Talk:North American F-86 Sabre/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Unsourced Statements

"Several Sabres are still held by private owners (most notably actor Michael Dorn), including a handful that still fly at air shows and aviation events."

Removed from main article until more details and sources are found and cited.d LanceBarber 04:25, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

C'mon, this thing is well known. You remove it, while there are a lot of sites with the photos. Even in this webpage there are some:

250px

North American F86, Oshkosh, 2003, taken & submitted by Paul Maritz (paulmaz) An image speaks for thousand words.

If you get a look in internet:

http://www.pbase.com/airlinerphotos/2002stuart_edshipley

http://www.aero-pix.com/warbirds/f86page.htm

http://www.opshots.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=0&pos=-5686

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Oshkosh2002/Samplers/PostWw2/

Among the manies.

Before remove a thing, someone must remember that there is a web search engine that worths to be used. It should be better add references than remove them for 'lack of sources', expcecially when the things are so easy to find..--Stefanomencarelli 11:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Or perhaps the issues is just with actor:

For example, STAR TREK actor Michael Dorn reportedly owns a surplus South African Sabre Mark 6.

http://www.answers.com/topic/michael-dorn

Dorn enjoys flying, something he was not permitted to do while in The Next Generation but was apparently able to do after joining the cast of Deep Space Nine. He has flown with the Blue Angels as well as the Thunderbirds. Dorn owns several aircraft, including an old Air Force T-33 Shooting Star trainer jet, an F-86 Sabre, and a North American Sabreliner. The T-33 is often referred to as "his starship." Michael Dorn also serves on several organizations, one of which is the Air Force Heritage Foundation where he is on the advisory board. Dorn has also done interviews for the "Private Jets" episode of Modern Marvels on The History Channel. He is also a fan of Comedy Central's South Park.

http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58747 in which is asserted that he took part in the TV program 'Celebrity Wings'

Just few links found among many more, and i even not knew who was this actor.--Stefanomencarelli 11:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

---

See note in article, statement replaced already, with proper cite. Bzuk 12:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC).

♠♠♠ Specific Statement List ♠♠♠

I'd like to know exactly which statements are unsourced. Is there a way to mark them in the article so they are obvious to editors?--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 18:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I will place some {citation needed} tags where applicable. FWIW Bzuk (talk) 18:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC).

Performance Records

From my source on the Boeing website it says that George Welch did not fly the unofficial Mach 1 flight until several months after the maiden flight (1 Oct 47). That might be early 1948. I didn't change the current wording because I thought we might want to check this out.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 15:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not getting any response here, guess I should go forwarde with the change myself.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 18:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Baughers web page on the XP-86 indicates that this possible may exist too. Does Boeing have conclusive evidence to re-write history?? What other collaboration do we have?? Can Wikipedia re-write history?? My first guess is if the USAF rewrites history, then we should copyedit it. If USAF does not rewrite history, then we should only edit that there is a possible change in history. USAF website on the F-86A does not make any reference of this fact. Comments from others?? Founder, please site your source here so all can link to it. Thank you. Lance..... LanceBarber (talk) 04:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

My source is on the article page.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 22:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The Boeing site says: "Forerunner of the operational Sabre was the XF-86, first flown Oct. 1, 1947, by North American test pilot George Welch. A few months later Welch became the first pilot to fly the plane at Mach 1 (the speed of sound) in routine flight. Although technically rated as subsonic, the Sabre is no stranger to supersonic speeds." But, does not site the exact date, and not the the first test flight. A clarification edit is needed here. Thanks, Lance.... LanceBarber (talk) 02:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct and that was my point.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 02:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

George Welch flew the XP-86 prototype to supersonic speeds in a shallow dive on April 26, 1948. and FWIW Bzuk (talk) 04:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC).

Soooo, we're all in agreementt that the second paragraph needs to be reweritten.LanceBarber (talk) 04:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Well done Bill. LanceBarber (talk) 08:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, well done.  ;) I'm glad I pointed this out.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 14:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

There's a bit on Welch's diving the XP-86 at over Mach 1 here: [1] - interestingly, Roland Beamont was only the third pilot to dive the XP-86 at over Mach 1, in May 1948, a feat corroborated by Al Blackburn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.58.103 (talk) 21:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

The entry claiming the Oct 1 data was referenced to Wagner, which is completely wrong. I have put in a more nuanced entry and given the Blackburn reference. The story is a complicated one, but it is pretty clear that Welch did Mach 1 in October or November, 1947 and more likely October. By the way, claims due to Kempel and repeated in a poor Smithsonian book on the X-planes are shown to be wrong by Beamont's flight report in "Testing Years." Bernard Biales

References

Operators

I've noticed that the Operators section duplicates some info found in the CAC Sabre article, while the section on Canada details Canadair production, but has no Canadian units. The latter is quite odd, since the Operators section in Canadair Sabre links back here! (Non-Canadian Canadair Sabre users are covered here though.) Given the fact that the article on the US operators, List of Sabre and Fury units in US military, is still quite short, I'd like to propose we merge the operators section here to that article. If it proves to be too long at some point in the future as it expands, we can split it into US and non-AUS operators, as with the F-4 Operators. - BillCJ (talk) 10:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:George Welch.JPG

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Reconaissance Model Version

In an article published by the Editions Lariviere in the french language: "Le Fanatique de l'Aviation" (Nr 459 - feb 2008), the author relating the reconnaissance mission of the RF-86, as a reconnaissance variant of the F86 in its own right. First as a field modification and then as a variant produced, from both the A and F version. The respective nickname of the version RF86A and RF86F are "Ashtray" and "Haymaker", regarding to what the author calls them. Tourist.tam (talk) 10:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Survivors article may be needed

I suggest we start a new article F-86 Sabre survivors. I bet Dave has a preliminary one started in his sandbox. Cheers,LanceBarber (talk) 02:01, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Operators

Just reverted the good faith addition of Australia and UK as operators as they operated CAC and Canadair variants but other non North American-built operators are also on the list. Should this be a list of all Sabre operators whatever variant as it would be normal to just list them on the individual CAC and Canadair article. The article also has a lot of variant information about the other Sabres that is/should be in the individual articles? Any thoughts ? MilborneOne (talk) 09:21, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd split the Operators into three subssections. Top would be the US built Sabres, then the CAC and Canadair operators. This may mean some duplication of operators across the subsections but would be clearer to the reader. Mjroots (talk) 10:03, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I prefer limiting the Operators section to just those of NA-built aircraft. If we want a list of all types, then perhaps it's time for a List of F-86 Sabre operators article. This could in clude the existing List of Sabre and Fury units in US military page, or be separate as with the F-4 Phantom operators (F-4 Phantom II U.S. operators and F-4 Phantom II non-U.S. operators.) Including the F-86D operators would be probably be good also. - BillCJ (talk) 15:23, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Production Volume

The production numbers aren't fully clear. Boeing Photo Store (http://gallery.pictopia.com/boeing/gallery/2966/photo/boeing:729677/?o=17) states, "More than 6,000 Sabre Jets were built worldwide." Yet, the article refers to an "extended production run of over 7,800 aircraft between 1949 and 1956." Granted, 7800 is more than 6000, but why such a large gap? Also, does the "production of all variants at 9,860 units" include the variants mentioned in the next paragraph, or are those in addition to the 9,860? ("added another 1,815 airframes")? Regardless, these numbers are of a totally different magnitude then 6,000 and no citations are given. Eplater (talk) 03:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the confusion it the inclusion of licenced production, or not. Although your request for a reliable source is reasonable. MilborneOne (talk) 12:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Retirement

When was the F-86 retired from USAF service (not national guard)? Does anyone know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.152.74.234 (talk) 19:11, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Duplicate text in Indio-Pakistani Wars

The following text appears in the Air-to-Air combat subsection of the India - Pakistan war section, and needs to be cleaned up and sourced:

The top Pakistani ace of the conflict was Wing Commander Mohammed Mahmood Alam, who ended the conflict claiming 11 kills. Pakistan Air Force F-86 Flying Ace Sqn Ldr Muhammad Mahmood Alam, officially credited with five kills in air-to-air combat,[34] three of them in less than a minute.[35] . Even more remarkable, four of these kills were scored by Wing Commander Alam in a space of less than one minute.

--A More Perfect Onion (talk) 18:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

"Family Tree" Chart Contains Bad Info

Sorry, this chart contains incorrect information - the H was a major redesign with bigger J73 engine, enlarged fuselage, 20 mm cannon, etc. and "J" model appears to have been a little used designation for Avon powered Canadair Sabres (basically F-86E airframe so not related to H at all). Stopped checking after that so don't know what else is wrong. Jmdeur (talk) 01:10, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Since this is the main Sabre article, I've removed your duplicat post from F-86D Sabre. Pleaase don't post the same thing on every article it's used on, as that will be confusing. Thanks. For the record, I never liked the can't anyway, partly because it can't be edited easily. Also, you should probably check the rest of the article for accuracy now, so the person who edits it won't have to change it again if you should discover another mistake later. - BilCat (talk) 01:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Can't comment on accuracy in general, but uneven treatment of subject is fairly obvious. Consider the prominence of CAC Sabre coverage compared to that of F-86H, but you're welcome.Jmdeur (talk) 01:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I mis-wrote - I meant the accuarcy of the chart, not the article. The article itelf is easy to edit. Coverage of the F-86H in the article can be expanded, someone just has to take the time to do it. - BilCat (talk) 01:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Good to see that misinformation is still the word for the day on Wikipedia. But at least you told me off with respect to trying to point the error out wherever it appears. Oh well, can't blame a girl for trying. Jmdeur (talk) 07:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Guess I'll just start looking for that mysterious F-86J variant of the Hog Sabre since that bogus family tree is still present in this article - can't imagine with Wiki's fame for accurate information that this error remains. Jmdeur (talk) 23:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Given the fact you haven't presented any sources yourself, it's hard to know what is or is not accurate. Anyway, I'm removing the chart - I never liked it in the first place! It seems the user who added it isn't watching this page, so whatever. - BilCat (talk) 05:30, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Sources, no problem - just go to your public library and pick up any reputable one on the F-86 published in the last say 40 years or so, and you should be good to go. I don't know why I bother sometimes...whatever.Jmdeur (talk) 04:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm done here. - BilCat (talk) 08:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I think I've figured out the root of the F-86J/J73 error: the YF-84J used the J73. I believe the creator of the image simply made an error in his research. It's actually a common error, as the F-84 and F-86 have close numbers, and are similar in size and basic appearance. In his case, he may have been looking at a long list that included variants of both types, and his presumably tired eyes misread the data. - BilCat (talk) 16:52, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

The Gospel of Dorr, Lake, and Thompson

It is remarkable that a 96 page book (much of which is taken up by photos and drawings) with no references, nor even a bibliography, has somehow become the final word in the debate over Korean War air-to-air kill ratios. It is even more surprising given the fact that the authors of the book can't even come to an agreement among themselves over what the most likely kill ratio would be. On one page we are told that the "true" figure is 7:1 (with the author taking pains to mention that the Soviets do not dispute this figure), on another we are told that the MiG-15 to Sabre ratio is 3.5:1 and that if we throw in F-84 and F-80 losses (why?) the ratio may be 1:1. In an appendix we are then told the ratio was "really" probably about 2:1. The book also mentions a postwar USAF study called Sabre Measures Charlie that, from what I understand, the authors have either misunderstood or misconstrued.--172.191.196.115 (talk) 03:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Soviet lost 319 MiGs in A-to-A. Chinese lost 211 MiGs (maybe 10 of them to non-F86) in A-to-A. North Korea lost about 70 MiGs. So the ratio is there, just depending on how many F-86s are really lost in A-2-A.

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Armament

The design section says "Both the interceptor and fighter-bomber versions carried six 0.50 in (12.7 mm) M3 Browning machine guns" That is not true for the interceptor versions. Speaking of which, the F-86D, which has its own article, is properly listed among the models, but the F-86L is not. Since this is the article on the "F-86" it should be listed, even if discussed elsewhere.--Lineagegeek (talk) 00:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

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Avon Sabre

I never saw any performance data just for the Avon Sabre. 94.5.106.139 (talk) 11:21, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps you're looking for the CAC Sabre article? - BilCat (talk) 16:13, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

XP-80

The statement about the XP-80 makes no sense as the top speed was 502 mph. (Enzo Angelucci, The American Fighter). Note this is not referenced. Although the much later B model, not flown til well after the war, could do 577 mph but only with walc injection, and the references I am familiar with point to the XP-84 as the relevent competition. (Bernard Biales) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:197:300:F43F:28E4:7B1E:ADCC:E884 (talk) 05:36, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Sabre kills

The suggestion that the USSR+Chinese+North Korean losses are well over 600 in the light of claims that the overall kill ratio was about 2 MiGs to 1 Sabre (Sabre losses 78) does not make sense. Of course some, and perhaps many MiGs were lost to causes other than Sabre gunnery, but I wonder if the USSR total might cover the total losses of the Soviet supplied aircraft, not just those piloted by Soviet airmen. I would add that, in the light of WWII experience, claims of 10:1 might well correspond to a value closer to 3:1. How was the 1.8:1 arrived at? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bernard Biales 2601:197:300:F43F:28E4:7B1E:ADCC:E884 (talk) 08:14, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

I believe this ratio comes from probable, shared, and unconfirmed kills, but I'm only 13, so I would have to ask my dad or check my books.

American474 18:30, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Me 262

F-86 Sabre is single-engine copy of Me 262. is not? Halfcookie (talk) 12:57, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

It is not. - BilCat (talk) 13:00, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

A completely different aircraft. - ZLEA (talk) 19:28, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

F-86 Sabre in Popular Culture

The F-86 is referenced in the 1958 Christmas song "Run Rudolph Run" popularized by Chuck Berry.

128.177.26.3 (talk)indiaXray —Preceding undated comment added 14:41, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

This isn't a natural fit for Aircraft in fiction but the prospect of an entire 'Aircraft in popular culture' is daunting. There's already a link here from Run Rudolph Run but I don't know if it merits the reverse. 82.27.24.148 C37H67NO13 (talk) 12:51, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Development

One little known fact about the Sabre is the it is a development of the P-51 Mustang. P-51D-5-NA S/N 44-14017 was converted to the sole EFT-51D under US Navy Project Seahorse. The NA-133, a similar design based on the P-51H, although never built, paved the way for the FJ-1 Fury, which used the P-51D's wings an tail plus the NA-133's tip tanks, which paved the way for the P/F-86. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.188.21.71 (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

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France

France is missing ! (forgotten ?) --88.217.107.212 (talk) 18:46, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

I think they only operated the North American F-86D Sabre, where they are listed. MilborneOne (talk) 18:55, 1 July 2018 (UTC)