Talk:Mozart Group

Contested deletion

This page is not unambiguously promotional, because... (your reason here) --2001:1C00:2714:F800:B1A9:7A16:8BF4:5EC2 (talk) 17:27, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I am Loranchet and the author of this article. I have no relation whatsoever with the Mozart Group, nor do I know any member of that group. I also had no intention to write an article that "serves only to promote or publicise" this Group! The thing is, I read the article in the New York Times about this group (see the ref in the article), and I thought it merited an article, because they are doing important work in Ukraine. On the web you can find many more newspaper articles about the Mozart Group, but as they all tell more or less the same -and positive- story I didn't mention them all as sources. The fact alone that reports about this group are positive should be no reason to delete the article! I have found no negative or controversial aspects of this group but I'm surely prepared to add them if anyone finds me a source. So: what do I need to do to retain the article: make it shorter? Find something negative? Adapt some language that is considered overly promotional (and if so, which phrases of my article are considered too promotional)? Thanks you all for making a well considered decision before deleting this article. 2001:1C00:2714:F800:B1A9:7A16:8BF4:5EC2 (talk) 17:27, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

The Mozart group is dead

It seems that the alcohol fuelled truth session in which Milburn accused Ukraine of killing POW's may be relevant to this page after all. We probably should add more detail to the lawsuit that is mentioned in the last paragraph. The former Marine and Kyiv-based businessman is the company’s chief financial officer, Andrew Bain, who owns 51% of the company. Milburn owns the other 49%. Bain's lawsuit against Milburn mentions the claims made by Milburn while intoxicated. It also claims that Milburn let his dog urinate in a borrowed apartment, diverted company funds and committed other financial malfeasance.

The Mozart Group, one of the most prominent, private American military organizations in Ukraine, has collapsed under a cloud of accusations ranging from financial improprieties to alcohol-addled misjudgments.[1]

Burrobert (talk) 13:38, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the video of Milburn while intoxicated, Milburn initially accused Max Blumenthal of releasing "a deep-fake interview in which I appeared to be confiding in him drunkenly about my feelings about the war in Ukraine". The NYT story now quotes Milburn as saying "Of course I shouldn’t have said that".Burrobert (talk) 13:43, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

@Burrobert: I have read the Times piece and intend to incorporate it into the article shortly.

Regarding Milburn's Team House remarks: this is an accusation levelled against him in the lawsuit ("[...] making derogatory comments about Ukraine’s leadership while "significantly intoxicated" [...]"). The whole shtick of the podcast is getting MIL/INT guys to sip scotch and swap war stories, so that he was drinking when he made the remarks was never really in question. The Times piece doesn't really offer much context/detail here - it reads to me as if Milburn merely regrets making the (rather factual - Ukraine ranks as the second most corrupt country in Europe after Russia, as well as one of the poorest) comments from a PR perspective, having naively thought these won't get twisted for cynical propaganda purposes - this is still different than admitting to getting intoxicated and accidentally causing damage to the company's reputation. However, it must be emphasized that Blumenthal moreover alleged that Milburn drunkenly admitted that units he trained engaged in war crimes (not true as far as I can tell) and made it appear as if Milburn had second thoughts about helping the Ukrainians after seeing what Ukraine is really like (not true). I don't think this aspect was mentioned in the NYT piece at all. I have also seen Milburn describing the edited clip as a "deep fake" and claiming Blumenthal made it appear he had interviewed Milburn himself which is plainly also false (no idea what Milburn was talking about there really) - but in any case, these are all just details of a dumb petty squabble that I really don't think warrant a mention here.

Kind regards, -J Jay Hodec (talk) 21:32, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

P.S.: There are also other (including more serious) allegations made in the plaint, as well as counter-accusations from Milburn against Bain. I don't think it makes sense to summarise the whole shebang here - especially not until there has been a ruling in the matter.

Jay Hodec (talk) 23:53, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

We should tell readers about the legal basis of the lawsuit if the details are available. What are the allegations? On the other hand, we have mentioned Milburns's claim that Bain was "a disgruntled former CFO" who has "substantial business interests in Russia", which, afaict, would not be part of the lawsuit. Is this relevant? What is the basis of Milburns's lawsuit? We have not provided any specifics about the nature of Bain's lawsuit against Milburn, some of which are in the NYT article? Burrobert (talk) 03:54, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the Blumenthal/Milburn back and forth is not relevant here as it has not been covered by sources we can use. However, I am interested in your comment that "Blumenthal moreover alleged that Milburn drunkenly admitted that units he trained engaged in war crimes (not true as far as I can tell) and made it appear as if Milburn had second thoughts about helping the Ukrainians after seeing what Ukraine is really like". Do you have a source for Blumenthal's comments? The video released by Max does show Milburn saying that Ukraine killed POW's "a lot". I think this would be considered a war crime. Is the sticking point that we don't know whether the Ukraine forces which did this were trained by Milburn?

I have seen where Milburn or his organisation accused Max of producing a deep-fake video in which Max pretended to be the interviewer. Both of those claims are obviously false. I have also seen where Milburn said that Blumenthal lived in Russia for several years and he and his Russian wife worked for RT and Sputnik. Max has apparently spent 2.5 days in Russia and his non-Russian wife, Anya Parampil, was a correspondent and anchor for RT America until 2018. Max himself has not worked for RT or Sputnik, although he has appeared on both as a commentator. Burrobert (talk) 03:54, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Milburn was interviewed a week ago by Afshin Rattansi on Going Underground.[2] It is an interesting choice for someone in Milburn's position. As you would expect Afshin conducts a fairly robust interview, but Milburn seems to keep it together and Afshin gives him the last word. Apparently Milburn knew Afshin's father, who taught at the university Milburn attended. Max Blumenthal is mentioned and so is the allegation that Bain holds "substantial business interests in Russia". Apparently, Bain responded to the claim by saying he has no interests in Russia and that defamation would be part of his lawsuit. Burrobert (talk) 05:54, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@Burrobert: There's like a dozen or more accusations in the lawsuit (the Intercept piece lists many additional ones, including multiple more serious ones). Milburn has also made multiple counter-allegations about Bain's alleged misconduct and these are not mentioned in the piece [P.S.: I meant wiki article] either - just the part of his response relevnant to the lawsuit itself. We either don't mention any specifics, or we mention all the allegations and recriminations with the entire back and forth which would take up like a quarter of the article.

Regarding Blumenthal's allegations, see:[3][4][5]

Look, there have been credible reports of Ukrainians having committed war crimes (e.g. including filming of war prisoners, and up to killing POWs). Milburn's concurrence on this point is entirely irrelevant as to the wiki article. Milburn also states in the Team House video that Ukrainians for the most part have not been guilty of committing atrocities, but that there have still been plenty of atrocities to go around. Anyway, I really don't see the point of debating this.

I don't care about internet disputes. This is irrelevant as to the wiki article.

If you've got a reliable source (can be primary), you're free to add that Bain denies the allegation of having business interests in Russia.

Regards, -J Jay Hodec (talk) 06:30, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Afaict from your references and the video of Milburn, Max's statements are quite accurate (Milburn "confesses that the Ukrainian forces he worked with carried out heinous atrocities"). Anyway, we are agreed that that is not relevant here at this stage.

Regarding the content of the page:

Why do we mention that Milburn said Bain was "a disgruntled former CFO" who has "substantial business interests in Russia"?

Why do we mention the break in orchestrated by Milburn but don't mention it is part of the lawsuit brought by Bain? The current version of this incident has no context and will leave readers confused about why it has been mentioned. Burrobert (talk) 09:23, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@Burrobert: You're right. I thought mentioning Milburn's response made sense when we only had the Intercept source to go on. With the additional context provided by the NYT piece this information was out of place. In fact, I should have rewritten this sentence while adding info from the NYT piece - it was an omission on my part. I have consequently already removed the passages you object to.

We can also mention that the break-in is part of the substance of the lawsuit.

-J 11:12, 4 February 2023 (UTC) Jay Hodec (talk) 11:12, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 March 2023

In the lead, please link: private military company → private military company 136.56.52.157 (talk) 07:32, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Y @136.56.52.157: Done.

Jay Hodec (talk) 17:52, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

 Already done M.Bitton (talk) 01:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended Protection

if wagner group doesn't have extended protection, mozart shouldn't have any either. KchTheWikiKid (talk) 20:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

non-encyclopedic tone and npov violation

>The name of the group was chosen as a witty reference[3][2] and counterpoint[5][3] to the Russian mercenary Wagner Group,[2][3] both groups thus being named for German-speaking composers.[6] A rescued dog named Richie serves as the group's mascot.[2]

Please change "The name of the group was chosen as a witty reference" to "The name of the group was chosen as a reference"

Godstar23 (talk) 18:02, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done Tollens (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 November 2023

In the "Disbandment" section, please change "Strip Clubs" to "strip clubs" to fix capitalization. Anonymous Libertarian (talk) 20:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done Tollens (talk) 23:09, 20 November 2023 (UTC)