Talk:Norns

Norse beliefs

I am not sure that the Norse believed that everything is predestined. I would note that Urdh is the norn most often associated with fate and her name seems to derive from the root meaning "that which has turned." This would make the Norns manifestations of cause and effect rather than predestination per se. Note too that Urdh's Old English cognate, Wyrd, is closely associated with fate in many poems, none the least of which is "The Wanderer." Certainly at a certain point, events become unavoidable, but I don't thinl that the Norse believed the world was sufficiently mechanical for that to lead to predestination. --Einhverfr 02:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

From a religious stand point, the Norns didn't really control fate, in the sence that they determined every action a person or Asa takes. While the lengths of our lives are commonly held to be fated, the actions we take are not. EX: If I were to die in a car crash tomorrow there is nothing to be done about it, but the fact I am writing this comment is not an action that is fated to happen. It is believed that our lives are half fated. When we are born and when we die, but not what we do in between those two points. It is also argued whether or not how we die is fated and that while our string might run out, our own free will will dictate exatly how we die. Such as, if I were to die at 12 noon tomorrow, it might not be because of the car crash, since I might not be in a street or near a moving vehicle, but perhaps I might be shot or stumble and crack my skull open. The point being that my timer has run out and I have to die some how. This is all purely from a religious stand point and cannot be verified as factual, but I figured that this particular view would be necessary to better understand the Norns.--Scottish norseman 09:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Good picture

Too bad that this picture is copyrighted. It gives a freshness and an interesting new perspective on the norns.--Berig 20:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

That link is no longer active, but you can see the image via the WayBack Machine (at Ar hive.org). TrilliumLady (talk) 07:27, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Footnotes

There are 5 footnotes in 5 consecutive sentences-- all pointing to the same reference. WTF? That's insane. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.164.61.166 (talk) 23:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Macbeth

There is no mention of the three witches from Macbeth even though the plays' character list links here links here, I do believe that this should be fixed post haste. --66.103.50.157 (talk) 14:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I think a separate article should be made. I've come across enough information in my Shakespeare research about his three witches to create a pretty good sized article. Wrad (talk) 17:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

• • Then someone should make it, ne? --66.103.50.157 (talk) 16:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
    • I've already started one on my user page. User:Wrad/Sandbox. 17:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Norns just the Moirae rehashed?

"One of the great difficulties involved in separating out the elements of early medieval civilization in the British Isles is that it mixed Christianity with not only north European but Greco-Roman cultures. The latter could be as potent and novel a force in some places as the Scriptures and the writings of the Church Fathers, and all our literary records of the Irish, Welsh and Anglo-Saxons are filtered through both. Thus, it now seems to be generally accepted among scholars that the figures of the Three Norns or Wyrd Sisters in Norse and Germanic mythology are borrowed from those of the Three Fates in Greek mythology, and had no native equivalents. It is very likely that when writing of the Tuatha de Danaan, the Irish were not recording something in which their ancestors believed but fitting old deities into a structure inspired by the Greek pantheon. The Norse myths, culminating in the superb prose of Snorri Sturluson, were certainly subjected to the same process." (Ronald Hutton The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles p. 296. (my emphasis)

I find this passage a little surprising to say the least. The Norns were merely medieval inventions based on the Greek Moirae? What makes it even more suspicious is that he provides no references or endnotes to support these assertions. Is he just making it up off the top of his head? I'd love it if someone could give me some idea of what the scholarly consensus on the Norns is. If Hutton's opinion is 'generally accepted among scholars' as he says, could someone point me to a good book that summarises this scholarship? Thank-you kindly, Fuzzypeg★ 22:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing you can expect from Hutton, and a prime example as to why he should be taken with a few grains of salt. I would go so far as to state he's not as familiar with Germanic paganism as he should be. As you noted, his lack of foot notes here is really revealing, and this is most definitely not a popular theory as the subject is hardly so simple. Most English language scholars connect the Norns, Dísir, and Valkyries to earlier attested female figures in early Germanic paganism like the Matres and Matrones.

As an example, Simek writes in his dictionary that it has been proposed that a possible classical influence in the number of them (though the number three appears very frequently in Germanic paganism), but cites the figures appearing in at least 10th century skaldic poetry, which would make them obviously indigenously recognized as Norse paganism existed then, and that they likely at least stemmed from matron cults. Lindow does not mention this theory of a possible classical origin at all, but writes a lot about the extensive mentioning of the Norns by the skalds, and the linguistic relationships to Anglo-Saxon Wyrd, and mentions Runic inscription N 351, which shows that the belief was hardly confined to a few Icelanders attempting to ape classical sources.

I recommend Hilda Davidson's Roles of the Northern Goddess for better informed theories regarding the development of female goddesses and spirits among the Germanic and Celtic peoples. All in all though, the way to handle it is just to state that it is a theory of Hutton's and end it at that in a "theories" section alongside a lot of others. That's the beauty of a "theories" section - stuff like this gets isolated and properly attributed after all the facts are stated, and people can sniff it out themselves. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ha! And I wasn't even intending to add this to the article at all! I was really just trying to make sure it didn't need adding. Maybe we should though... I'm inclined to drag my heels on this one, when there are so many other things to fix in this encyclopedia, that involve fact and reason rather than flights of fancy. Anyway, thanks for this, Bloodofox; as always it's a real pleasure benefiting from your extensive knowledge. Fuzzypeg★ 23:32, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe that Hutton is referring to the "three main Norns" as based on the three Fates. AFAIK, the many norns were another name for the dísir/valkyries and an old Norse/Germanic concept, whereas the idea that there were three main Norns is often said to be a Greco-Roman addition.--Berig (talk) 16:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

No problem, and thanks for the kind words - I am glad to help. :} Berig is right that, as I stated, theories exist about some of the Norns potentially being amalgamated from earlier Germanic sources into a triple fate goddess Greco-Roman structure, but the situation is not nearly as simple as Hutton attempts to give the impression of, and it is most definitely not an invention of Snorri, which Hutton seems to be somewhat implying here. For example, the direct references (and potential references) in Völuspá to the three have created a lot of theories, as well as their potential roles and evolution in late myth. Davidson shows that weaving female goddess figures have an extensive history in Germanic paganism (combine that with triple goddess figures such as the Matrones, and well..), and it'd probably be informative to see a comparative Indo-European survey of triple female fate figures. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Estonia connection

Would some of you wise be able to search the work of folklore gatherer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Reinhold_Kreutzwald. Friedrich Robert Faehlmann published a number of Estonian legends and myths in German based on genuine Estonian folklore and on Ganander's Finnish mythology, "The Dawn and Dusk" (Koit ja Hämarik) being considered one of the most beautiful Estonian myths having popular origin. One of the stories is called Gold-spinners, and is of three maidens spinning gold yarn: found here http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19438/19438-h/volume1.html#Page_208

New paragraph

I add this new paragraph "See also" because a famous comic Oh My Goddess! is based on this mythology‎.--Pierce (talk) 18:01, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Ooof!

Why is Snorri the first author cited? His stuff about the Norns tends to be an outlying data point - he dos not use disir at all, but instead uses norns in places that prior authors use disir.

I can see I am going to have to dig into the books again.

-- RavanAsteris (talk) 03:27, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Move

The page should be moved back to Norns. Norns are plural the ideas mentioned byt the moving editor "about those who are one" are unsourced and standard terminology is to use the plural in both english (norns) and old norse (nornir). ·Maunus·ƛ· 14:20, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Macbeth continued

#Macbeth above is four years old.

Having visited Wyrd, Wyrd Sisters (1988 novel), Wyrd Sisters (band), Weird Sisters (Shakespeare), it seems me that "See also" might usefully direct to both Wyrd and Weird sisters whereas the parenthetical comment (Anglo-Saxon Fates or prophetesses) alludes to Wyrd Sisters. --P64 (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Nornir

Why does it say the plural is nornir, but then the page refers to them has norns several times 69.91.177.9 (talk) 18:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)Pants Jackson

Popular Culture

I'm not sure why the Popular Culture section had, as one of its subsections, "The Games", instead of the much more standard "Video Games" (unless it was some troll doing a "HURR YOU LOST THE GAME" thing). Anyway, I've changed that. I've also added the original Guild Wars to the list of games, as simply listing gw2 would imply that the Norn were not present in gw1. 64.134.101.238 (talk) 23:35, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

While not exactly referring to the prophetic women of the norse saga, "norns" is the name for the dark side immortals in Tad William's fantasy saga that culminates in "To Green Angel Tower". Jorganos (talk) 21:20, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Part of the intro doesn't make sense

The intro says:

[...] Norns within skaldic references are often seen as negative beings that are mostly associated with transitional situations such as violent death and battle. In Egil's Saga [long description of events which don't involve Norns] so Bek-Pedersen suggests that since Óðinn has caused the death then the norn has caused the emotional turmoil.[5] [...]

I'd like to rewrite it, but I have no idea what it's trying to say. If Norns are "mostly associated with transitional situations", there should be better examples than one author reading between the lines(?) in Egil's Saga. Damaged by editing, perhaps? JöG (talk) 06:53, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Move from "Norns" to "Norn"

Right now we have valkyrie and dís in the singular. When attempting to move the page to "norn", I see that back in 2010 another user reverted such a move that had been standing since 2007 with the following reasoning: "the three are indivisible, Norns is a misnomer and in English it is most appropriately rendered Norn which includes the triune". This isn't correct. There are far more norns than just the three, as the article—as bad as it currently is—makes clear. I see no reason for this article to be in the plural rather than the singular. Would someone please move this article back to the singular? :bloodofox: (talk) 23:35, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Grade inflation

This article is not B-class, unless the meaning of this grade has degraded to the point of being meaningless. Key aspects of this article are based on too few, and far too dated sources. Other aspects are completely unsourced. In any schloarly-minded system, or academic context, this article would not be given a passing grade. 98.228.192.239 (talk) 02:32, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

The fact that the vast majority of interpretative statements in the Poetic Edda section are unsourced—with the density of citations in this section simply being repeated citation of primary and translated original documents—is particularly galling, and a testimony to its affront to Wikipedia's standard/policy, not to give credence to material that isn't sourced. 98.228.192.239 (talk) 02:39, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Source for this?

"These three Norns are described as powerful maiden giantesses (Jotuns) whose arrival from Jötunheimr ended the golden age of the gods." I have never seen this particular discription before, is there a source for this? I don't speak swedish so I can't be certain but the next source seems to not refer to this particular notion. 87.211.80.39 (talk) 14:34, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

no search in page in Wikipedia app

no search in page in Wikipedia app. so I have to use the browser 2601:200:C000:B8C5:9C71:9983:854B:959B (talk) 01:07, 4 June 2022 (UTC)