Talk:Margaret Travers Symons

What did she actually shout?

This article is internally inconsistent about what it is she shouted - the lead says she shouted "address the women's issue," but the actual article body says she shouted "Votes for Women!" Neither is sourced, and the sources out there seem to disagree with each other - this article in the Independent agrees with our lead, this blog post our article cites elsewhere says she said "Leave off discussing the children’s question and attend to women first. Votes for Women!" And then BBC History Magazine says she said "Leave off discussing the children's question and give votes to the women first!"

It seems to me like we don't have any other choice than to go with a lame "sources disagree..." kind of wording, but I'll leave this here a while first in case someone has a better idea. -Elmer Clark (talk) 19:14, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

@Elmer Clark: I've created a list of quotations as per your suggestion. However, I had to leave the citation for the BBC History Magazine incomplete as I don't have access to it. Would you be so kind as to complete that? Thanks. —howcheng {chat} 03:19, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Done, and nice work, this is a big improvement. Strangely I can't access the article from my own link either, only directly from Google search results. -Elmer Clark (talk) 07:17, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Father, husband

I think her father was Robert Williams (1848-1918), as here. I also think her husband was William Travers Symons (born 1879), known as a journalist in the 1920s and 1930s.

I came to this from research outlined on Talk:Philip Mairet. The clincher for me is that both Robert Williams, and Henry (Harry) James Symons (c.1851-1918), who I reckon is the father of William Travers Symons, lived in Lee, London. This would mean that Margaret and William could have met as neighbours.

The article says the husband was from New Zealand. HJ Symons certainly had business connections there, in the insurance world. It is quite plausible that the sheep-farming husband had been set up there by his 20s by his father.

@Billinghurst: @Dsp13: it would certainly be useful to stand up these family connections and strengthen this article. Robert Williams was on the London County Council and had progressive views, so that Keir Hardie isn't hard to explain.

Travers Symons would be worth an article, also. Ally of Charles William Daniel, crops up with T. S. Eliot. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:53, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

So this story "How It Was Managed" about the House of Commons incident identifies Mrs. Travers Williams as "the daughter of Mr. Robert Williams, an architect, at present engaged in Cairo, formerly of the London County Council." Good enough. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:27, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Robert Williams in the Directory of British Architects: [1]. Obituary in The Builder: [2] Charles Matthews (talk) 08:47, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Divorce

• The National Archives; Kew, Surrey, England; Court for Divorce and Matrimonial Causes, later Supreme Court of Judicature: Divorce and Matrimonial Causes Files, J 77; Reference Number: J 77/997/279, 15pp and can download if required

Name: Margaret Ann Symons
Gender: Female
Record Type: Divorce
Type: Wife's petition for divorce [WD]
Petition Date: 1910-2-1; decree nisi 1910-5-27
Spouse: William Travers Symons
Divorce Court File Number: 279

Census

• 1891 England

Name: Robert Williams, architect
Gender: Male
Age: 43
Relationship: Head
Birth Year: 1848
Spouse: Elizabeth A Williams
Child: Margareta Williams
Imgo L Williams
Birth Place: Pendoylan, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil parish: Lee
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mildreds
Residence Place: Lee, London, England
Registration district: Lewisham
Sub registration district: Lee
ED, Institution or Vessel: 16a
Piece: 519
Folio: 109
Household Members Age Relationship
Robert Williams 43 Head
Elizabeth A Williams 44 Wife
Margareta Williams 17 Daughter
Inigo L Williams 15 Son
Elizabeth S Applegate 37 Visitor
Emmeline A Dowsett 27 Servant

This indicates that the 1879 birth date is misleading, and would be 1874. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:42, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

• 1901 England

Name: Margaret A Williams
Age: 27
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Paddington, London, England
Civil Parish: Bromley
Ecclesiastical parish: Chislehurst the Annunciation
Town: Bromley
Occupation: Governess
Condition as to marriage:
Registration District: Bromley
Sub-registration District: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Piece: 683
Folio: 122
Page Number: 22
Household Schedule Number: 112
Name Age
John Dewrance 43 Mechanical engineer
Isabella A Dewrrance 40
Claire Durrance 15
Margaret A Williams 27
Edith M Cocks 32
Elizabeth Rose 73
Susannah A Osborne 23
Amy Berley 37

Believe this to be Sir John Dewrance

• 1881 Wales

Name: Margaret Ann Williams
Age: 9
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Female
Where born: London Paddington, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Merthyr Tydfil
Street Address: 78 Thomas Street
Occupation: Scholar
Registration District: Merthyr Tydfil
Sub registration district: Lower Merthyr Tydfil
ED, institution, or vessel: 33
Piece: 5313
Folio: 104
Page Number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
David Evans 50 printer compositor
Anne Evans 48
John H. Evans 13
Maggie Evans 19
Kate Evans 16
Margaret Ann Williams 9
Inigo Rees Williams 5

Baptism

• London Metropolitan Archives; London, England; London Church of England Parish Registers; Reference Number: P87/MAA/001

Name: Margaret Ann Williams
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 1 Feb 1874; birth Aug 18, 1873
Baptism Place: St Michael and All Angels, Paddington, Westminster, England
Father: Robert Williams, carpenter, living 3 Sale St.
Mother: Margaret Williams
Register Type: Parish Register

Right time and place for corrected age, though wife of Robert is different from 1891 census. Tracking down that death and a re-marriage through records will be tough, it will require on more contextual secondary records. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:59, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

 Confirmed you may change the year, you don't change the day/month — billinghurst sDrewth 22:08, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Birth

• FreeBMD

Name: Margaret Ann Williams
Registration Year: 1873 Sep. Q.
Registration District: Kensington
Volume: 1a
Page: 71

What is the evidence for "Mary Ann" it doesn't seem to be supported by records. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:22, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Publications

• London Metropolitan Archives; London, England; Electoral Registers

Name: Margaret Travers-Symons
Electoral Date: 1950
Street Address: 17 LC-Lehmann, Victor
Ward or Division/Constituency: Holborn and St Pancras
County or Borough: Camden, England

Comment

Quick searches only show Symons in 1940s directories and 1939 Register, so it is going to need digging, especially as double-barrelled surnames are quirky and irregular in records and complicated further in trancriptions. She is shown as Margaret Ann Williams at marriage so if she is also Mary Ann Williams, that is again further complicating picking apart in the early years, especially with a Robert as father with no clear years of life. They also married/divorced between 1901 and 1911 census so not even kicking those into play.

William Travers Symons is 1879-1976.

Will need to get some clear, extended research and thinking time, which I don't quite have momentarily. Will see what I can patch together. — billinghurst sDrewth 21:20, 9 October 2021 (UTC)