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Talk:Pierre Boulez/GA1

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Latest comment: 6 years ago by Martinevans123 in topic GA Review

GA Review

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Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 12:09, 29 April 2018 (UTC)Reply


Starting first read-through. More anon. Tim riley talk 12:09, 29 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Initial comments

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Let me say at the outset that unless on second or subsequent readings I find some problem that hasn't been apparent during a first reading I shall certainly be promoting this article to GA. But it is inordinately long – more than twice the median word count of existing Featured Articles on classical composers – and will therefore take me some time to review in the detail it demands. Here, meanwhile, are a few points I jotted down during my first perusal:

  • 1946–1953: Early career in Paris
    • "Barrault needed someone to play the instrument" – what instrument? (Ondes Martinot from the previous para, perhaps, but it isn't clear).
      • it is the ondes Martenot. I've combined the first two paras, does that solve it? I'd rather avoid repeating ondes Martenot if I can as its a bit of a mouthful. Tried shortening it to 'the ondes' but that looks odd. Dmass (talk) 09:53, 30 April 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • 1971–1977: London and New York
    • "it was praised as one of the great Wagner productions" – by whom? As I recall, it was regarded by the irreverent as unintentionally hilarious but I don't remember a consensus that it was "great".
      • Point taken. You're right it got some very bad press in the first year when it was undercooked. I'm away from home and books for the next week but will find something more precise for this. Dmass (talk) 09:57, 30 April 2018 (UTC)Reply
      • I think Millingon captures the point neatly. I see this is also where I got the 'unprecedented naturalism' point in the Opera section and have linked that to this article too. Dmass (talk) 17:51, 6 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • "Perhaps unsurprisingly, few new works emerged" – WP:EDITORIAL which will have to go.
      • Gone
    • "scarcely less groundbreaking than the Ring" – says who?
    • "each of which focussed" – if, as appears, this is in BrE, "focused" is wanted here. It's one of those odd spellings like "biased", "budgeted", and "benefited" that haven't got the double letter one might reasonably expect.
  • 1992–2006: Return to conducting
    • "Le sacre du printemps" – you called it The Rite of Spring earlier. No obvious reason to be internally inconsistent.
  • Character and personal life
  • Opera
    • On the basis that we should where possible refer to people by the name they prefer, it would be a courtesy to pipe Bernard Shaw, though of course I can't insist on it.

I'll return to a thorough rereading and review in midweek, I hope. But, as I say, the quality of this article is not in doubt. Tim riley talk 21:51, 29 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Detailed comments

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Here they are. I may amend or add over the next few days if I reread the article once again, but this is the bulk of what I have to offer by way of suggestion and comment.

  • Lead
    • "Boulez studied at the Conservatoire de Paris" – in the main text he studied at the Paris Conservatoire. Either seems fine, but it would be as well to be consistent.
      • Changed later ref
    • "a reputation which softened" – do reputations soften? Seems a curious word.
    • Third para: MOS:JOBTITLES bids us prune the capital letters from such job titles as Chief Conductor.
      • Done
    • "he received 26 Grammy Awards" – this verges on trivia in an article about classical music. There are more important awards for recordings of serious music, such as the Grand Prix du Disque and the Gramophone awards which should be mentioned in preference if you must drag in awards. As these Grammies receive precisely three words in the main text, in a section that gives more space to the University of Louisville Grawemeyer Award for Music Composition I doubt that they merit mention in the lead.
  • 1925–1943: Childhood and school days
  • 1943–1946: Musical education
    • "Olivier Messiaen" – perhaps link at first mention in the main text.
    • "René Leibowitz, a follower of Schoenberg" – rather more than that: wasn't he a pupil of Schoenberg?
      • He claimed to be, but wasn't. According to WP he studied with Ravel (of all people...)
        • Well, well! No-one has told the author of Grove's article on Boulez, which asserts sans phrase that Leibowitz was "Schoenberg's pupil". The Grove article on Leibowitz says there is no substantiation for the claim. I have dropped the editor a line pointing out the contradictory statements. (I don't think Leibowitz studied with Ravel either. The source cited for that claim in the WP article doesn't mention Ravel, and there is no mention of Leibowitz in any of the books on Ravel that I consulted when overhauling the Ravel article for FAC.) Tim riley talk 09:41, 4 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • "the only member of Messiaen's class to achieve this distinction" – do you mean the only one in that year or the only one tout court?
    • "organized a petition" – the article seems mostly to go for –ise endings, and the few –ize endings (organized, specializing, apologized) strike an obtrusive note. (Of course the ones in quotations needn't, probably shouldn't, be changed.)
      • Corrected. The random '-ized's are just spellcheck butting in. Will change the rest when I get home and have a Find/Replace function.
  • 1946–1953: Early career in Paris
    • "Music Director" – see MOS:JOBTITLES and change to lower case, I'd say.
    • "whilst leaving him time" – I'm never sure what "whilst" has got that "while" hasn't except for an extra letter and a slightly fusty air. There are four other whilsts in the text, too.
    • "in 1951 they gave a season of plays at St James's Theatre in London at the invitation of Laurence Olivier" – this is the sort of incidental detail that is admirable in a book, but is surplus to requirements in an encylopaedia article. How does the name of the theatre, or its manager, however eminent, matter in an article about Boulez's life and works? I don't speak ex cathedra: I'm sometimes just as guilty in such matters, but as editors it is our job to sift out everything that is not of central importance to the topic.
      • Cut. I think I just liked the idea of the young PB knocking around with Olivier.
    • "Théâtre de l'Odéon" – no harm in linking to Odéon-Théâtre de l'Europe.
    • "In October 1951, whilst Boulez was in London" – is this relevant to a row in Germany?
  • 1954–1959: The Domaine Musical
    • The MoS asks us to avoid definite articles in headers where possible. I think this one would be OK without the article, but if you disagree I shall not argue.
    • "he started a concert series at the Petit Marigny theatre, which became known as the Domaine Musical" – was it the series or the theatre that became so known? (I know the answer, but it should be made clear here.)
    • "The concerts focussed" – "focused", for preference.
    • "the programmes inordinately long" – I can well believe it, but the adverb is a matter of opinion unless cited.
    • " Boulez had to turn to wealthy private patrons for support, in particular Suzanne Tézenas" – as she has no article, you should, I think, either explain who she was or (preferably) delete her name. "Wealthy private patrons" is all we need to know in this context. (Incidentally, "wealthy" for "rich" is one of Fowler's "genteelisms", like "assist" for "help" or "perspire" for "sweat": not incorrect but a bit refained and better avoided in my view.)
    • "Baden-Baden" – link?
    • "Le Marteau sans maître" – see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles#Translations and consider adding an English translation ("I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clou"?)
    • "première" – although I personally prefer to use the grave accent, I think there is a majority view that the word is now at home enough in English to do without a diacritical mark.
    • "according to Peyser" – Peyser pops up here without introduction or being put in context. You call her "the biographer Joan Peyser" later on, but it would be better to do so here instead. In passing, are you confident that she is a reliable source? Her biography of Bernstein, I recall, was much criticised for sensationalism.
      • Clarified (and adjusted later ref accordingly) and added link. Peyser is an important source, particularly about Boulez's childhood as she interviewed his family, teachers etc. She's frequently cited in more recent biographical writings, though sometimes with caution. Unlike Bernstein, there was nothing sensational to reveal about Boulez - or else she missed it - so she concentrated on trying to psychoanalyse him (badly). I happened to pick up a second-hand copy with a long inscription by PB to Sidonie Goossens, from which it's clear that he disliked both Peyser and the book (but was very fond of Goossens). Dmass (talk) 13:04, 4 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • 1959–1971: International conducting career
    • Second paragraph: I wonder why you don't link the orchestras?
    • "Stravinsky's Le Sacre du Printemps" – the current score is Le Sacre 4: The Rite 2. A full-time score of six-nil for one side or the other would be a good result.
    • "riotous premiere" – if you insist on "première" above, you should be consistent here.
    • "Jean-Louis Barrault" – no need to link to him again here, surely? Do we even need his full name repeating here, rather than just surname? And, really, do we need to know who designed the costumes and scenery?
    • "the critical response was unanimously favourable" – do your two sources say "unanimously"? I can't recall any performance of anything which all published notices praised.
    • "Wagner's Parsifal" – first mention of Wagner in the main text: perhaps a link?
    • "—after Hans Knappertsbusch died—" it won't be obvious to many readers why this was a prerequisite for Wieland's invitation to Boulez. I think you should either explain that Kna had a monopoly of Parsifals at Bayreuth or (preferably) delete mention of him here.
    • "Pelléas et Mélisande" – you've linked to the article on the play rather than the one on the opera.
    • "appointed the conservative Marcel Landowski Director of Music" – director of music of what or where?
    • "Principal Guest Conductor" – more caps we could do without
    • The Manual of Style would have us link Boston, Chicago and Los Angeles, but if you think that rather excessive I shall not demur.
    • "Éclat, a short and brilliant piece" – says who?
  • 1971–1977: London and New York
    • The first sentence is a touch editorial, though I think you just about get away with it. But you need links to the place, the pianist and the composer.
    • "Controller of Music … Chief Conductor" – more caps we don't need.
    • "Director of the Bayreuth Festival" – no need to capitalise "director"
    • "Richard Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen" – I think I see why you've given the composer's given name as well as surname here, but you haven't done so in the previous section apropos of Wieland and Parsifal.
    • "Cummings ist der Dichter" – I think (though I'm not certain) we should follow the capitalisation used by Boulez ("cummings ist...."), rather than following the MoS, or indeed, common sense.
      • There was a bit of an edit skirmish about this a while back (not involving me) and the eventual outcome was that capitalised is right. I've checked again and that's the way it appears on the front cover of the Universal Edition score - and in Claude Samuel's list of works, in a book PB was involved in. Common sense must have prevailed. Dmass (talk) 20:24, 9 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • "Barrault's stage adaptation of Nietzsche's Ainsi parla Zarathoustra" is in a linguistic no-man's-land. I daresay Barrault's show was called Ainsi parla Zarathoustra, but I'm not sure it should be called "an adaptation of Nietzsche's Ainsi parla Zarathoustra" in an English article. It would be fine to do so in a French article, of course, but in an English one, I reckon it was either an adaptation of Nietzsche's Also sprach Zarathustra or an adaptation of Nietzsche's Thus Spoke (or Spake) Zarathustra.
  • 1977–1992: IRCAM
  • 1992–2006: Return to conducting
    • "the Ensemble Intercontemporain and the CSO" – the CSO is no doubt the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and as this is the only time you have used the abbreviation, I'd be inclined to spell out the orchestra's name in full here rather than bothering to explain the abbreviation, which you should otherwise do.
    • "in the Swiss town of Basel" – I think the burghers of Basel might be a bit miffed to see their city described as a mere town.
    • "A police spokesman apologized" – another unexpected z.
    • "This period also marked a return to the opera house. He worked with Peter Stein …" – There has grown a belief, not based on the MoS as far as I can see, that the first mention of a person in any paragraph should be the name, and not a pronoun. I think this is silly – the ODNB, Grove etc don't have such a dogmatic rule – and I have no objection to your "he" and "his" near the start of paragraphs, but I think the "he" here would read more smoothly as "Boulez".
    • Links: Pelléas et Mélisande doesn't need one (linked earlier) but Welsh National Opera does, as do the other venues in the sentence.
    • "At the Théâtre du Châtelet in Paris" – I don't think we need be told twice in two sentences that the Châtelet is in Paris.
    • "Ditto that Pierrot lunaire is by Schoenberg.
    • "Anja Silja " – why not link?
    • "focussed in particular" – again, we could do without the otiose double s.
  • Last years
  • Juvenilia and student works
    • There is a certain amount of inconsistency in capitalising types of composition here: "a sonata for violin and piano" but "parts of the Quartet".
  • Douze notations and the work in progress
  • First published works
    • "Sonatine pour flûte et piano" – the MoS bids us eschew italics for generic titles such as Symphony No 1 etc, and I reckon Sonatine pour flûte et piano is one such. I also wonder why it is necessary to have it in French.
      • Stripped of italics and anglicised. Dmass (talk) 20:14, 10 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
        • Quoi? Are you going to amend Verdi's La Traviata to the Fallen Woman or Cosi fan tutte to Thus Do They All?! There is no such work as the Sonatina in Boulez's output (as opposed to Clementi's, where they are legion) - there is however a Sonatine. I do not know of a single academic work that refers to the piece in question as a Sonatina, and it is not hard for readers to grasp it in the original French (as was remarked about Quatour). Knucmo2 (talk) 11:53, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • "Le Soleil des eaux" – a translation in brackets might be a kindness. I suppose Complainte du lézard amoureux is adequately explained later in the sentence.
    • "La Sourg" – if that means this, a link might help.
  • Total serialism
  • Le Marteau sans maître
  • Middle-period works
  • Works with electronics
  • Unfinished works
  • Character and personal life
    • "dodecaphonic music is USELESS" – Boulez may have used all caps, but we don't. This should be in lower case, and italicised for emphasis.
      • My preference is for it to stay. It's a well-known quotation from an article in which Boulez used all caps, which are often reproduced when quoted in other published texts - and I think it captures his peculiar belligerence. Dmass (talk) 09:15, 10 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • "Patrice Chéreau … the era of Regietheater." – you really must cite such an assertion. It is unfair to blame Chéreau for Regietheater without very clear evidence for the accusation. I suppose Walter Legge's comment is ad rem: "If producers and scenic designers are allowed to continue their writing of graffiti and vulgarity and stupidity on masterpieces as you experienced in Fidelio and Così—not to mention Chéreau at Bayreuth—we shall be forced to insist that they write the libretto and music to match the rubbish they put on the stage!"
      • It turns out the substance of the assertion is in the Kozzinn obituary, which I cited at the end of the para. I've added a direct quotation from him, which is nicely plain-speaking (without foaming at the mouth as Legge does). Dmass (talk) 17:30, 6 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • "He later turned to the German playwright Heiner Müller" – the he is presumably Boulez, but the text reads as though it is Genet.
  • Recording
    • The singers in the first two paras need links, as do those mentioned later in the section.
    • "The LSO also contributed" – the abbreviation has not appeared earlier, and I think you should at some convenient point, perhaps the first mention in the whole text, write "the London Symphony Orchestra (LSO)".
    • "Ravel" – this is the first mention of him in the main text (which prompts the passing thought that this seems odd if Ravel was indeed core repertoire for Boulez, as the lead asserts) and could well be linked.
      • Linked. I think it's pretty uncontroversial that Ravel was core repertoire: he recorded the orchestral music twice (left-hand concerto three times), did the operas with the BBC and in Cleveland and Daphnis and Tombeau were virtually party pieces. Dmass (talk) 07:03, 8 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
        • True (I recall an LSO concert at which he gave us a complete Daphnis of amazing clarity of texture) but any statement in the lead should be backed up in more detail in the main text, and though Debussy, Stravinsky and Bartók and the Second Viennese School are very well covered, there is nothing about Ravel in the main text until we get to this single mention in the Recordings section. Tim riley talk 15:20, 8 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
          • I see what you mean and will attend to it. He conducted Daphnis at the first concert of his I went to (BBCSO in 1976 with the Quichotte songs, the Debussy Villon ballades and his own Rituel). If only I still had my old cassette of the broadcast... Dmass (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
          • New paragraph added in the New York and London section Dmass (talk) 11:23, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • The fifth paragraph runs out of citations towards the end.
      • The Mahler cycle is now referenced. I'm struggling to find a source which explicitly states that Klagende Lied was his last recording. There were no recordings after it, but it's difficult to prove a negative... Dmass (talk) 15:46, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • More focussing in the last para.
  • Performing
  • Writing and teaching
  • Legacy
    • I was very surprised to find no information about current and recent performances of Boulez's works around the world. Memorial halls are splendid but the most important part of a composer's legacy is his (or her) place in the international repertory. It should be possible to find out how many performances of pieces x, y and z there have been in recent years in Paris, London, New York or elsewhere. Comprehensiveness is not a requirement for GA, and so this isn't a problem at this review, but if, as I hope, you have FAC in mind, it will have to be looked at carefully before then.
  • Sources and references
    • I don't think I have ever seen another article where the list of sources came before the citations. No reason to object to having them this way round, but it struck me as strange.
    • The inclusion of multiple editions in the list of sources is rather confusing. I advise you just to list the actual book you got the information from, and omit mention of other editions, paperbacks etc.
      • That's a tricky one because not all the sources were added by me. What I propose is: if I added it, I will just refer to that (which will likely be the UK edition). If I didn't, I will just refer to the US edition, so that there is a mix (and also because I know at least one of the other major contributors, who is very good with sources etc. and may well have added them, is US-based). I will leave this suggestion for a day or so, in case you think that's the wrong approach. Dmass (talk) 16:09, 12 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
        • So that you'd drop one or other of hardback/softback Conversations with Célestin Deliège and Orientations and either the English or American versions of Boulez on Music Today etc? Good plan, I'd say. This will satisfy the policy WP:SAYWHERE but unclutter the list. Incidentally the ISBNs could do with a polish: for some occult reason ISBNs exist in 13- and 10-digit versions, and if both are available for any book - and they usually are - we are asked to use the 13-digit version. And to use the hyphenated form when available (which, again, is usually so). But be of good comfort, I am now quite used to feeding the numbers through the ISBN sausage machine, and will undertake that minor chore once you have eliminated the duplicate editions, on the basis you suggest above. Tim riley talk 12:55, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • You have a hyphen where an en-dash is wanted in the page range of the Glock symposium (both mentions, and I did just wonder how both the Bennett and the Bradshaw chapters of the book have the same page numbers.) Ditto for ref 63 (Steinegger).
    • There is also a hyphen rather than an en-dash in the date range of the Boulez and Schaeffner book.
    • Likewise for Stephen Walsh's book.
    • Mostly you say online sources were "retrieved", but I spotted three "accessed"s. Best be consistent.
    • I was puzzled by your method of referring to Grove online. The Boulez article is listed under sources, with just "Hopkins and Griffiths" in the references. This would be fine if it were consistent with the way you've dealt with the Beethoven article in note 41, where the bibliographic info is in the note, with no separate listing in the sources. And if you must include the editor's name (though I have rarely seen it done, and it doesn't feature in Grove's own recommended citation styles) you need to decide if he's Deane L. Root (Beethoven) or just Deane Root (Boulez). If the former, he should be "Root, Deane L." and not "L. Root, Deane" as at present.
    • You are inconsistent about indicating which sources are in French. I recommend you mention the language for all French-language sources.
    • I'm not sure of your rationale for giving the titles of newspapers in the citations. In particular the inclusion or omission of definite articles seems haphazard:
    • Publishers - inconsistently labelled:

That concludes my comments. Quite a lot of them, but there is nothing very grave there, other than the lack of information about modern performances in the legacy section, and once you've had a chance to deal with them we can press on. I have not forgotten that you're away till the weekend, and there is no great hurry for you to respond to the above. We can deal next week once you're back in the swing. I shan't bother putting the review on formal hold, unless you wish it. Over to you. Tim riley talk 15:53, 3 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thank you so much, Tim, for such a thorough and painstaking review. It all looks extremely helpful. As you say, I'm away this week - but I'll continue to chip away at some of the simpler corrections. More substantive changes will be picked up when I'm back at my desktop with access to books. Thanks again for all your help.Dmass (talk) 18:59, 3 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
Dare I say it, I think I've finished (this stage). Let me know if I've missed anything. Thank you again for keeping an eye out along the way - and for jollying me along! Your time and attention to detail are both hugely appreciated. Dmass (talk) 16:55, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Overall summary

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GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:  
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:  
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:  
    Well referenced.
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:  
    Well referenced.
    C. No original research:  
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:  
    B. Focused:  
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:  
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:  
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:  
    Well illustrated.
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:  
    Well illustrated.
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:  

Looking to the future, I feel I should point out as earnestly as I can that although there is no digression, no wildly irrelevant material, the article is very, very long. This doesn't affect its eligibility for GA, but I can name (though I shan't) at least two editors who will object vigorously to the length if you go to FAC, and I'm afraid I'd be inclined to join them. I was incorrect in saying, above, that this is more than twice the median word-count of the existing FAs on composers – it isn't quite. The median is 7,080 and this article weighs in at 13,506. That is 1,035 words longer than the longest composer FA (Tchaikovsky), which, other than Britten (10,700), is the only one to top 10,000. If Mahler can manage with 8,975 words, Wagner with 8,359, Shostakovich with 6,789 and Messiaen with 4,778, it should be possible to cover Boulez thoroughly in a good many fewer words than 13,506. An article as good as this should be taken all the way to FA, which I think it absolutely must be – once it has had a good trim. But enough of carping. This is a top notch article, and it has been a privilege to play a part in its development. Bravi to the nominator and the other main editors. Tim riley talk 17:04, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

Sounds a bit harsh Tim. But I think I know what you mean. So I'll give you Three Bollywood Cheers. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
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