Talk:Ma Ying-jeou/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Allegations of homosexuality

Why has no one added anything about his alleged homosexual affair with DJ Chocolate?

http://wendyista.blogspot.com/2009/02/taiwans-president-caught-up-in-gay-sex.html http://www.topix.com/world/taiwan/2009/02/president-of-taiwan-in-gay-sex-scandal http://showhype.com/story/taiwan_s_pres_in_gay_sex_scandal_with_american_dj/ BlueJames19 (talk) 00:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

What? And bottom of the WP:TALK page, please. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly, none of these sources are reliable. Laurent (talk) 09:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Personal

Can someone add more details about Ma's family. Ma has 2 daugthers and their names are Lesley W. Ma (Ma Wei-chung, 馬唯中) and Kelly Ma (Ma Yuan-chung, 馬元中). They are twins. Reference:

http://www.digitalalchemy.tv/2008/03/taiwan-election-look-at-first-daughters.html Rambowikinator (talk) 13:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)rambowikinator

Portrait

Can someone use a better picture than that? I mean he's suppose to be known for his charm and good looks, and the best picture you can find is THAT? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.8.8.241 (talk • contribs) .

A couple constraints we have is that it has to be an image that is not copyrighted and should be relatively recent. --Nlu (talk) 00:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

changed image--Jiang 10:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

This is the greatest picture of all time. 65.29.62.75 17:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC) 41.221.103.203 (talk) 23:14, 18 September 2010 (UTC) I fail to see the relevance of how good looking or charming a president needs to be to fulfill his duties. I remember young voters claiming that they would vote for Ma simply based on his looks. A president's ability to govern, to uphold the right morals, to do what is best for his country outweighs any fantasy on how charming he may look. So, as long as it is a clear picture of him, it is a sufficiently accurate representation in my opinion. And being a pro green individual, i frankly couldn't care less for how he looks. His provocation with regards to the prosecution of the former president is sickening and hypocritical in consideration that he is alleged to have embezzled an even greater sum of funds and should face heftier corruption charges but has been able to avoid it all due to the gross majority of KMT seating in the justice systems of taiwan. And to think someone wants to talk about good looks...pathetic.

41.221.103.203 (talk) 23:14, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Unification views

This paragraph is weird: "In a December 2005 Newsweek International interview when asked about unification, Ma stated that "for our party, the eventual goal is reunification, but we don't have a timetable," explaining that he meant it was a choice for Taiwan but a choice for the Chinese KMT." Shouldn't it be something like unification is KMT's goal and not a "choice", but a choice for Taiwan in general? This just doesn't look right to me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.210.105.24 (talk) 08:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

- There is a division in Taiwan with pro-unification, pro-status quo and pro-Taiwan independence groups. It is difficult to convince one or the other to accept different political ideologies and concepts because these three views are conflicted with each other in nature with the attention on sovereignty.

KMT's choices to the One China issue are two; one is ROC and another one is that China would be unified as a whole in the long-term future. What Ma said in the interview is the second choice that China would be unified as a whole in the long-term future.

Recent editing/reversions

I am fairly new to Wikipedia, but this article appears to be already subject to a fairly heated dispute. Is there a way to get some kind of talk going here? I think that some compromise can be reached. 13:49, 20 Jul 2005 (UTC)

NPOV of criticism section

The section on "Political Ideology" is not npov. Far from an overview of all his political positions, it just gives a one-sided account on how he has opposed democratization. It is also ungrammatical. --Jiang 05:49, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That section were merely stating truth which tell reader about his political ideology. For me, these are NPOV. I was there sitting in front of TV and convinced by Ma that indirect presidential election is better than direct one. If you say that is POV. It is your POV. For me, that is truth that I experienced. To stand on a neutralized point, I believe the response from Ma's campaign was included already. If you have refutal evidence, please present it. Otherwise, the paragraph stands. If you have any opinion on the grammer, please fix it as well.Mababa 06:03, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If you do not agree on the title of "political ideology" but also can not disagree with the sentence, please make suggestions for a new title.06:08, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

One-sided truth can still be truth. The text makes it seem that supporting indirect presidential elections makes him anti-democratic or that in opposing modifying Article 100 he supports martial law. "insisted" is also the wrong word to use. The first sentence of the paragraph is the topic sentence that all other sentences are based on. I also don't see how "not allowing the ROC national flag to be flown along with a PRC flag during a cross-strait soccer match" has to do with his political ideology. There is only speak of criticism. Where is the support? --Jiang 06:44, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sure, the first sentence of the paragraph is the topic sentence. However, the following sentences were not base on the first one. Contrarily, I would rather say the first sentence was the conclusion people usually will draw from the following sentence. These are his own records. The sentence did not say that he was anti-democracy. It only says that he holds opposite position in major democratization event. If you want to make modifications or change the tone, please do whatever you want. But leave his record for the public to review.Mababa 07:01, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Holding "opposite position in major democratization event" implies he is against democracy. I'm not disputing the factual accuracy here. I'm disputing the neutrality. It is not neutral just to criticize the guy. --Jiang 09:59, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If you think criticizing is not neutral, then is praising neutral? Ma has already recieved the praising that he deserved in other paragraphs, didn' he? What would you say if we come up something that make these fact laudable? Something like "Ma's proposal of indirect election would cut down the cost of election process" ? Or you can add more things praising his contribution to the society into the paragraph. I would not against anything that you put into the paragraph as long as you keep the record intact.

This is not something people make up. This is part of the common history of the Taiwan. I believe there is nothing wrong to mark these events and it is not shameful to present one's public service record. Sometimes fact are the only neutral thing. Again, please remove any non-neutral or even denigrating components there if there is any. If anything you think is other than neutral, please remove it and keep the factual description there. Do whatever you think to be appropriate. Remove the "opposite position in major democratization event" sentence, too. Let the readers draw their own conclusion. If you can find update about Ma's position on these accounts, please add them onto the page as well. Let's have the neutral factual sentences and have records tell the only neutral truth. Mababa 18:35, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm saying that reports of (not assertions of) criticisms should be balanced with reports of (not assertions of) support. We should not praise anything here. We only report other people's criticisms or praise. I don't see how the rest of the article is "praise". Even if so, creating a section of pure criticism is not how we should be solving npov. Again, I'm not saying there's false info. It's just not balanced. --Jiang 19:23, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There is a huge gap of understanding here. Whereas I believe these descriptions are "reports of fact" which contains no denegrading stuff nor praising things, you think the facts can be divided into "criticisms" and "supports". I am not sure where is the standard. I also do not understand how to change the paragraph to match your criteria. To me, this is merely a section of simple neutral description. As I said earlier, if you can find the "supporting" material, please put them on and make them neutral in your way. Again, please do whatever you want if you insist this is a dispute of neutrality. Modify them to make them neutral. If you think these report are something made up and should be taken away from public eyes, then take them away if you believe it to be appropriate. Hopefully other people can also give us some advice in this matter. If you merely want to point out your objection, perhaps we should leave the sign of NPOV dispute there as it is on the page.Mababa 20:43, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi Jiang, with your auspision, I intend to remove the NPOV sign on the article since I did not hear back from you. Looking forward to your response.Mababa 04:58, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

They may be statements of fact, but I still say they're rather one sided. Let me try to clarify. Wouldn't focusing everything on "standing at the opposite side during Taiwan democratization" be one sided because it is assumed "Taiwan democratization" is a good thing and Ma shouldn't stand against it? In another instance, did Ma have a choice of whether to display the ROC flag in the stadium? Also, with the first sentence, saying Ma opposed the referendum implies Ma was standing against its democratic aspect, which was not the case. --Jiang 03:52, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I tried to incorporate most of the content into the body of the article because a section based solely on criticism, worded as it was, was highly biased. I assumed opposition to the anti-subversion law was during his tenure as justice minister? if not, when?

I left out the following: "He spoke against direct presidential popular vote and insisted on indirect election. Ma also opposed the supreme court's opinion which held custody decision made by prosecuters as unlawful and in breach of human rights. "

I can't find evidence of the first sentence online. Please verify it. The second sentence is too vague and I have no idea what it refers to. Which supreme ct opinion? on what specific court case? when did this happen? why was ma opposed to it? --Jiang 15:27, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Drinking incident

Is his drinking incident even mentionable for an encyclopedia article? BlueShirts 18:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

At the time it seemed notable -- and it helped to counteract what some other editors perceived as a pro-Ma bias in the article. (To tell the truth, I myself think that the article stands a little too pro-Ma.) As time went by and nothing else developed from that incident (i.e., it now appears clear that Ma does not have a drinking problem -- although that incident raised a possible inference at the time), maybe it is no longer notable. Thoughts, folks? --Nlu (talk) 19:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know, but I think this is rather minor and should be deleted. I mean, he has other similar stuff like when he yelled at reporters during the KMT chairman election. These incidents have some small effect undermining his clean image, but I think they're not long-lasting or even significant by tabloid standards. BlueShirts 20:43, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I do not believe that it should be included. If nobody objects, I'm gonna go ahead and delete the section. I don't know why this was even entered. Almost all public figures have these little incidents, and you do not see it on their articles on wikipedia. Therefore, to remain as an encyclopaedia, I do believe that the drinking part should be deleted. --Big Wang 06:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

This drinking incident has its meaning, if you dare to explore it.

(1) It is well known Ma like to talk about high moral standard in front of media but when comes to his own business, both in his city and private, this high standard most of time, does not apply.

(2) Mr. Ma as mayor of Taipei had explicitly DEMANDED all staffs of Taipei city DO NOT drink during business hours including lunch time but it looks like Mr. Ma is NOT include when comes to this incident.

So, should this incident be considered just one time deal? Well, people will have their own judgment.--[[User:] 13:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This is so typical. The pro Ma folk want the article to look clean and any negativity seems unnecessary. If it happened and was not a fictional entry then what exactly is the problem. It happened, its a fact, so there's no harm in mentioning it and if it does tarnish his image for the Ma lovers out there then live with it, maybe he shouldn't have done it in the first place. After all, politics is a bit of a show and is about a persons public image representing his sound morality or character. Reading through all this, its all erase this, don't say that because it makes him sound anti democratic, well if he is then whats the problem. Its almost like the homosexuality issue! Don't put it in, it sounds scandalous...well, if it had been a proven matter, heck, slap it right on in! Its like saying whether a person is male or female shouldn't be mentioned because it might create sexual discrimination. If it is it is, go on right it all down...whats with all the taboo with some people! 41.221.103.203 (talk) 23:32, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Doctorate?

Does Ma have a doctorate, i.e., a Doctor of Laws or Doctor of Philosophy degree? If not, it is incorrect to refer to him as "Dr. Ma" - an SJD alone does not confer the "Doctor" salutation (otherwise every lawyer in America would be "Doctor" So-and-so). But he may have an actual doctorate... Anyone know for sure?

an SJD degree does indeed confer the honorific of doctor. the vast majority of lawyers in America only have a JD, not a SJD. An SJD is intended for academics.--Jiang 07:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Five Do´s

This expression is spelled in 2 different ways in the text, and is not explained. Could we be told what the Five Do´s are? Adam 09:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I meant to get to this sometime: His "five do's" are "to accept the consensus of 1992," "to reach an agreement on peace for 30 to 50 years with China," "to promote all-round economic and trade exchanges," "to end a zero sum game in international politics" and "to enhance cultural interchange.", "The five points of the initiative are: To resume negotiations between Taiwan and China based on the so-called "1992 consensus" (agreeing to disagree about the definition of "one China"); to reach a peace accord with confidence building measures; to facilitate economic exchanges with the aim of eventually establishing a common market; to work with China to boost Taiwan's presence in international bodies and to expand educational and cultural exchanges."--Jiang 09:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. On the spelling of this, the strictly correct form would be Five Dos. If "Do" is an English noun then its plural should be "Dos." I agree this doesn´t look very elegant. Five Does, however, must be wrong - it means five female deer. That leaves Five Do´s, which is probably the least bad alternative, although using an apostrophe before the plural s is usually to be deplored. You will be interested to know, Jiang, that I am currently at the China Democracy Conference in Berlin, and just heard Wei Jingsheng speak (not very well). Adam 15:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Lead section POV

The following text in the lead section is not NPOV for obvious reasons:

Often well-known for his vows and efforts against so-called "black gold politicians" in his capacity of Minister of Justice in the early 1990s, Ma staged quite a Théâtre de l'absurde as the Chairman of Kuomintang in lending his charisma to back controversial candidates in local elections, most of whom now prosecuted or even sentenced with charges of corruption or vote buying. However, passion of Pan-Blue supporters never waned for these observed insconsistencies, and some even identify themselves as "Fans of Ma".

First, please do not insert French into an English language encyclopedia. Théâtre de l'absurde is not commonly used in English, and is incomprehensible for most readers. Second, pointing out that Ma has campaigned for less than admirable politicians is an aspect of his chairmanship that is much too detailed to be in the lead section. It belongs in the chairmanship section, but the lead section is for general material. Third, claiming that campaigning for certain candidates in light of a clean personal reputation is "absurd" and constitutes "inconsistencies" are inherently conclusions based on personal opinion. Wikipedia rules do not permit editorializing. Fourth, although it can be stated than Ma retains high popularity ratings in general, the juxtaposition of them as "passionate" and Ma as someone who is "inconsistent" is POV: the sentence makes it seem that there is a sole indicator to be used to judge Ma (his consistency) and that his supporters don't care about these "inconsistencies". Fifth, the claim that a specific phrase "Fans of Ma" is used by Ma Ying-jeou supporters seems to be made up.

We are here to provide material in both a neutral and accurate manner. Please do not spice it up. This is not the place to do it.--Jiang 01:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Mayorship

Anyone knows why those "mishaps" listed at this section are all broken? In the mean time, the incident of Ho-ping hospital during SARS out-break is not just a mishap, in my honest opinion. A book which dedicated to remember this SARS event in Taiwan could be found at this URL[1], if you can read chinese. The author of this book was a NYU Ph.D. candidate at that time and was helping experts from CDC sent to Taiwan for this out-break. Whoever would like to categorize and downplay this Ho-ping hospital incident during SARS period as "mishap" better finish this book first. --[[User:] 19:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I would recommend changing 'mishaps' to 'incidents,' seeing as mishaps may allude to bad luck instead of failed policies and general negligence.

languages

Ma is fluent in Mandarin Chinese and speaks fluent English. 
Ma also speaks Taiwanese and French.

isnt this POV?

Uh, how so? Either he does or he doesn't. There's no value judgement here; it's simply a list of the languages he is capable of speaking.

Spy for KMT at Harvard?

Ummm, no offence but where did this random piece of information come from? Is it just a rumour or is it seriously substantiated. Additionally what would the KMT spy on Harvard for? There are obvious NPOV problems with this 137.82.13.189 17:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed it as unsourced negative info per WP:BLP. Thank you for bringing this to our attention! Kusma (討論) 18:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I use Google try to find some information on this issue, and here's some in Chinese:

• 哈佛教授指證 馬英九是校園間諜「KMT spy」 Harvard Professor say Ma is a KMT spy when Ma was in Harvard
• 馬英九做職業學生，有圖為證！ Ma as a political spy in Harvard
• 哈佛故事 (The Harvard Story), Liberty Times
• 馬英九回函 (Answers on The Harvard Story from Ma), Liberty Times

Maybe it's just a rumor, but it's been reported by the media. According to the story, Ma acted as a KMT spy to see what Taiwanese students do in the campus and report their possible political activities which might against the KMT ruling power in Taiwan, but I do not know it's true or not. Does NPOV mean to include all points about the article? --H.T. Chien (Discuss|Contributions) 04:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

This says that the matter was a misunderstanding, so probably not worth reporting in this article. I can't find a proof for Cohen's confirmation of that right now, though (and would need a dictionary to read all those articles in Chinese). With the amount of smear attacks going on in Taiwanese politics, it is probably not worth mentioning every rumored affair in every Taiwanese politician's biography (is there a politician where you can't write a "rumors of corruption" section?) Kusma (討論) 09:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Do we not know anything about Ma Ying-jeou here? Ma has long been accused of being a student spy at Harvard by the democracy side, at least as far back as 1989, when Winston Dang published that, without using his name, in the introduction to "Taiwangate", a compilation on student spying in the US. These accusations have resurfaced with the election. Since that has been a claim long reported about Ma, especially within pro-democracy circles, it should be included here, along with Ma's disclaimer and the current lawsuit 163.17.7.193 09:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)Michael Turton

Disagree,the "Harvard Spy event" is not cited by reputable source nor massively reported(In contrast,"Special funds scandal" is massively reported by many international media).Putting it into Wikipedia may break the "Undue Weight" rule of NPOV guideline.Secondly,if we put every accusation from every source about a politician into Wikipedia,Wikipedia will become unreadable.d8888(Discuss)

Possibly hypocrisy

"Some commentators have criticized Ma because when President Chen Shui Bian's wife was indicted by prosecutors (President Chen was not indicted due to his presidential immunity) Ma continuously demanded for the President to step down. However, when Ma himself was indicted, he immediately declared his candidacy for the presidency. Moreover, some found it hypocritical that KMT is considering ending the party rule barring members from running if charged with crimes beause Ma himself was the main advocate for the rule he became the chairman of the KMT in order to give a sense of his advocacy for clean government."

This should be present at a forum for discussion, not necessarily appearing on an encyclopedic source. Huangj2 22:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Special Funds Abuse Case References

For some reason, Vic has been deleting unsourced statements from the article instead of marking them as uncited. Here are a couple of English articles for reference on Ma's previous positions:

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2006/08/03/2003321598 - Ma's initial position was the money was separate. It has since been found (and he has admitted) that the funds were directly transferred into his personal accounts, parts of which were also then transferred to his wife's personal account. Ma now admits it and claims the special funds are simply a part of his salary. http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2006/11/24/2003337629

This is inaccurate.As mentioned in the judgement(http://issue.udn.com/960814.txt ).Ma said that "He used all of special funds on public" and "If Special Funds is public fund,then .....",but he never said Special Funds is public fund.The usage of "Special funds" is "Reimburse on recepit",which means you spend money first,and then tell government how much you have spent,and then the government will give you money.Since you have already spent the money already,so when government gives you the money("Reimbursement"),you are of course allowed to use them wherever you like.

- Ma later claimed that he used all funds on 公務 and 公益, which means they were for official uses and public good (charitable donations). The funds have been found to not have been used in this matter (what was donated were leftover campaign contributions). This also differs from his current position which is that the funds are no different from his salary.

If there are other people who read Chinese, please help in correcting these deletions. It is so common in the media, but non-Chinese readers may be suspicious. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.114.75.23 (talk) 10:15, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Technically, I can read Chinese news, but since I've been in U.S. for a long while I do not check on it too much. Per WP:BLP, controversial informations against the person of the article should be deleted on sight (as quoted by Jimbo Wales) unless it can be properly sourced. So by not doing researches and deleting the information I would hold part of the responsibility. However, I just want to stress the importance of citing source(s) that support the newly-added negative claims. That's all.

What I still don't understand, however, is the deletion of other reliable sources from sites like Boston.com and CNN.com, as the last revert by User:140.114.75.23 indicated. Specifically, one sentence says: "The resignation was subsequently rejected by the party's central standing committee." However, the title in the source I included next to it indicates clearly that "KMT rejects, then accepts chairman's resignation". Hence the change in that information is only to make the logic clear throughout the paragraph, as it later mentions: "... At a press conference following his resignation and indictment..." which would somewhat contradict the original sentence about the "subsequently rejected" resignation. Please also note that KMT amended the clause after the initial rejection and before the acceptance of Ma's resignation, so the last sentence was brought up into the middle of the paragraph. Besides, the revert also isolated a link between two paragraphs and made the article one bit less encyclopedic. I will still make some adjustment on the last revert, however I will not mess with the now-sourced information. Vic₂₂₆ 18:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

After the 1st and 2nd edit: I'm not trying to be anti-climatic here, but the links you provided above have problems on the dates when they were published. It also makes me notice that this problem has been going on for some months.

1. The second one is dated way back: August 3. I'm not even sure how to explain this one, as it's published about six-and-half months before the embezzlement we are debating about. I don't believe there's such thing as crystal ball predictions in news, so the link might not as well fit into the information itself. I still left it there, however, but someone has to find a proper source that is also dated around February 14. Only one puzzle piece would fit into another.
2. The first one is dated November 24, which would fit a little better if we rearrange the information to its chronological order. I would go on and make this change for now, so bear with me if I also got the information even more confused. Vic₂₂₆ 19:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I've rearranged the two links you have provided above as well as the information they are referring to by chronological orders. Those confusions over Ma's use of government funds didn't happen this year but last year. Vic₂₂₆ 21:21, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Ma's own statement about how he said Special Fund is only for public/official use (before he changed position later to "Special Fund is salary") should be included, because this is one of the major reasons prosecutor decided to indicted. And it is also one of the reasons why his image was so damaged.

I think the scandal of 三中 should be included.--203.64.247.100 14:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

WP Bio Rating

I have rated the article as B class. The main thing that needs improved is the large number of 'red' links. GDon4t0 14:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

"So-Called" in lead section

I've never read about Ma Ying-jeou previously, and I was immediately struck with a bad impression from those two words detailing his "good looks". It has an inherent bias and leads the reader to believe that these "good looks" are a purely artificial construct of some unreliable source. I recommend changing it if there are others who concur. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blaiseball (talk • contribs) 23:42, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

First sentence of the paragraph

"Ma was born in the xxx hospital in Hong Kong, China"

At that time, Crown Colony of Hong Kong belongs to the United Kingdom, not China —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.218.32.212 (talk) 15:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

This whole paragraph has Citation Needed written ALL over it.

"During his tenure as Minister of Justice, Ma was seen as cracking down on "black gold politics", especially in his own party and the ROC government.[citation needed] (The result was, etc.) His high level of education [cn] and his perceived good looks have made him one of Taiwan's most popular (or wealthy, cn) politicians, and he retains a following from citizens, particularly among women [cn], those who identify themselves as Chinese nationals [cn] or otherwise support unification with China [cn], and business interests [cn].

Is there any way that WikiScanner can monitor this page as it's being edited? I'll be seriously angry if I find out that Wikipedia is being used as an international propaganda machine for Taiwanese citizens who could be motivated to return to Taiwan to vote. Eventually, this thread will be locked, as the political race on Taiwan heats up. Many props to all of the above contributors and comments on this informative "back channel communique." Haha peace out. --Torchpratt 12:19, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

A paragraph

Very slanted article

This article is extremely biased, likely due to the influence of prominent anti-KMT (Ma's party) bloggers such as Michael Turton (http://michaelturton.blogspot.com) and Taiwan Matters (http://taiwanmatters.blogspot.com).

Actually after reading Michael's blog, I think he has a very good grasp of the political situation in Taiwan. It is remarkable that a foreigner like him has such intimate knowledge of Taiwan.

Nearly every single positive aspect of this presidential candidate is qualified, while unsubstantiated rumors about him are included without suitable disclaimer.

I disagree. It may seem out of the world to you, but I'd say about 80% of what is deemed overly negative is the truth. The other 20% might just be tabloid material. When you read about Taiwan, you have to remember that until about 20 years ago Taiwan was under an authoritarian government that maintained an iron grip over the local media. It's tentacle like influences are still evident today. Ma is really just a well packaged front-man for that dead regime desperately trying to resurrect itself. Gather more primary source information before you make a judgment because the secondary sources are filtered through the KMT's blue lenses. In my judgment, this article is too nice to Ma and parrots the former KMT propaganda machine's view of him, so it is slanted indeed...just not in the direction that you think it is.

In the third paragraph:

During his tenure as Minister of Justice, Ma was seen as cracking down on "black gold politics", especially in his own party and the ROC government.[citation needed] His high level of education and his perceived good looks have made him one of Taiwan's most popular politicians, and he retains a following from citizens, particularly among women, those who identify themselves as Chinese nationals or otherwise support unification with China, and business interests.

In the personal background section an unsubstantiated claim of spying:

He has been accused of spying on other Taiwanese students on behalf of the then-authoritarian government in Taiwan while at NYU and Harvard, but Ma has denied these charges.

This is a serious allegation, and it lacks any evidence or citation. 163.17.7.193Brian, the article reports that Ma has been accused of being a student spy and says that Ma denies the charges. Is it true that members of the democracy movement say that Ma spied on them? Yes, that's been in print since at least 1989. Does Ma deny these charges? Also true. No one has accused anyone of anything. The article reports two facts, the fact of the accusations, and the fact of the denial. It is well known that students on KMT scholarships, like Ma, routinely reported on their fellow students for the party during the authoritarian period. Winston Dang(Chen), who now holds high position in the government here, has said that Ma was identified as a student spy by his advisor, Jerome Cohen. Ma himself has virtually admitted this by saying that because of the scholarship, he had to "give back."

Sadly, your man served the authoritarian state when he could have been working for freedom. Unfortunately for him, that lack of moral courage that has so colored Ma's long career as the scion of the security state cannot be omitted from an article such as this. It is crucial to an understanding of who Ma Ying-jeou is.

To add to Michael's comment, contrast Ma's actions and writings during the 1970's with let's say Annette Lu (who was also at Harvard at the time) and it will become abundantly clear who was working for freedom and who was not. Annette Lu was thrown in jail in Taiwan for participating in prod-democracy activities after only 1 or 2 years at Harvard. Ma on the other hand was writing essay arguing the necessity of martial law and the evils of Taiwanese independence. A quick Google search will turn up a lot of material.

As for Ma being "good looking" are you seriously suggesting that looks are not a matter of perception? Thanks for mentioning my blog, BTW 09:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)Michael Turton

Mayorship, 6th paragraph:

His initiatives in administering the city of Taipei include changing the transliterations of street names and the Taipei Rapid Transit System's line and station names into Hanyu Pinyin, the spelling compatible with mainland China, as opposed to the Taiwanese-developed Tongyong Pinyin.

Hanyu Pinyin is the internationally accepted standard for romanizing Mandarin. It isn't just "compatible with China". It's the UN standard and even an ISO standard. Also, representing Tongyong Pinyin as simply as "Taiwanese" is misleading. Very, very few Taiwanese are familiar with the system, it was changed multiple times during Ma's term, and it is entirely the tool of the opposing political party.

This entire article is ridiculous in its negative-bias. This is a presidential candidate, and the article was clearly written by people with an intense dislike for him. Wikipedia isn't supposed to be a tool for shaping political debate.

219.84.5.8 17:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)Brian

Scandals

Looks like there are more scandals for Ma...[2]. Can someone please update the article?--Jerrch 02:42, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Lead section

Please note that Ma still has one more trial to go, so to say he was found "not guilty" in the lead section is misleading as it implies he has gone through the whole process. If the third trial goes his way then it should read that he was acquitted. John Smith's (talk) 18:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

National Taiwan University alumni

Dear Moderator,

Would you mind adding the following line in Ma's article:

   Category:National Taiwan University alumni ?

Thank you in advance. :-)

Green Card Issue

Can someone add the green card controversy which has popped up? It is verified that Ma had a green card and that it is currently a big controversy in Taiwan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ShihRyanJ (talk • contribs) 01:16, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I added some info on it.--Jerrch 21:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed

Ma denied having one and publicly expressed that no members of his family had one.

The sentence doesn't match the article which was confused. Ma denied having a US passport.

Roadrunner (talk) 13:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah it does match the article. Here's an exact quote: Earlier yesterday, Ma had publicly denied having a green card, saying that "no members of his family possessed one."--Jerrch 20:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Is Ma Ying Jeou a Lawyer?

As far as I know, Mr. Ma is NOT a lawyer. He went to a law school in Taiwan, and he obtain other degrees by studying abroad. However, he has never passed any bar exams. He did not pass the Taiwanese Bar Exam, nor did he pass any other. Therefore, he's NOT a lawyer. Please make the appropriate correction. His profession is NOT a lawyer although he is a politician.216.165.244.135 (talk) 18:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

He is not a lawyer because he hasn't passed the bar exam.--Jerrch 01:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

One needs not be a practising lawyer to be a lawyer. --122.106.39.108 (talk) 09:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia whether or not you need to be practicing of have passed the bar exam to be called a lawyer depends on the country. Since President Ma has his degree from the United States, it makes sense to use the U.S. standards (Taiwanese standards would be better if they existed, but English is not the language of Taiwan). In the U.S., "the term generally refers to attorneys who may practice law." You can only practice law if you've passed the bar exam, so it would be inaccurate to describe President Ma as a lawyer. We could say he was "trained as a lawyer" or that he "has a Law degree" (presuming he has one).Readin (talk) 18:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

No, he went to Havard Law School for his Law Degree. Kuomingtang or some other party SUPPORTED him to go there. Prowikipedians (talk) 12:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

"Lawyer" is ambigious, though some jurisdictions have rules about calling yourself one. Better to just note his degrees, then add that he has not passed any bar exam. --Dawud —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.165.204.218 (talk) 00:56, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20121202234129/http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071228/wl_nm/taiwan_ma_dc_1 to http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071228/wl_nm/taiwan_ma_dc_1
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120419133157/http://news.chinatimes.com/2007Cti/2007Cti-Rtn/2007Cti-Rtn-Content/0,4526,110110+112008032201075,00.html to http://news.chinatimes.com/2007Cti/2007Cti-Rtn/2007Cti-Rtn-Content/0,4526,110110+112008032201075,00.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20111128073348/http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081025/wl_nm/us_taiwan_china to http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081025/wl_nm/us_taiwan_china
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081029071305/http://edition.cnn.com:80/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/10/26/taiwan.protests.ap/index.html? to http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/10/26/taiwan.protests.ap/index.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131204053130/http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081108/wl_nm/us_taiwan_police_1 to http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081108/wl_nm/us_taiwan_police_1
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20121202234126/http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080911/bs_afp/taiwaneconomy_080911071112 to http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080911/bs_afp/taiwaneconomy_080911071112
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140531003852/http://www.msnbc.msn.com:80/id/10511672/site/newsweek/ to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10511672/site/newsweek/

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Religion

His religion has been changed a couple times in the last 24 hrs. Does anyone actually have a fact on that? Alexwoods (talk) 16:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The source says that Ma only VISITED temples; but did not clearly say if he belonged to a specific religious group. From what I have seen, Ma might be secular. But then again, we can leave the religion part blank too =) Iamwisesun (talk) 20:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Which source? I haven't found anything by Googling. Alexwoods (talk) 15:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I added back "religion = baptized Roman Catholic whilst young in Taipei; not practising [3]" which was deleted earlier for no good reason. It is well-sourced and not controversial. – Kaihsu (talk) 21:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to comment it out. The source you cited stated in Chinese, "Some local parishioners state [that Ma was baptized as a child]," which hardly seems reliable. The article itself does not claim that Ma is/was Catholic. --Nlu (talk) 05:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Although Ma baptized as a Roman Catholic, he adopted liberal values after growth and remain a neutral position on religious issues in his political career. It is nearly impossible to verify these comments without directly contacting Ma’s staff. Marxistfounder (talk) 04:37, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Ma's military service.

Where did y'all find the information on Ma Ying-jeou's military service in the Taiwanese Marine Corps because I've looked everywhere & haven't had any luck?

Every male citizens in Taiwan need to have at least two years of military services during the Martial law in Taiwan.Marxistfounder (talk) 04:40, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm moving his military service from the infobox to the body text since it wasn't a significant or well-known part of his career, it was just the standard two years of compulsory service. Phlar (talk) 13:33, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Archiving

I would like to set up automatic archiving of this talk page. Any concerns or objections? Phlar (talk) 14:35, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

No objections, so I'll go ahead and start archiving anything older than 180 days. Phlar (talk) 13:05, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110614151330/http://www.nownews.com/2007/10/29/301-2179345.htm to http://www.nownews.com/2007/10/29/301-2179345.htm
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