Talk:Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky/Archive 4

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Archive 5

External link - Beckmann?

The external (http://www.fortfreedom.org/other/tchaik.htm) link to a nearly incoherent article by someone named Beckmann, about how discussion of the composer's sexual orientation is part of the propogandistic promotion of homosexuality (my characterization), is not a fitting link for this biographical entry. There are dozens if not hundreds of more appropriate links. Thoughts? DavidH (talk) 02:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the Beckmann article is little more than a rant and has no place in this article. Along with the poor quality of the Beckmann article, the discussion of Tchaikovsky's homosexuality in this Wiki article is already handled in an even-handed manner; it is hard to imagine what more could safely be added to the discussion. I am all for removing the link. Jonyungk (talk) 03:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed this and came to the discussion page to see if it had been addressed. I'm in total agreement that it's quite out of place here, not to mention extremely outdated. No one in the academy seriously questions Tchaikovsky's sexuality any more. As I'm the third, I'll remove it. Terez27 (talk) 17:57, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you -- agree it should come out. Hadn't read the article for a while so I didn't notice it was still there. Antandrus (talk) 18:20, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

This "Beckmann" external link is disgusting because of its bad faith : it is entirely based on a voluntary false interpretation of a letter partially censored in 1986 (Beckmann's text is not very new as you can see), but now entirely disclosed. That the letter was about homosexuality was clear enough in 1986 :

"I am so set in my habits and tastes that it is not possible to cast them aside all at once like an old glove. And besides, I am far from possessing a will of iron, and since my last letters to you I have already surrendered some three times to the force of my natural tendencies. Would you imagine !"

But in 1986, Beckmann wrote these "natural tendencies" were alcoholism because Tchaikovsky was orthodox and therefore couldn't have been a homosexual !!! Fortunately, the letter is now entirely uncensored :

"One of these days I even went to Bulatov’s country estate, and his house is nothing but a pederastic bordello. As if it were not enough that I had been there, I felle in love as a cat with his coachman !!! So you are prefectly right when you say in your letter that it is not possible to restrain oneself, despites all vows, from one’s weaknesses."

It's a rather good occasion to see the bad faith of homophobic "scholars" ! 90.3.58.105 (talk) 21:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

http://www.thewire.com/entertainment/2013/08/sorry-russia-tchaikovsky-was-definitely-gay/68679/

http://rictornorton.co.uk/tchaikov.htm http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/forum/forum0028.html http://www.homohistory.com/2012/10/tchaikovskys-passionate-life-and-tragic.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/tchaikovsky/atoz/tchaik_h.shtml 194.153.110.6 (talk) 14:25, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Album for the Young / album pour enfants op. 39

If useful I'll like to provide my interpretation and free/public recording of the 24 pieces of his album for the young as a additional weblink: https://soundcloud.com/robertvonheeren/pjiotr-iljitsch-tschaikovsky-album-for-the-young-op39 Non commercial, I'm a studied musician and the interpretation is strictly according to his scores. Pianorob (talk) 16:55, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Ukrainian ancestry

Around July 2012, a number of edits were made (the latest made clumsily here) to suggest that Tchaikovsky had significant Ukrainian ancestry. This was tidied up by another editor here with the comment "corrected spacing etc., but is the alteration to the text correct?". No one, it seems, ever replied - or at least the text was still here in that form until today. I have now removed it, since its attachment to Holden is clearly specious and no other citation has been offered for this alleged ancestry, which another editor today has been making a deal out of (which is what caught my attention). Please do not reinstate any of this information without such a citation. Alfietucker (talk) 11:40, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually it seems that Ukrainian ancestry can be confirmed. For example, see the following paragraph from a book published by Princeton University Press in 1998: "On his father's side, Tchaikovsky's origin may be traced to the Ukrainian village Nikolaevka in the Poltava region. His great-grand-father was an eighteenth-century Ukrainian Cossack named Fedor Chaika.". It would be better to add this sentence as is, plus citation, instead of the previous correction. Gena (talk) 08:13, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

If he has Ukrainian Cossack ancestory then why cannot we put "from ukrainian and French descent? Yes he was mostly Russian, but disregarding that he was Also Ukrainian is false information. The amount of times Russia is mentioned I am this article is ridiculous. Peter Stasiw (talk) 14:50, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

"his great Grandfather" was an eighteenth century..." Do you intend to include where the other 7 great grandparents came from, or do they not matter? is it just the Ukrainian nationalism you want to emphasise?

Here is a clarification on Tchaikovsky's grandfathers: Fedir Opanasovych Chaika was his great-grandfather from Kremenchuk, Ukraine. He was in the rank of Ukrainian Cossack's Centurion, participated in Polatava Battle, and died from wounds. His son Peter (composer's grandfather) was born near Poltava, Ukraine and studied medicine at Kiev-Mohyla Academy in Ukraine. He changed his surname to Tchaikovsky. He was drafted by Russian government to participate in Russian-Turkish war, and after serving as a regiment's doctor, became a Mayor Slobodskoj and Glasov Vyatskij Province. Sources: http://library-sumy.com/sumy/people_sumy/connection/chaykovskiy/biography.php http://library.vnmu.edu.ua/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Petro-CHajkovskyj.pdf Considering the fact that Thaikovsky's father's side was from Ukraine, that his output was largely based on Ukrainian subject matter, motifs, and melodies, as well as his long and often visits of Ukraine, it would be only right to list him as "Russian composer of Ukrainian descent". Slavuta33 (talk) 23:44, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

In those years, no one seriously considered Ukrainians apart from the Russian people. Your claims are very stupid. 217.19.216.243 (talk) 10:42, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Review

Received word from the FA team that this article is listed for review. The only thing that seemed in question was the article's length. On one hand, I can see the team's point—compared to 76K bytes for Ludwig van Beethoven, the current length of 126K for Tchaikovsky might seem a bit much. On the other hand, considering the events and questions that surround Tchaikovsky's life, the length could to some degree be justified. Over the next few weeks, I will look over the article and see where we might give a comparable amount of material in fewer words. Please address any concerns here over this process as they arise and I will be glad to address them. Thank you in advance for your help.Jonyungk (talk) 21:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I've re-edited the article to just under 84K bytes. All the basic information is still there. A lot of extraneous detail, which might better suit related articles rather than the main (general) one, went by the wayside and I've streamlined the writing on the whole to read better. Otherwise, for all intents and purposes, this is the same article in content and structure. I'll likely go through this one more time, after I've reviewed some other articles, but how things look now might be close to how the final edit will appear. If you have any questions or concerns, please post them here and I'll address them as soon as I can. Thanks again.Jonyungk (talk) 21:56, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Anyone with mad infobox-making skills?

My question's not directly related to Pete, but, being a featured article, I figured it would be a good place to ask.

I was wondering if anyone agreed that there should be a musical composer infobox. I was just looking at the Mozart, Beethoven, Handel, and Tchaikovsky articles, and the lack of one kind of annoyed me. Worst comes to worst, there's always this. Rockhead126 (talk) 21:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

There is a consensus to avoid info-boxes for classical music articles. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music#Biographical_infoboxes. Regards. Tim riley (talk) 20:13, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

From: "Classical music Guidelines"

"Infoboxes are neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article. However, current consensus among project participants holds that biographical infoboxes are often counterproductive on biographies of classical musicians, including conductors and instrumentalists, because they often oversimplify issues and cause needless debates over content; and that they should not be used without first obtaining consensus on the article's talk page."

Let’s reach consensus then because i think the infobox just look way more aesthetic. Il giovane bello 73 (talk) 00:30, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

How T. died

"While Tchaikovsky's death has traditionally been attributed to cholera, most probably contracted through drinking contaminated water several days earlier from the local river..."

While her certainly died of cholera contracted by drinking infected water, he equally certainly did not wander down to the river and dip a cup in. PiCo (talk) 21:02, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. Maineartists (talk) 21:45, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Death

In the section Death: the sentence "On 28 October/9 November 1893 Tchaikovsky conducted the premiere of his Sixth Symphony ..." makes absolutely no sense. How could he conduct the premiere on two separate dates? Furthermore, the inline citation links to a Wikipedia article (which I thought was not a reliable source). Could someone clear up this matter? Thank you. Maineartists (talk) 02:52, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

See note 2 in the article: russia was not using Gregorian calendar, dates are given for both calendars. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 13:57, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, IdreamofJeanie! An interesting fact! I'm still a bit confused. The note says: "Dates are expressed here in the same style as the source from which they come ..." As I am ignorant of this, the link states October 16 / 28, so the editor of this article (for whatever reason) adjusted the old style to: 9 November ... incorrectly? Thanks for clearing this up! Maineartists (talk) 21:29, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

"gay" versus "homosexual"

Recently, there's been the addition and removal of the phrase, "As expected from a homosexual individual..." to "Tchaikovsky displayed an unusually wide stylistic and emotional range, from salon works of innocuous charm to symphonies of tremendous depth, power and grandeur." Two points. First, as far as I know, heterosexual artists can also displace such a range and expectations in that regard can appear more or less universal. Second, as mentioned when this article went through FAR, the term "homosexual" is considered dated and currently negative in relation to a person's orientation. The term "gay" is now preferred. Please see WP:GAY? Thanks.17:23, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Homosexual is more correct. Gay has too many connotations. Peter Stasiw (talk) 14:52, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

Please improve the article by adding Infobox, I hate having to scroll all over the article to find basic facts. --Jarekt (talk) 12:09, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Melody

"They did not write in the regular, symmetrical melodic shapes that worked well with sonata form, such as those favored by Classical composers such as Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven, but were complete and independent in themselves." – in just about every Classical sonata-rondo form you will find melodies that are "complete and independent in themselves" as well as "regular [and] symmetrical", so I confess to being slightly confused by the second half of this sentence. Double sharp (talk) 12:56, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 March 2019

Change source of repertorie to repertorie ILikeTurtles1234567 (talk) 01:31, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NiciVampireHeart 05:26, 11 March 2019 (UTC)