Talk:Mindhunter (TV series)

Wendy Carr's sexual orientation

This is a series about the FBI set during a time when homosexuals were still considered deviates, suspected homosexuals were spied upon, the FBI had files about homosexuals, and Executive Order 10450 was still in effect. Episode 1.06 reveals that Wendy is in a relationship with Annaliese and the dialog between them was deliberately written to identify Wendy as a homosexual: Annaliese says to Wendy, "Do they know you're lesbian? ... You can't be yourself. Are you really going to hide half of your life?" This revelation received coverage in sources interested in lesbian portrayals on television, for example 1 (Bella Books is today's leading publisher of fiction and non-fiction lesbian-genre books.) And it's not just lesbian-interest sources that have covered it — it's in sources such as 2, 3, and 4. We don't know yet how Wendy's closeted life is going to be explored in season 2, but it can't be ignored and excluded from the WP article. Pyxis Solitary talk 02:37, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Summaries deleted due to copyright violation

Episode summaries copied from Netflix violated Wikipedia's copyright policy and were deleted on 06:21, January 11, 2018. Pyxis Solitary talk 10:54, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Rader

The "ADT Serviceman" is listed as Dennis Rader in articles about the series (http://www.vulture.com/2017/10/mindhunter-netflix-real-serial-killers.html), and the German language Netflix credits (which run after each episode) clearly refer to the guy as "Dennis Rader." Why can't this article refer to him as such? Raider Duck (talk) 18:38, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Because those sources are making assumptions; the character has never been identified as such in the primary source (the show) or by the creators/showrunner. Also there's no rush—he can be named when he's named. —Joeyconnick (talk) 03:31, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Requests for comment (RfC) for Sonny Valicenti

Should we go by MOS:TVCAST as how he credited on the on-screen credits: Sonny Valicenti as ADT serviceman? Or should we go by Sonny Valicenti as ADT serviceman / Dennis Rader (BTK killer) in which sources claimed that Sonny Valicenti is Dennis Rader/BTK Killer (However, TV series itself and on-screen credits did not confirmed this, creator and writers did not confirmed this either, Sonny Valicenti did not confirmed as well; this is pretty much speculations/assumptions as of season 2 the most recent season)? Or Sonny Valicenti as ADT serviceman, who is speculated to be the BTK killer with the sources? — YoungForever^(talk) 16:30, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

As of season 2, Sonny Valicenti is still only credited as ADT serviceman on the end credits. Primary source overrides secondary source. According to MOS:TVCAST, we go by on-screen credits. — YoungForever^(talk) 01:23, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I see nothing at MOS:TVCAST that forbids use of a reliable source beyond the show's credits. And MOS:TVCAST is a guideline, not a policy. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 01:25, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: The article you provided, the actor did not even confirm or deny he is Dennis Rader/BTK Killer. You are adding WP:OR. — YoungForever^(talk) 01:34, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

The actor doesn't have to confirm it. It's stated in a reliable source. Take another look at WP:OR; something that's reliably sourced is not OR.And AGAIN, give us the policy that forbids use of a reliable source to identify a character. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 01:37, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: You are giving misleading information. No where in the articles that you provided that it has been confirmed that he is Dennis Rader/BTK Killer. Speculations are not confirmations. — YoungForever^(talk) 01:43, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I added three four more sources. No, it's you who just stated misleading information. The sources clearly identify the character as Rader. No speculation. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 01:48, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: ALL are speculations/assumptions. Did the TV series as of season 2 confirmed that Sonny Valicenti is Dennis Rader/BTK Killer? No. Did the creator and/or writers confirmed? No. Did the actor, Sonny Valicenti confirmed? No. — YoungForever^(talk) 01:50, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

According to whom? You? They are reliable sources that do not equivocate. Just because you say it's speculation doesn't mean it is. I could claim that every source in the article is speculation, but that doesn't make it true. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 01:53, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL. Have you not seen seasons 1 and 2? It was NEVER confirmed that Sonny Valicenti is Dennis Rader/BTK Killer in seasons 1 and 2. Speculations and assumptions are WP:OR. — YoungForever^(talk) 02:02, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:RS. I've seen every episode of both seasons. And yes, five reliable sources confirm that the character is Rader. Reliable sources trump your opinion. Repeating the same thing over and over and over doesn't make your comments any more valid. And please answer my question: Speculation according to whom? 75.191.40.148 (talk) 02:06, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: Go reread that beginning of this Talk section. The TV series itself and the creator NEVER confirmed Sonny Valicenti is Dennis Rader/BTK Killer yet. — YoungForever^(talk) 02:09, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Go read the five reliable sources. They clearly identify the character as Rader. Look, here's the bottom line. There is ample support in reliable sources to identify the character as Rader. You don't think he's Rader (at least not yet), but multiple reliable sources confirm it. The edit remains in the article. Sorry you don't like that, but that's the way Wikipedia works. Now, I don't intend to repeat myself again just because you want to keep repeating yourself. You're becoming WP:DISRUPTIVE, so until you say something new and in accordance with Wikipedia policy, I have nothing further to say. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 02:17, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: We will see when other editors join this discussion. I have the right to keep discussing. I have stopped reverting you even though you keep on adding speculations/assumptions sources. So, I really don't see how am I being WP:DISRUPTIVE. — YoungForever^(talk) 02:29, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Of course you have the right to keep discussing, especially if you have additional information that you have not already stated, or you respond to another editor. But you don't have the right to repeat the same points over and over again. That is disruptive. Click the link and read it. And I have no obligation to repeatedly respond to such repetition. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 02:47, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: Speak for yourself. There is still no consensus yet. — YoungForever^(talk) 02:52, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I never claimed to speak for anyone besides myself. In the absence of a consensus otherwise, the content of the article is determined by reliable sources. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 03:02, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: I am done here until other editors join this discussion. Clearly, you don't understand assumptions/speculations are not reliable sources. — YoungForever^(talk) 03:10, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm glad you're done because I'm tired of hearing so much repetition. Clearly you don't understand the concept of citing reliable sources to determine article content. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 03:12, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Always defer to the show's credits – if he's just "ADT serviceman" there, then that how we should list it here. So, I'd change what we have to something like, Sonny Valicenti as ADT serviceman, who is speculated to be the BTK killer^[sources] P.S. Five sources for that is WP:OVERCITE – cut it down to the best three sources. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:16, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

• Sonny Valicenti as ADT serviceman / Dennis Rader (BTK killer). I can accept the wording by IJBall, with no modifications. As for overciting, I was fine with one good source, but I was responding to an irrational and repetitive polemic which argued that a reliable source is not sufficient. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 15:25, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Support IJBall's version or YoungForever's version. No-one besides the show and the associated personel is reliable for stating that character's identity as a fact, but it should be fine to add (referenced!) speculation of highly-regarded reviewers. – sgeureka ^t•c 15:43, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

• My vote is Sonny Valicenti as ADT serviceman, who is speculated to be the BTK killer, what IJBall suggested. Sounds more reasonable than flat out claiming Sonny Valicenti is Dennis Rader/BTK Killer because as of season 2 it is still only pure speculations/assumptions. All the sources are not confirmed by the TV series itself (both on-screen credits and each episodes), not confirmed by the creators and/or writers, and not confirmed by Sonny Valicenti, the actor himself. Fans/viewers are just assuming Sonny Valicenti is Dennis Rader/BTK Killer at this point (see above the very beginning of this Talk discussion). I think it is misleading and don't think it is appropriate to add speculations/assumptions when it is never confirmed yet. WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL. — YoungForever^(talk) 16:24, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: There is a big difference between yours and IJBall suggestions, the keyword is "speculated". Enough with your personal attacks towards me. Wikipedia is not a Battleground. I recommend you to stay civil. — YoungForever^(talk) 16:24, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Did I say that there is a small difference between my suggestion and IJBall's suggestion? Please calm down. I believe I'm entitled to agree with someone in this discussion without you personalizing it toward me. I would have suggested similar wording, but you would not have accepted it from me. I was explaining to IJBall why I overlinked; that's not a personal attack, any more so than some of your comments toward me. If you don't like my comments, take it to my talk page. This is not the venue for such comments. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 16:44, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: You have called me irrational and repetitive polemic, that is personal attack. You not given other suggestions other than ADT serviceman / Dennis Rader (BTK killer). Yet, you are still holding on to that. When IJBall made a suggestion, you claimed you would made similar suggestions. Did you made a similar suggestion? The answer is no. — YoungForever^(talk) 17:14, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Will you please calm down. I did not claim to make any suggestions other than the one I made. What the hell do you mean I "am still holding on to that"?? I fully agree with IJBall's suggestion. And again, if you think I've made personal attacks take it to my talk page. Please allow this discussion to continue without the personal drama directed at me. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 17:20, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: Yet, you have continue to revert back your suggestion. That is called still holding on to your suggestion. And I did take to your Talk page with your personal attacks toward me, you have ignored it and reverted it. That's on you, not on me. — YoungForever^(talk) 17:27, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Did you bother to read my edit summary: "A typical consensus discussion lasts more than a few hours. I don't disagree with the wording, and this may very well be the consensus but it can wait for more opinions in the current discussion". That's not "holding on" to anything except Wikipedia policy. Additional discussion could even support your original revert, but we can't decide that in a few hours. Now please, for the last time, stop the personal drama here. This page is for discussing the article, not me. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 17:31, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@75.191.40.148: Yes, I did. This isn't about personal drama. This is about the actions your took on this article. Now, please let's move on. — YoungForever^(talk) 17:44, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I've been asking you to move on for about the last 10 edits. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 17:47, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

• I don't agree that we should always defer to the credits... a few people take that very literally and insist we include things like people's professional designations ("Detective Owen Chan") because "that's how they're credited!" However, in this case... obviously the creators are deliberately avoiding naming the character as yet. But equally obviously, it would be a complete bait-and-switch if it weren't BTK. The sources that list the character as BTK are making assumptions—very reasonable ones, but they're still assumptions. Still, there are quite a few. Something like what IJBall has suggested seems a good compromise, although I'd go with slightly different wording which is hopefully a bit less awkward: Sonny Valicenti as ADT serviceman. It is widely assumed he is the BTK killer.^sources —Joeyconnick (talk) 17:36, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with this suggestion, though I feel this whole situation has been hugely overblown. It's not something that absolutely has to be changed in the article. People could always wait until its confirmed for sure. Esuka (talk) 20:55, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

• Comment - I welcome this RfC. However it poses a bit of a problem for those of us who expressed our choice before the RfC was set up. To avoid confusion, I added my choice to my comment above so that the closer of this RfC isn't confused. I urge others who have expressed their preference prior to today to do the same to avoid confusion. 75.191.40.148 (talk) 00:27, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
• I support the inclusion of Dennis Rader followed by reliable sources (maybe 3?), which the phrasing who is speculated to be the BTK killer or something similar to that effect. Drovethrughosts (talk) 12:38, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support - Sonny Valicenti as ADT serviceman / Dennis Rader (BTK killer), per WP:RS, not like it's a big secret - “Sonny was the perfect choice to play Dennis Rader,” said Laray Mayfield, casting director for Mindhunter. "We needed an actor who appeared to be the average guy next door, but slowly revealed himself to the audience as BTK. Sonny pulls this off in a chilling way.", BTK Killer Dennis Rader (Sonny Valicenti), Known as the BTK Killer for his gruesome method of binding, torturing and then killing his victims, the specter of Rader (Sonny Valicenti), The BTK Killer (Sonny Valicenti) looms over the series yet again, Kansas’ BTK killer (Sonny Valicenti), Dennis Rader (Sonny Valicenti), the BTK killer, continues to lurk in the background, B.T.K. (Sonny Valicenti), BTK Killer (Sonny Valicenti), BTK (Bind, Torture, Kill) strangler, Dennis Rader (Sonny Valicenti), Mindhunter's third season hasn't yet been confirmed, but if it does get the green light, we can be certain that Sonny Valicenti will return as Rader., Sonny Valicenti’s portrayal of Dennis Rader, a onetime ADT Security Services employee who terrorized Wichita, Kansas, for almost 20 years as the BTK serial killer., At the start of each episode in season 2, Dennis Rader (Sonny Valicenti), Dennis Rader, aka the BTK Killer: Who plays him on the show: Sonny Valicenti. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:01, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
  • @Isaidnoway: That sea of lengthy links is kind of unparseable. I recommend something more like this:
    • BTK Killer Dennis Rader (Sonny Valicenti),
    • Known as the BTK Killer for his gruesome method of binding, torturing and then killing his victims, the specter of Rader (Sonny Valicenti),
    • The BTK Killer (Sonny Valicenti) looms over the series yet again,
    • Kansas’ BTK killer (Sonny Valicenti),
    • Dennis Rader (Sonny Valicenti), the BTK killer, continues to lurk in the background,
    • B.T.K. (Sonny Valicenti),
    • BTK Killer (Sonny Valicenti),
    • BTK (Bind, Torture, Kill) strangler, Dennis Rader (Sonny Valicenti),
    • Mindhunter's third season hasn't yet been confirmed, but if it does get the green light, we can be certain that Sonny Valicenti will return as Rader.,
    • Sonny Valicenti’s portrayal of Dennis Rader, a onetime ADT Security Services employee who terrorized Wichita, Kansas, for almost 20 years as the BTK serial killer.,
    • At the start of each episode in season 2, Dennis Rader (Sonny Valicenti),
    • Dennis Rader, aka the BTK Killer: Who plays him on the show: Sonny Valicenti. —96.8.24.95 (talk) 02:17, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
• Is Sonny Valicenti’s character really Dennis Rader? Maybe. There are people that think so. There are people writing for reputable sources that think so. Should it be stated as fact? No. Not while there’s still a “maybe.” —96.8.24.95 (talk) 01:57, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I’m reversing my position, as the show’s casting director said he plays Rader. Unless there’s a source contradicting the casting director, I’d say it’s confirmed that Sonny Valicenti plays Dennis Rader. —96.8.24.95 (talk) 02:09, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

If you read the entire article in the Chicago Tribune, Valicenti, along with the casting director, confirmed it as well - Valicenti is as eager as fans to learn whether there will be another season, and if he’ll be a part of it. “I have not gotten a phone call,” the actor said. “It just depends on where Dennis Rader is in his life” vs. where the series picks up next.

And then further down in the article, specifically number - 5. The actor did his homework - For Fincher and Valicenti, the key in portraying the BTK Strangler was asking, “What is the human being in this scene? How can we understand what happened without condoning it?” And then quotes from Valicenti about watching Rader’s 45-minute confession on YouTube, reading excerpts of Rader’s journal in a book by John Douglas, and spending 24 hours in Wichita, following a map from the journal.

Additionally, there is this interview with Holt McCallany in Esquire - The Mindhunter Cast Explains the BTK Killer's Role in Season Two and Beyond - where McCallany talks about the second episode of season two, Holt McCallany’s [character] Bill Tench travels to Kansas to interview Kevin Bright, a young man who survived a home invasion in which his sister was murdered by the BTK Killer.

Another interview in a panel discussion with Groff, McCallany, Torv, and Britton with Vulture, where McCallany states Valicenti portrays Rader: HM: "Are you talking about the scenes with BTK? To be honest, I think that this was an idea that came to David later in the season when we were shooting. And he decided to add that. And the actor who plays Dennis Rader, Sonny Valicenti. He’s a really, really talented guy and has really captured the attention of the audience much in the way that our good friend Cameron Britton did." Isaidnoway (talk) 07:37, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

S01E09 Summary: "When the clock strikes midnight…"?

Current summary of S01E09 states the clock strikes midnight at the beginning. However, I've double checked the first minute and we could only hear nine strikes. There doesn't seem to have any jump within the one-minute timeline, while my only concern is whether the strikes could be heard from the street. I'd appreciate if anyone could point to any other references, and if not, shall we change the current "midnight" to "nine at night"? Skywayer (talk) 10:40, 24 August 2019 (UTC)