Talk:Pharyngeal consonant

Pharyngeal plosives

Can someone please tell me why pharyngeal plosives are now thought to be impossible? --JorisvS 17:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
This question remains unanswered ... --JorisvS 18:31, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'm a bit confused here too... from the description, the sound comes from moving the back of the tongue backwards to against the back of the throat, blocking the airflow temporarily and then releasing it. This is the same movement as coughing? --Firien ^{need help?} 15:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

According to the article on the cough reflex, it's glottal, and apparently plosive, seeing as how the actual sound is caused by the release of pressure after the articulators part (glottis opens). LokiClock (talk) 06:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

It is possible to pronounce a Voiceless pharyngeal stop.--Adamsa123 (talk) 22:32, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure it isn't a strongly pharyngealized voiceless epiglottal plosive? --JorisvS (talk) 09:08, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

What are the epiglottal consonants exactly? from this audio example (Listen) which is supposed to be the example for epiglottal stop, it's sounds like a hard voiceless uvular stop [q]. The same thing with the epiglottal fricatives, they sound like a deep [χ] and [ʁ]. also this chart state that voiceless pharyngeal stop is possible to pronounce.--Adamsa123 (talk) 10:24, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

They can be considered further back than pharyngeals (which are further back than uvulars). They are articulated with the aryepiglottic folds against the epiglottis. --JorisvS (talk) 10:36, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

But you are aware they sound similar to the uvular consonants right?. anyway i am certain it's not a pharyngealized voiceless epiglottal stop. what is impossible is a voiced pharyngeal stop--Adamsa123 (talk) 10:47, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's not what the article says. So, do you have an RS that says what you say? --JorisvS (talk) 19:25, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Which one? that the epiglottal consonants and uvular consonants sound similar or that a voiceless pharyngeal stop is possible to pronounce.--Adamsa123 (talk) 20:14, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, the possibility of (voiceless) pharyngeal stops. --JorisvS (talk) 21:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

But according to this chart it is possible right?. The white areas are possible consonants and the grey areas are judged to be impossible. by the way is pharyngeal stop is written in IPA as (Q)?--Adamsa123 (talk) 22:09, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting! [1] confirms the template, [2] doesn't. Maybe the former is newer and there has been a new insight, in which case I would be very interested in what it is. I can make just about any sound (e.g. voiced epiglottal implosives, apical velars, ejective nasopharyngeal fricatives, and more), usually pretty fluently, but I haven't managed to make a voiceless pharyngeal plosive and when I try to make it, I'm pronouncing a (doubly articulated) voiceless epiglottal plosive plus pharyngeal fricative [ʡ͡ħ]. --JorisvS (talk) 22:24, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, how about this. A Pharyngealized example (Listen)--Adamsa123 (talk) 22:29, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

The former sounds like a nasalized voiceless aspirated velar affricate [k͡x̃ʰ] to me. The latter, I think, sounds like a (slightly rounded) voiceless epiglottal affricate [ʡ͡ʜ]. There is definitely frication in both. Note also that a "pharyngealized pharyngeal ..." is not possible, just like e.g. a "palatalized palatal ..." is not possible. --JorisvS (talk) 12:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well in my both examples there is no frication at the velum or uvula. It is somewhere between the Uvular consonants and Glottal consonants. When i try to make this into a frication, i pronounce a Voiceless pharyngeal fricative. the "Pharyngealized" example that i mentioned before is what i pronounced when i tried to make this into a plosive. my first examples was voiceless pharyngeal affricate. Example without the long vowels File:Pharyngeal stop2.ogg A Pharyngeal affricate File:Pharyngeal affricate.ogg i tried to make it plosive File:Pharyngeal stop.ogg It may sound like a voiceless uvular stop, but it isn't.--Adamsa123 (talk) 16:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

There are three distinct radical places of articulation, which were all called "pharyngeal" in older literature and sometimes still are. Can you distinguish between all these?

• Pharyngeal: root of the tongue against the pharynx;
• Epiglotto-pharyngeal: epiglottis against the pharynx;
• Epiglottal: aryepiglottal folds against the epiglottis.

Making a plosive beginning with the pharyngeal fricative is how I originally came to make the epiglottal plosive plus pharyngeal fricative I mentioned earlier. I now may have managed to make a truly pharyngeal plosive by making a uvular plosive and retracting the point of articulation. Your new sound files are definitely better, the place of articulation definitely being radical (I'm sufficiently familiar with uvulars not to mistake radicals for uvulars). The first of the three is, I think, an epiglottal, the other two may well be pharyngeal, though I can't yet rule out epiglotto-pharyngeals. --JorisvS (talk) 10:36, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The Epiglottal consonants really confuse me. First of all i am very familiar with the pharyngeal consonants. As a kid i could pronounce both Voiceless and Voiced pharyngeal fricative softly. Now for the Epiglottal consonants from this two examples which one is the Voiceless epiglottal fricative? : Example 1 (deeper ħ) Or Example 2 (strongly pharyngealized χ).--Adamsa123 (talk) 12:50, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The former sounds like a voiceless pharyngeal fricative to me and the latter like a voiceless epiglottal fricative (albeit computer-generated). I suspect the "soft pharyngeal" could be the epiglotto-pharyngeal, but I could well be wrong. At any rate, I can make a 'soft' (i.e. not raspy) heavily fricated sound by doing something in my throat and have also managed to make a softer but distinctly different sound by greatly lessening the frication of the voiceless pharyngeal fricative. --JorisvS (talk) 11:28, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The "soft pharyngeal" is how the Arabic, Mizrahi Jews, Chechen people ,Kurds and Circassians pronounce it. Anyway it's clear to me now which one are the epiglottal consonants. So in the end voiceless pharyngeal plosive is possible to pronounce--Adamsa123 (talk) 18:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that has become clear to me :). --JorisvS (talk) 21:35, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Could this be a voiced pharyngeal stop?. I think that one possible too.--Adamsa123 (talk) 19:57, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

After I learned that a voiceless pharyngeal plosive was possible and manage to pronounce it, it was also easy for me to pronounce a voiced version. Your sound file could well be of one, but I'm not yet sure. --JorisvS (talk) 09:51, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Sounds

How helpful it would be if pages on such topics presented the actual sounds in sound files.

Ah, but the pages for the individual sounds do, as per usual. LokiClock (talk) 06:01, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Wrong Symbol?

חית | [ħeːθ] | the letter ḥêṯ

isn't the symbol used there a taw instead of a ḥêṯ?

Arabic is written right to left. The taw is for the [θ]. LokiClock (talk) 05:54, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Eh, that's Hebrew, not Arabic. Just sayin'. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:56, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The symbol in red is heth: see the character under "Hebrew" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heth. Notice the loop on taw: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taw — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.254.27.123 (talk) 18:30, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Separation of the article

Shouldn't it be two different articles? One defining epiglottal consonants and the other refering to pharyngeal? Sure, the epiglottis is placed in throat but it's still different consonant, IMO. 79.185.239.190 (talk) 22:56, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Esling (2010, cited in the article) seems to (partially) disagree. Peter238 (talk) 16:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Audio samples

I think the audio samples of the pharyngeal fricatives and epiglottal trills are currently a mess. Perhaps [1]^ⓘ and [2]^ⓘ are the pharyngeal fricatives and [3]^ⓘ and [4]^ⓘ are the epiglottal trills?--Adamʂa123 (talk) 21:11, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

None of them are trills. The first two indeed sound more pharyngeal and the other two do sound more epiglottal (or epiglotto-pharyngeal?). --JorisvS (talk) 08:48, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Or perhaps [5]^ⓘ is an epiglottal fricative or trill?--Adamʂa123 (talk) 12:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

That sounds like a fricative trill (a voicless epiglottal raised non-sonorant trill). There is clearly both a fricative and a trill component. --JorisvS (talk) 13:04, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I can hear a weak trilling on the fourth recording, and the fifth recording is indeed a fricative trill. Peter238 (talk) 16:49, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Isn't the variation in the sound just a slightly variable constriction? --JorisvS (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're asking. After a second listen, the fourth recording does seem to feature two slightly different sounding versions of that sound, the latter of which sounds a bit like a failed attempt at pronouncing a flap (rather than a trill), or something like that. Which phonetically is nothing more than a type of fricative. Peter238 (talk) 17:00, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Fricatives are the part of a continuum from almost no constriction to fully constricted where the constriction is enough to produce turbulence, but not sufficient to fully block the airstream. That means that at the same point of articulation one fricative can have a slightly smaller air passage than another fricative. And these sound slightly different. Could it be something like that? --JorisvS (talk) 17:08, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

That's probably it, yes. Peter238 (talk) 17:11, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Is it me or the audio samples for the epiglottal consonants sound extremely similar/the exact same?! MacySinrich (talk) 18:20, 22 January 2020 (UTC)