Talk:Mansa (title)

Meaning of the word "mansa"

mansas are mandinka kings --Dvyost 5 July 2005 23:20 (UTC)

Thanks, User:Dvyost. Based on your confirmation, we have corrected the opening line in the article.Davidbena (talk) 00:56, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, no. Of your five sources: one is a translation from 1929; one is from Forbidden Fruit, LLC, a publisher whose Website is (only) plugging "Baptized In Game", a dating manual for sleazebags (so clearly a reputable academic publisher, then?); one is a guide to grammar which happens to use "mansa" in passing; and two are quoting that 1929 translation. If the overwhelming majority of scholars agree this, you ought to be able to do a little better in citing it. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:21, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

In the mean time:

• https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TKh_21ZERH4C&pg=PA75

Rejoinder: The quote taken from, The Sahara: A Cultural History (published in 2011), seems to be used here merely as an honorary title, and was not meant to be understood as the literal meaning of the word “mansa”. For it says: “Musa I, better known as Mansa Musa, King of Kings, that really brought the Mali Empire to the attention of the wider world.” Perhaps, too, it is a take-off from D.T. Niane's words in his 1984 publication (see infra).Davidbena (talk) 00:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZPnDBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA116

Rejoinder: Here, in this 2015 publication, it says: “Sundiata became the Mansa, king of kings, and was declared Emperor of Mali.” Again, the author seems to have followed merely D.T. Niane's use of this epithet in his 1984 publication (see infra).Davidbena (talk) 00:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0XCM1QgmVnMC&pg=PA204

Rejoinder: Here, in Managing Conflicts in Africa's Democratic Transitions (published in 2012), the author writes: “…Sundiata took the title ‘Mansa,’ king of kings, as the first ruler of the Mali Empire.” The author, like the previous authors, seems to have followed merely D.T. Niane's use of this epithet in his 1984 publication (see infra).Davidbena (talk) 00:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SPBfnT_E1mgC&pg=PA184

Rejoinder: Mr. John Shoup, in his Ethnic Groups of Africa and the Middle East: An Encyclopedia (published in 2011), writes: “Sundiata took the title of Mansa, meaning, ‘King of Kings,’ which his descendants continued to use, etc.” The author, like the previous authors, seems to have followed merely D.T. Niane's use of this epithet in his 1984 publication (see infra).Davidbena (talk) 00:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TpjwF--kPL4C&pg=PA134

Rejoinder: Here, D.T. Niane (published in 1984) clearly writes: “(a) Sundiata was solemnly proclaimed mansa (in Malinke), or maghan (in Soninke), meaning emperor, king of kings,” but, later, he seems to correct himself by writing: “(d) The mansa was to be the supreme judge, the patriarch, the father of all his subjects: hence the formula, `M'Fa Mansa` (King, my father), for addressing the king.” It is, therefore, not conclusive from his own words that the word mansa means "king of kings."-Davidbena (talk) 00:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kFJNBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA455 # dubious

Rejoinder: This source, A History of Islamic Societies (pub. 1988), p. 455, is quoted as saying: "...The supreme ruler was a King of Kings. He bore the military title of mansa, conqueror." Again, this seems to be a take-off from D.T. Niane's use of the words "king of kings" when describing the word "mansa" in his 1984 edition, "Africa from the Twelfth to the Sixteenth Century," although here, this current author, seems to use "king of kings" simply as an epithet or "title of honor," without indicating that the word "mansa" actually means "king of kings." As you said, it is dubious.Davidbena (talk) 00:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

That's just a start. They're not all based on the same translation of Ibn Battuta. Should I go on? Pinkbeast (talk) 14:32, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

You may also wish to refer to a journal, History in Africa, Vol. 32 (2005), pp. 321-369, where the author, Matt Schaffer, writes there in his article entitled, Bound to Africa: The Mandinka Legacy in the New World, (see: in JSTOR, Click here, if you have access): "...Massa is in fact the correct Bainouk and Cassanga ethnic group pronunciation of mansa, the famous word used so widely among the adjacent and dominant Mande peoples in northern and coastal west Africa to denote 'king' or 'boss'." END QUOTE. If you'd like, you can also see countless other web-sites that properly define the word, e.g. Britannica/Mandingo, where it defines the word mansa as sultan; see also Mali-Empire, where the word is defined as "king." By the way, the word "sultan" is an Arabic word for "king." The use of "king of kings" is only when the words "mansa" are used twice, as in "mansa mansa."Davidbena (talk) 14:56, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

One more thing: You might also want to see the academic journal, The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute, Vol. 3, No. 2 (Jun., 1997), pp. 213-232, in an article written by Luc de Heusch, entitled "The Symbolic Mechanisms of Sacred Kingship: Rediscovering Frazer," where he quotes primarily from French scholar, J. Bazin (author of work, Princes désarmés, corp dangereux: les ‘rois-femmes’ de la region de Segu, published in 1988), and writes on page 227: “…at the time of the foundation of the kingdom of Segu the warrior Maamari Kulubali addressed himself to the mansa of a neighbouring city, Digani, in order to calm a conflict (Bazin 1988: 398). Bazin further reports ‘it seems that in certain cases the Segu state encouraged this multiplication of kingly arbitrators’ (1988: 397). But Bazin himself seems to turn away from the hypothesis which he himself suggests – namely, that the kingship has a dual structure – in favour of a contingent historical explanation according to which the mansa is the product of a ‘successful reconversion’ (1988: 381). The twelve provinces which made up the ancient ‘kingdom of Mali’ were each placed under the authority of a mansa or ‘sultan’ (1988: 384). These powerful seventeenth-century chiefs ‘had to exchange their past splendour for this modest status of judge-arbitrator’ (1988: 394).” END QUOTE. If you have access to JSTOR, you can find it here. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 19:28, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Another excerpt that is particularly interesting is taken from the journal, The International Journal of African Historical Studies, Vol. 31, No. 2 (1998), pp. 253-278, where Jan Jansen writes in his article on page 256: “ Mansa is generally translated as 'king,' 'ruler' or 'ancestor.' The Griaulians, however, often translate mansa as 'God,' 'the divine principle' or 'priest king,' although they never argue the choice for this translation, which has an enormous impact on their analysis of the Kamabolon ceremony.” (See in JSTOR: The International Journal of African Historical Studies). The author also brings down there in a footnote (p. 256, note 8) where he found in the Modern French-Mandingo Dictionary, Dictionnaire Bambara-Français (Bamako, 1996), that it explains the word "mansa" as meaning (on page 270) "généalogie royale" (⇒ royal genealogy), and also meaning (on page 140, note 143) "prêtre-roi" (⇒ priest-king). In this case, the word is used like in the Arabic word "Imam," which is also a "priest king."Davidbena (talk) 23:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Pinkbeast, as you can see, the evidence is overwhelming. I can cite many, many more academic sources, if you'd like. One is from a 1849 publication by a missionary, John Leighton Wilson, who served in West Africa and who wrote an article entitled, Comparative Vocabularies of Some of the Principal Negro Dialects of Africa, in which he brings down a comparative chart on page 350 (folio 2b) in the Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 1, No. 4 (1849), and where he gives the English word "king" with its Mandingo equivalent, "mansa." You can see it here, with a FREE DOWNLOAD.Davidbena (talk) 01:27, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Another thing worthy of mentioning is that Maurice Delafosse, perhaps the most authoritative researcher in the field of Old Mali history, has written a book in French on Mandingo language and grammar, entitled, La langue mandingue et ses dialects (Malinké, Bambara, Dioula), published in Paris in 1929, wherein he says on page 612 that the French word "roi" (English: king) is: mã-nsa, mã-sa, mā-sa, ma-nsa-kye.--Davidbena (talk) 17:30, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

And had all this not been enough, you may also wish to see the book, "Tarikh es-Soudan," by Abderrahman ben Abdallah ben 'Imran ben 'Amir es-Saʻdi, with its original Arabic text and a French translation made by O. Houdas, printed in Paris in 1964. In Chapter III, p. 15 of book, note 2, the translator writes: 2. Mansa en mandé signifie <<roi>>; c’est un titre, ce n’est pas un nom; quant à Kankan, c’est le nom d’une ville visitée par René Caillé. (Translation: 2. Mansa in Mandinka means "king"; it is a title, not a name; concerning Kankan, it is the name of a city visited by René Caillé).--Davidbena (talk) 04:55, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

In addition to this, you may also wish to see the book, "The Gambia Colony and Protectorate" (published in 1967 by Frank Cass & Co. Ltd.), by Francis Bisset Archer, where he brings down a Mandingo vocabulary list in Part vii of that book, and where he writes on page 205 that the Mandingo word for "king" and "governor" is mansa.---Davidbena (talk) 14:46, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Very well. I don't understand why you didn't start with good references, but you clearly have them. Pinkbeast (talk) 07:47, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

At Musa I of Mali we've just had "conqueror" added with this cite: Lapidus, Ira M. A History of Islamic Societies. 3rd ed. New York, NY: Cambridge University Press, 2014. pg 455 - is there something wrong with it, or should we add it here? Pinkbeast (talk) 21:15, 27 May 2017 (UTC)