately isn't that accurate - both when it comes to size and names. The Caucasus frontier, for example looked like this Map 3 and this was its provinces Map 4. Moreover, Baghdad/Iraq was for two very brief moments controlled by the Safavids, the map indicates otherwise. Perhaps that could be shown kinda like the Sasanian Empire map which has its briefly controlled areas lighter? Perhaps my (unfinished) Safavid map could be of help? [1] It was pretty much done, just needed to make the Iraq area lighter and perhaps readjust the eastern border just a bit. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:25, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Safavid dynasty ( mother language )

The army language and the dynastic language of the Safavid dynasty were Turkic (Azerbaijani), but why was it not specified? Zamuel2000m (talk) 20:25, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<--- CU blocked sock of User:Aydın memmedov2000

See where it says Azerbaijani in the infobox. See the letter "c". Click on that and you get a listing.

• "Court,[18][19][20] religious dignitaries, military,[16][21][22][23] mother tongue,[16] poetry[16]"

Look specified to me.--Kansas Bear (talk) 20:40, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2021

The Safavid dynasty had its origin in the Safavid order of Sufism, which was established in the city of Ardabil in the Azerbaijan region. [32]. It was an Iranian dynasty of Kurdish origin[33]. Still, during their rule, they intermarried with Turkoman,[34] Georgian,[35] Circassian,[36][37]. Pontic Greek[38] dignitaries; nevertheless, they were Turkish-speaking and Turkified. [39]. From their base in Ardabil, the Safavids established control over parts of Greater Iran. They reasserted the Iranian identity of the region,[40] thus becoming the first native dynasty since the Sasanian Empire to establish a national state officially known as Iran. Davidjohn3303 (talk) 06:18, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:43, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Unclear origin

I didn't refuse the kurdish origin theory but it's a reality with no doubt that safavid origin is unclear they may were kurdish or turkic and we don't know their actual origin well so my argument is good and stay in the page. Mehmet93069 (talk) 14:58, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

• "but it's a reality with no doubt that safavid origin is unclear"

According to whom? - LouisAragon (talk) 15:43, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Their origins

Can we consider them turko-kurdish if they were turkified kurds? Mehmet93069 (talk) 15:05, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

We can't if there are no WP:RS that mention "Turko-Kurdish". - LouisAragon (talk) 15:45, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

we can mention turko-persian Mehmet93069 (talk) 16:05, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Turki Ajemi (Persian Turkish)?

I would like to add an additional note to Azerbaijani at the infobox, for example this text:

More specifically "Ajemi Turkic", an Azerbaijanian koiné that functioned as lingua franca in the Caucasus region and in southeastern Dagestan. It is also mentioned below in the article by another author as "Turc Agemi" 'Persian Turkish' (Türki-yi Acemi)[2] Opinions? Beshogur (talk) 13:55, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

First of all, that is not the correct book. The one you are citing is the first edition chapter 14 written by Claus Schonig, which does not state Ajemi Turkic. The second edition is the correct book.(unfortunately I have not found page numbers for this book)

How do you propose to integrate this with the sources that cite Azerbaijani Turkish in this article? --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:08, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear: Ok I understand. But my idea was, perhaps by a note tag, to explain more specifically what's Ajemi Turkish is. Beshogur (talk) 11:38, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

I guess I still do not understand. Why should Ajemi Turkish be mentioned in this article, when this article makes no mention of it? Can you post an example of the proposed note? --Kansas Bear (talk) 14:40, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

See quote of mentioned below by É. Á. Csató. Imo Azerbaijani is simply vague. For example we don't have any article or any research on wikipedia how Azerbaijani was some centuries ago. I've put a tq above, maybe something like that? Also similarly on Afsharid Iran, there's no mention what Turkic language Nader Shah spoke. We've put Turkic but that's vaguely enough. Beshogur (talk) 15:17, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

• "Imo Azerbaijani is simply vague."

Well, if the source says Safavid(s) wrote/spoke poetry, court language, etc, in Azerbaijani then that is what we write.

As for your quote/note, you need something that ties it to Safavid Iran or why else be adding it to this article? Maybe something like, "Ajemi-Turkish became the lingua franca in the Caucasus region and southeastern Dagestan, during the Safavid Empire. Even finding usage as language of the court and military.", or "The lingua franca in the Caucasus and southeastern Dagestan regions, during the Safavid Empire, was Ajemi-Turkish.". --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:35, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Actually the source (Lars Johanson) says "Starting with the Safavid dynasty (1501-1736), an Azerbaijanian koiné referred to as "Ajemi Turkic" functioned as as lingua franca in the Caucasus region and in southeastern Dagestan. This transregional Turkic variety was widely spoken at the court and in the army.", not that I say it was spoken at that time. Beshogur (talk) 13:49, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

References

"The Safavids ruled from 1501 to 1722 (experiencing a brief restoration from 1729 to 1736 and 1750 to 1773) and, at their height, they controlled all of what is now Iran, Republic of Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Armenia, eastern Georgia, parts of the North Caucasus including Russia, Iraq, Kuwait, and Afghanistan, as well as parts of Turkey, Syria, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan." It would come as a great surprise to the Russians to learn that they are located in the North Caucasus and were conquered by Iran. Also this implies Iraq, Kuwait, and Afghanistan are in the North Caucasus.129.15.66.197 (talk) 16:49, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Kurdish language of the Safavids?

As it is generally accepted that the Safavid Dynasty was one of Kurdish origin, would it be appropriate to list Kurdish under the language infobox? Praxeria (talk) 04:24, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

While they were of Kurdish origin, they were heavily Turkified and likely did not speak Kurdish. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 10:12, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Confusion of Dynasty with State

As it stands, the current wording implies that the empire itself was turkified and turkish speaking, when rather it is the ruling family who were turkified and turkish speaking, as stated in the cited source. Edit to distinguish between dynasty and state/subjects, who were largely not turkified.

Proposed edit: An Iranian dynasty rooted in the Sufi Safavid order founded by Kurdish sheikhs, the ruling family heavily intermarried with Turkoman, Georgian, Circassian, and Pontic Greek dignitaries and was Turkish-speaking and Turkified.

Safavid Iran was not an Iranian dynasty rooted in [...] (that would be the Safavid Dynasty), and as the information pertains to the ruling dynasty rather than the state as a whole, the wording could benefit from clarification of this point. 2603:7000:9F00:C6A:89E7:7945:8ECD:CB7C (talk) 03:48, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Kurdish

Since a big part of the Kurdistan was occupied by Safavids, one of the common languages of Safavids was Kurdish. My question is that: Why Wikipedia sensors every thing about Kurds? amedcj 10:59, 17 December 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amedcj~enwiki (talk • contribs)

What do you suggest, that we add the 30 different languages spoken in Safavid Iran onto the infobox? I'm not even gonna answer your other remark. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:36, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

What a ridiculous thing to say. Kurdish should be up there as they spoke Kurdish and were originally a Kurdish dynasty. It's of importance and extremely silly of an excuse to not add Kurdish amongst the languages. 70.29.14.47 (talk) 08:34, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

You're replying to a 2 year old comment in a WP:FORUM manner, applause. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:15, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I am staying on topic and stating facts. No where in the rules does it say that I cannot agree or oppose a request of edit that has past more than 12 months. I read the link you have posted and it does not apply here. 70.29.14.47 (talk) 00:16, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

@70.29.14.47 "they spoke a Kurdish language", is there any source to support this claim? Hamzakat (talk) 04:45, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Nader Shah

List of Safavid grand viziers doesn't show him. Any source on the date? Can someone verify here? Beshogur (talk) 18:17, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

My idea is to add his job to his infobox as well. But need some sources. Beshogur (talk) 18:24, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

,with a turkman language and the turkman army of qizilbash,isnt it?

But its a turkman dynasty,a turkman empire,turkic language,turkic leaders,turkic tribes,isnt it? HistoryOfTurks100 (talk) 08:49, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Nope, read what the reliable sources say.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:17, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2023

46.32.177.200 (talk) 11:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

This is not truth. Safavid is Empire and first shah is SHAH ISMAYIL KHATAYI. He was Azerbaijanian not persian. And This empire is not persian.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 18:40, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2023

In history session, under "decline", paragraph 6, change "irano-russian" with "russo-iranian". Virayeshme (talk) 12:28, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: no reason given for the proposed change. M.Bitton (talk) 19:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)