Talk:Loudonville, New York

Untitled

I am unsure of the inclusion of the following:

Law and government Although Loudonville is officially a hamlet within the Town of Colonie, it is often said that Chris Kuthy needs a better way to spend his free time.

Who is Chris Kuthy and who makes this statement??

Mimistar 23:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Out of 800,000 or so people in the Albany-Schenectady-Troy MSA how does can it be claimed that most of the corporate executives, doctors, lawyers, etc live in Loudonville? I guess its possible they meant most of the people who live in Loudonville are "blah blah blah" but MOST of those professions listed are probably spread pretty equitably throughout the region and not concentrated in Loudonville as it is worded. The Loudonville ZIP code does not even have the highest income per capita in the area (according to the Albany Business Review Book of Lists). Alot in this article needs to be fact-checked and cited if true, removed if not.Camelbinky 18:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Vandals using this article for vanity purposes

I have been deleting and tracking this article (Loudonville,New York) for a while now, and have been noticing that vanity entries are being placed under the "famous native" section of the article.

The names of: Brittney Ensign, and Claire Littlefield come to mind as the names (or the friends of) the vandals of the Loudonville page.

I encourage wikipedians to delete vanity entries and report the IP addresses or the usernames of these users to the administration for a possible block from wikipedia, which they deserve.

Thanks

RRM MBA 22:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Newtonville?

I guess since several of the places in this article that are listed as being in Loudonville are actually in Newtonville we should change the name of the article altogether. Neither Siena College, the school offices, or the town hall are in Loudonville, regardless of what zip code they use for mail delivery. Zip code boundaries dont reflect any real boundaries and Newtonville does have its own zip code in which all those places are in. Newtonville however only does PO Boxes, and therefore Loudonville does the deliver for any place that needs "home" delivery. Generally Burton Ave (a side street off NY route 9 just north of Menand Road) is the southern boundary of Newtonville (northern boundary of Loudonville). Anything north of this is Newtonville until the split off of Old Loudon Road from NY route 9 where Latham begins. Also the Albany International Airport (which also uses a Loudonville ZIP Code), is not in Loudonville, it was built on top of the Shaker community and is still considered to be a part of the historic Shaker area (one would never say that the Heritage Park or Ann Lee's home was in Loudonville). Newtonville does need its own page considering what it has plus the unmentioned Pruyn House museum.Camelbinky 22:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and as a sort of "precedent" for NOT using ZIP Codes as deciding where a business or house is in, see the discussion on the Troy, New York page regarding whether or not to put Mapinfo as a Troy business even though it has a Troy ZIP Code but was actually in the town of North Greenbush. (They settled that it was outside the city limits and therefore regardless of ZIP it wasnt a Troy business) Obviously this is different since Troy has actual delineated boundaries and Loudonville and Newtonville must use rough estimates (often based on where DOT decides to put up hamlet signs). Camelbinky 22:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess since nothing has been done about or even just discussed regarding Loudonville versus Newtonville I will soon just take it upon myself to make a new page for Newtonville and remove from the Loudonville page information that actually pertains to Newtonville. The Pruyn House is always listed as being in Newtonville, there is a church less than a mile from Siena College that uses the Newtonville name, a plaza using the word newton, and the Newtonville Post Office is across the street from the college, it exists as a hamlet and has an identity of its own. Camelbinky (talk) 19:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Dispute

There seems to be some dispute reflected in a few back and forth edits between Hippo43 and myself. Hippo43, could you please discuss here what is your point of view. One point of my edits is to remove a Peterson's college guidebook reference that Hippo43 replaces, which has been discussed elsewhere (at Talk:Siena College) and discredited in terms of its accuracy in describing the location of Siena College. In particular that source suggests that Loudonville is a town, which is understood to be FALSE. Why on earth Hippo43 would edit war to return it here is beyond me. Hippo43, explain yourself. doncram (talk) 04:19, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Doncram, quit trolling and read my edit summary. If you have a source that says Loudonville is not a town, let's see it. --hippo43 (talk)

I am surprised now. This is really going backward. Loudonville is an area, perhaps a neighborhood or hamlet, within the legal entity of the town of Colonie, New York. New York State law does not allow for there to be towns incorporated that include area already included in another township. I am meaning town in the legal, common sense, of a legal township incorporated in the state. I have no idea where you are heading with this. I think you are not serious, and your suggestion of trolling, suggests to me that you are...trolling. doncram (talk) 05:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like synthesis to me - do you actually have a source that says Loudonville is not a town or have you just deduced it yourself? The source you tried to discredit does not say that Loudonville is a town in the specfic NY state law sense. It just says it's a town.

Your suggestion of trolling ... --hippo43 (talk) 07:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it is obvious that in the wikipedia in describing a place we want to use the specific legal terminology. Do you want to change the Loudonville article to say that this is a town rather than a neighborhood or hamlet, perhaps with a personal essay on what you mean when you say it is a town, because you want to go with some non-standard meaning?

Okay, here is evidence suggesting that you are now just being deliberately obtuse. From your own talk page, exact quote of your own words: "I edited it to read: 'The college is in the town of Colonie, and it has a Loudonville, NY ZIP code. The college's mailing address is ...' I felt this was a fair version....". Now you want to assert that it is in the town of Loudonville? doncram (talk) 07:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't want to say Loudonville is a town, I don't want to assert that Siena is in the town of Loudonville, and I don't believe I said that I did. My point is just that Loudonville is a town according to the widely-understood meaning of the word, so attempting to discredit a source on those grounds is fallacious. I don't agree with the premise that we should necessarily use the NY-legal meaning here, because to most people, the wider meaning is the standard meaning - very few English speakers around the world would understand the specific NY sense unless it was clarified. According to the NY legal definition, Loudonville nay not be a town, but to say "L is not a town" would sound very strange indeed. If someone working in a NY government office described Loudonville as a town, they might well be incorrect, but if someone from, say, Dallas, said that Loudonville was a town, they'd be absolutely correct. --hippo43 (talk) 07:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

No the people from Dallas wouldnt be correct! It is not politically a town, wikipedia has strict rules on being technically correct, not being the most widely understood meaning. Wadester has tried to explain this to you before about the town. You are now seriously going around to other CD topic articles and yes, TROLLING, you are doing disputed editing to cause conflict! I've seriously had enough of this. You are not trying to make any of these articles better, you are promoting your agenda of conflict and bringing a rise out of people. I work very hard to make these articles better and add history to these articles. You obviously dont live anywhere in NY, you dont understand the difference of our political structure. As an example, NY is the only state that calls its top appeal court the superior court instead of supreme court, county level state courts are called supreme courts; this is a direct opposite of the federal and most state court systems. No other state uses the terminology that NY does, so should NY articles be changed to the "common man" definition of supreme court and superior court? You are being ridiculous, it doesnt matter what someone from Dallas would call Loudonville, all that matters is what is correct. The town of Colonie website lists Loudonville as one of its hamlets. That is our source. NY state law is also a source, Loudonville is not a town, it is not incorporated. DO NOT REVERT IT AGAIN, TO CHANGE AGAIN WILL BE VANDALISM. I will go to every single admin I can find if I have to. I'm done with the ridiculousness.Camelbinky (talk) 17:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the above posters that it is not a town. I will, of course, revert edits contradicting consensus established on this page. 3RR shouldn't be an obstruction to accuracy and should not allow vandalism. Antivenin 17:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

@Hippo43: Camelbinky is exactly correct. Loudonville is a hamlet. For those that don't know what a hamlet is, that's why the word "hamlet" is piped. You are on the verge of vandalism. I would appreciate if you stopped making these nonconstructive edits against consensus. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 17:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Wadester, Camelbinky, Antivenin - Please calm down. I think you have misread the above discussion between myself and Doncram. Vandalism? I don't think I ever asserted that Loudonville is a town in the article, or that it is not a hamlet, and nor do I want to. If you read my contribution on this talk page, you will see that I am discussing the value of a source. It is ridiculous to try to exclude a source on the grounds that it says Loudonville is a small town. Moreover, that source, if someone did want to inlcude it, would serve as a source that some do view Loudonville as a small town. If I did inadvertently insert 'Loudonville is a town' or remove 'is a hamlet', can someone please point it out with a diff?

Camelbinky, could you point me towards the rules you are referring to? ("wikipedia has strict rules on being technically correct, not being the most widely understood meaning") I'd like to read them. --hippo43 (talk) 09:15, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Hippo43, I am replying to comments where you state: If you have a source that says Loudonville is not a town, let's see it. and do you actually have a source that says Loudonville is not a town or have you just deduced it yourself?. To me, the issue is not removing a source that states Loudonville is a town, rather it is not agreeing with sources that say it's not ( + with consensus on this page). As for your last question, see Argumentum ad populum. Common sense > everything else. Antivenin 10:36, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

The discussion between myself and Doncram followed a very lengthy discussion at Talk:Siena College. My statements related to the inclusion of a source, one of many stating that Siena is in Loudonville - accusations of vandalism thrown my way are ridiculous. To try to exclude a source for its use of one acceptable meaning of the word 'town' is fallacious, is based on the unproven assertion that L is not a town, and really demonstrates the weakness of arguing that 'Siena is not in Loudonville'. If you can actually show me the 'vandalism' that you suggested I'd be interested.

Also, I'm not clear on what you mean by "As for your last question, see Argumentum ad populum." My last question was about Camelbinky's reference to "strict rules on being technically correct, not being the most widely understood meaning". I'm not sure why you linked to a logical fallacy in response. Maybe I have misunderstood - could you clarify? --hippo43 (talk) 11:30, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I have not read the complete discussion (will get down to it later) so I cannot comment on that. Going against consensus amounts to vandalism. So attempting to change the article against consensus should (and, of course, will) be reverted. That's all I meant. And as for argumentum ad populum, 10 people might call Asia a country, but that wouldn't make it right. You see? The terms being used most always be correct. Meanings can't be ignored just because some people have differing views. (WP:SPADE to an extent) Antivenin 10:19, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

By my reading, WP:VANDALISM says no such thing about 'changing the article against consensus'. Your argument about 'Asia is a country' seems unrelated to the issue here. By no widely-used definiton of the word is Asia a 'country'. Loudonville, on the other hand, is a town, according to the widely understood meaning of the word - ten people may say 'Loudonville is not a town', but that wouldn't make it true. In any case, I'm glad you agree that people's beliefs do not make something true. That's why we rely on sources. --hippo43 (talk) 17:49, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Antivenin, Hippo43 doesn't like analogies. WP:No analogies about Asia --JBC3 (talk) 21:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

JBC3, Hippo43 likes relevant analogies, per WP:HIPPO43ISALWAYSRIGHT. --hippo43 (talk) 21:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Grrrr. Loudonville is not a town. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 18:18, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Town#United States and its subsection on New York seems quite clear on what a town is and is not. My two cents is that Loudonville is not a town, as this article states it is within the town of Colonie, I dont see how a town can be within another town, but someone with more knowledge on New York municipalities may be able to tell me otherwise.148.78.249.33 (talk) 01:14, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

This may help-

Historic Places Kevin Franklin, Town Historian Memorial Town Hall 534 Loudon Road Newtonville, NY 12128 (518) 782-2593 There are two incorporated villages in the Town; the Village of Colonie and the Village of Menands, as well as several unincorporated, heavily populated areas; Latham, Verdoy, Loudonville, Maplewood, Boght Corners, Maywood, Newtonville, West Albany, Schuyler Heights, Roessleville, Mansville, Lishakill and Stanford Heights.

The "Village of Menands" in another INCORPOARTED village that lies within the borders of the Town of Colonie.

"Newtonville," "Latham," and "Loudonville" are UNINCORPORATED hamlets within the Town of Colonie. (Therefore, they don't rise to the level as a City, Town, or Village).

That is copy and pasted straight (with exception of the email address as this had to be redacted for me to post this on wikipedia) from http://bearsystems.com/ColonieCenter/ColonieCenter.htm I assume as the town historian for Colonie this Kevin Franklin would be the most reliable source on what is or isnt in his town.148.78.249.33 (talk) 01:26, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Kinda related to the whole town/not a town thing is this question- is Loudonville a cenus designated place? I havent been able to find any information on it on a google search. Does anyone know where I can find this so I can add it, if it is?148.78.249.31 (talk) 01:59, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind, found the answer to my own question. Loudonville is not a CDP, at least it wasnt for the 2000 census. I think that bolsters the view that Loudonville cant be considered a town, even in the coloquial sense of the term because if it isnt built up enough to be a CDP I dont know if the "average man" would then see it as a "town".24.182.142.254 (talk) 20:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

99.2% of the population of the town of Colonie is in areas classified as urban. If you look at urbanized area maps, the area of Loudonville is completely engulfed by the Albany Urbanized Area. The fact that it is not a CDP does not necessarily mean anything. --Polaron | Talk 21:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is really a dispute here. As far as I can tell, noone is trying to insert 'L is a town' into the article. By the administrative definition within NY, Loudonville is not a town. In a descriptive sense, it is a town. Don't think we need more OR to try to nail it down. --hippo43 (talk) 21:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Not in the usual sense as the settlement patterns indicate it is indistinct from its surroundings. Neighborhood is probably a more appropriate label. --Polaron | Talk 21:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

For thos interested, Loudonville was a CDP in the 1990 census and so had defined boundaries. While a CDP and hamlet do not always correspond perfectly, it may be instructive to know how the CDP was defined. The northern and eastern boundary, which seems to be the most controversial, was defined for the 1990 Loudonville CDP as Maxwell Road, US 9, Spring Street Road, and Schuyler Road. --Polaron | Talk 21:48, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Source? ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 22:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

LOL, by the boundary definition Polaron just gave for the Loudonville CDP that would make Siena College outside of Loudonville which is the very argument that started all this. I'm not trying to bring that argument back up, it doesnt matter because we've put it behind us but I just find it hilarious. I think we should all drop this discussion since Hippo43 has stated that his intention never was to put L is a town in the article, it was a misunderstanding by some of his intentions on an edit. Since hamlet is the consensus and seems to be the preferred New York way of calling certain historical neighborhood centers that are inside towns it should stay that way as opposed to putting in neighborhood as that seems to confer more of a notion of a housing develepment in a NY town. I suggest a straw poll just to see where everyone stands. Agree if you believe hamlet is good enough. Disagree if you believe anything else. I also suggest that comments be kept to one or two sentences if any at all and replies are kept till after everyone has had a chance to vote that way we dont have a giant argument in the middle of a minor straw poll.24.182.142.254 (talk) 22:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

There's really no need to poll here. Hamlet has a legal standing in the NY and Loudonville is a hamlet. This is a boring discussion. It's hamlet. Just leave it as that. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 22:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

If Wadester16 was asking about the source of the boundaries, it's from shapefiles for the dataset for 1990 places (incorporated places and CDPs) in New York which I overlaid on a current road network dataset. I'll see if the Census Bureau site has 1990 maps and will get back later tonight. With regard to the comment by 24.182.142.254, I'm not proposing to use "neighborhood" as "hamlet" is a perfectly good name to use here since it has the benefit of being what locals use. I was just responding to Hippo43 that the generic word "town" is appropriate to describe Loudoonville and I was just saying that it was not. --Polaron | Talk 22:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Seems like it's a hamlet. Or a neighbourhood. Or whatever. --hippo43 (talk) 22:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

No, just a hamlet; you know, that legally colloquially designated collection of neighborhoods that New York State residents recognize? ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 00:02, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

OOOOH, I completely misunderstood you Polaron, I apologize that was my fault, I read it as the reverse that you were trying to use the CDP info as justification for Loudonville being a town and thought a quick lil poll would be a good way to avoid conflict, now that I re-read what you posted I understand. A quick google search just confirmed for me that Loudonville was a CDP in 1990, but I too would be interested in seeing the info you dug up on CDP boundaries for 1990 in Albany County, NY. Also if you happen to know what changed to make L not a CDP anymore that may be useful for the article as well (I believe I recall Latham was a CDP too but apparently is not as of 2000, same may have happened there).24.182.142.254 (talk) 22:23, 9 April 2009 (UTC) Ok, everyone. Now that its settled, lets all end this discussion and archive the page as this is one long discussion about nothing. No one is suggesting that the article be edited to say anything other than what it says now, and this entire section makes us all look petty and anal.24.182.142.254 (talk) 00:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. Looking at Wadester's last comment, if Loudonville is a legally-recognised entity, then we need a decent source which nails down exactly what sort of settlement it is. The source given is fairly poor quality and describes Loudonville first as a 'heavily populated area' then as a hamlet. Other sources online, of similar quality, use various other terms, as well as 'hamlet'. Does anyone know of a really strong source which defines Loudonville as a hamlet? --hippo43 (talk) 00:30, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh great. Well, since I am the person who put the "fairly poor quality" source in the first place, I will defend the source ONCE by saying- while you may very well be right in disagreeing with its reliability on THIS one piece of information on the status of Loudonville in that website the website itself IS a reliable source as it is an official tourist website for Bear Mountain and the Hudson Valley region of New York, you may have gotten confused as to its status due to the way in which I reached the website and therefore the url that I put in and to its heavily advertised page making it look like one of those various unreliable "your community is..." websites that are everywhere like hometownlocator, wunderground.com, epodunk.com, loopnet.com, and many more. If you want a more definitive source, check the official town of Colonie website as there is a page within it that describes Loudonville as one of its many hamlets, it is- http://www.colonie.org/historian/ . I also dont see the contradiction between "heavily populated area" and hamlet as hamlets in Albany County and specifically the town of Colonie tend to be heavily populated, Latham itself has more people than many whole towns or incorporated villages. This is directly copy/pasted from that official town historian page-

What are the Hamlets and Villages in the Town of Colonie?

There are two incorporated villages in the Town; the Village of Colonie and the Village of Menands, as well as several unincorporated, heavily populated areas; Latham, Verdoy, Loudonville, Maplewood, Boght Corners, Maywood, Newtonville, West Albany, Schuyler Heights, Roessleville, Mansville, Lishakill and Stanford Heights

Now can we close out this discussion before it gets out of hand again please?24.182.142.254 (talk) 00:53, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

For reference, here is a collection of pdf maps of 1990 census blocks of Albany County that show both roads and place boundaries. The first map is the overview map and the rest are section details. --Polaron | Talk 15:22, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The Colonie website certainly seems a better source, but it doesn't explicitly state that Loudonville is a hamlet, and there are a lot of other sources which use other words - neighbourhood, area, suburb etc. I didn't mean that 'heavily populated' and 'hamlet' were incompatible, just that these sources call Loudonville an 'unincorporated area'. If Wadester is right (and I'm sure he is) that Loudonville is a "legally designated collection of neighborhoods that New York State recognizes", then there must be a good source which confirms it. --hippo43 (talk) 16:18, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I personally dont see that we need a source that says what a hamlet is or anything to that effect. A hamlet and an unincorporated village are the same thing, there is no difference just preference of the person writting the law. As opposed to neighborhood which hamlets may be one neighborhood or many many many neighborhoods. Most cities and villages started out as hamlets, a large landowner may have divided his land up and set out roads and lots and sold the lots, and bam, a village without a government (Lansingburgh and Troy both started this way separately, now they are both part of the city of Troy), a group of people from an established city may have striked out on their own for economic reasons, bought some land from the Indians and built a hamlet, that's how Schenectady began. The third common way (at least in the Capital District) is that at an established crossroads on long distance routes between established cities/villages/hamlets; saloons, taverns, churches, post offices, hotels, shops, houses (often in that succession) would be built to serve what at that time would be long distance travel of a day or two between places like Troy and Schenectady and also to serve the local farms of the hinterland, such is how hamlets like Latham, Loudonville, Newtonville, Poestenkill, and East Greenbush came about. You can call them hamlets, unincorporated villages, or I personally think is more historically accurate- settlements; but its all the same. I'm not going to spend any more time trying to find reliable sources on the definition of hamlet, its not needed as far as I'm concerned if Hippo43 and Wadester16 think its important to discuss or research ok, but I would like to suggest calmness and commonsense and for everyone to really think where our priorities lay.24.182.142.254 (talk) 20:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure everyone is calm. My point is simple; where the article says 'Loudonville is a ...' - it should include a reference, whether the article states that Loudonville is a hamlet, a village, a suburb or a Toblerone. --hippo43 (talk) 21:39, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Says here (page 67) that a hamlet has no legal meaning. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have a social meaning. Hamlet≠village, as villages are typically incorporated. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 22:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

So a hamlet has no legal/administrative meaning? In that case how should we distinguish a hamlet from a suburb/neighbourhoud/community/settlement etc? Does anyone know of a very good source which defines what Loudonville is? --hippo43 (talk) 23:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

It doesnt need to be sourced. I suggest everyone just stop talking to Hippo43 about this. Consensus says its a hamlet and every freaking other hamlet article as well says a hamlet is a hamlet. Our sources are everyone who lives in NY, you simply know whether what you live in is hamlet or not, subdivisions are neighborhoods and modern. (what is with your spelling of Neighborhood anyways?!) Hamlets are old, a hamlet IS a settlement and a community, there is no distinction. The only distinction is between hamlet and neighborhood. Hamtlets are UNINCORPORATED VILLAGES, no difference with a normal village except they dont have a government. Wadester has stated, correctly, not everything needs a citation. Please dont start going around to every single hamlet article in Albany County or NY state and start causing trouble. The Colonie website I showed you is clear on listing hamlet/unincorporated village within its boundaries, other towns do similar things. Even local maps (such as Jimapco) put hamlet names larger and bolder than those of subdivisions. If locals are just allowed to take care of their own articles with no interference there wont be a problem.24.182.142.254 (talk) 00:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

If you don't want to speak to me, that's your choice. Other editors are generally able to decide for themselves. I'm not discussing any other articles here, I would just like to nail down what Loudonville is - I believe it's a hamlet..

Your argument is incoherent to me - are you really saying that it's a hamlet because you know it's a hamlet? According to WP:V, any content that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs to be sourced. If I'm challenging it, it needs a source. Given that various sources use a range of words to describe Loudonville, I'd like to find a really good one which describes it as a hamlet, if that is the case. I'm really not sure why this would be contentious. Could you maybe sign your comments so I know who I'm discussing with? --hippo43 (talk) 00:24, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is a hamlet because I and everyone else in this area says it is a hamlet. Your words- "I believe it's a hamlet" so you are not challenging it, therefore no reason to get a reference. No one is challenging it, no one is likely to. And I have signed every single one of my posts you arrogant rude obnoxious jerk. Because I wish to be an anonymous IP user and not sign up to get a cool nickname does not make my contributions any less than yours and does not mean I am not signing my name when I put four tildes just like you, I work on multiple computers and yes, most of them have wandering IP addresses, so why would I want one name so everyone knows me? I've been working on wikipedia for a lil while now and have seen no reason to sign up, I dont know what comes with "membership" but if you think there's something with it that I would find interesting then tell me maybe I'll join. I dont know what kind of responsibilities or catches are included with signing up.24.182.142.254 (talk) 01:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I am challenging it, and it does need a source. I do believe it's probably a hamlet, but I'm not convinced, because the sources are not consistent. Your view that "It is a hamlet because I and everyone else in this area says it is a hamlet" is not the most intelligent argument I've ever heard, and not consistent with WP:Verifiability - have you read this policy?

You might also benefit from reading WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:DICK. --hippo43 (talk) 11:53, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I apologize. I simply got upset because it seemed you were acting as though just because I'm relatively new and I have just an IP address that somehow my opinion isnt as good as yours or Wade or Polaron or the others in this discussion and that got under my skin because one of the first comments I made in this discussion was defending you about how I was sure you werent intending to mean that L is a town and that it was a misunderstanding by Wade and Camel et. al. and I felt like- wow, that's how I'm repaid?!, I'm sure that is not how you meant by your comment though.

Anyways- I added two citations that should at least be good enough until something better comes along, I think they would be fine as permanent citations on hamlets. Though this may shine some light on the legal status of hamlets in NY law- http://books.google.com/books?id=AcsSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA33&dq=definition+of+hamlets+in+new+york+state page 33 mentions hamlets (which it says are the same as unincorporated villages). It does not define hamlets but it does show that the term is the same as the term "unincorporated village" and at least shows an instance in which hamlets are recognized by the state as geographic entities. Perhaps Hippo43 and Wade can let me know if this helps or not, though my personal preference on the wording in this article is closer to Wade (though I disagree with his statement that village does not equal hamlet, I see there being two types of v. one incorporated and one not, ie-hamlet) I would like to be the impartial third party and simply find references that can clear up the dispute and hope this has helped.24.182.142.254 (talk) 01:20, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Newly added reference

I dont understand the reference posted for the statement that Loudonville has amongst the highest property values in the area. I also dont think it is a reliable source. But that is my opinion and I will not remove another person's sources without giving them time to defend them. If no one comes with a defence in 7 days I'll remove the reference and put the template back.Camelbinky (talk) 05:16, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Reputation section

I've removed this section, as it gives undue weight to just one 20-year old anecdote about PO boxes, which is described as a 'rumour' in the source. The employee quoted even said it wasn't common.

Camelbinky has attempted to read my mind on this elsewhere, but his speculation is nonsense. It may be worth having some material on Loudonville's reputation, but this stuff about PO boxes is just trivial. --hippo43 (talk) 22:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Im not going to "discuss" this with you. You do not know how to discuss anything per our prior disagreements. It is not a discussion you want, it is drama. Just leave it alone and stop judging other people's edits. This section in the article is not harmful, it is not against wikipedia policy, it is properly cited. You are being disruptful and have not attempted to benefit this article in anything you have done to it, whether it be about Siena College or when you attempted to call it a "town" when it is not a town, or when you wanted a source that actually called it a hamlet. You do not have the authority to go around judging other's contributions. Stick to your own contributions and ADD things to articles YOU ACTUALLY KNOW ABOUT. When can can discuss things by TALKING TO ME, and not to an invisible audience and playing up to them, then I may reconsider. Your above post shows you still have not learned how to discuss. "Camelbinky has attempted to read my mind..." blah blah blah, dont talk ABOUT ME, if you want to discuss something WITH me. Who are you even talking TOO? Playing to an audience is immature and a waste of time. If a third, fourth, or fifth person comes in, they can read the discussion BETWEEN you and I and catch up, THEN you should TALK TO THEM AS WELL. I will not sit here while you attempt to manipulate in advance opinions of people who can make up their own minds on their own. You are the only one who has undid my edit. Obviously no one else cares to. Leave it. I'm not going to discuss this further.Camelbinky (talk) 11:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Please address the issue of notability. Why is this minor anecdote being used to justify a whole section in the article? Can you maybe find a better source which describes Loudonville's reputation? I'm not the only person to remove this cruft, or the first - see [1]. The article has benefited from having this trivia removed. --hippo43 (talk) 20:31, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

An IP address, hmmm, sorry if I dont take at face value that it wasnt you. I have no more good faith towards you. How would you know if this article has been improved by its removal? You havent contributed anything beneficial to it. You dont contribute to any CD article, please stick to articles you know about. I am not going to talk to you about this. I dont have to justify any contribution to you. Leave articles alone that you have no knowledge about and leave them to those that care about the topic. I AM NOT DISCUSSING THIS WITH YOU FURTHER.Camelbinky (talk) 21:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Your refusal to address the question of notability does you no favours. I suggest you read WP:OWN. You don't own this article, or other CD articles, and your statements about what I do or don't know are ill-informed and arrogant. I suggest you put aside your feelings and discuss the issue itself. --hippo43 (talk) 22:53, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Now the page has been un-protected, I won't revert it right away. If there is no discussion of how we can create a better 'Reputation' section, or of the notability of this one anecdote, I'll remove it in a couple of days. --hippo43 (talk) 17:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Loudonville CDP (1990)

For those who were interested, here's a mpa of the 1990 Loudonville CDP.

Also, here it is zoomed in and centered on the location of Siena College, which according to the key appears just outside of the City of Loudonville. (These cities undoubtedly correspond with actual cities, villages, and CDPs.) --JBC3 (talk) 21:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

JBC3 if you are still interested in making that category on "Former CDP's in New York" we can use those maps as a basis of finding new ones. Obviously we've got Loudonville, but then based on that map we now know Latham as well, and Roessleville too. So we just need non-map sources that state they were CDP's in 1990, but not in 2000, though in my opinion we dont need one source for both, one source saying a place was a CDP in 1990 and then another source saying it isnt a CDP in 2000 should be enough. Then we can start finding more and get that category done. I just dont know what you want to do about CDP's that lose their status, and then get it back again, example- say Loudonville in the 2010 census is made a CDP again, do we then have to every 10 years go through and take away the former CDP category classification from articles, oh or we can then start a "Former former-CDP's in New York" category! That would be fun and amusing! If you want we can start a page off the New York wikiproject and start listing former CDP's and the sources for them until we get enough to start the category.Camelbinky (talk) 21:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The most amusing thing about this map, given all the discussion on the Newtonville/Loudonville thing, is that it actually puts the Newtonville Post Office and the "heart" of Newtonville (the roads to the southwest of the Maxwell/Loudon intersection) in Loudonville. So if one uses this map to opine that Siena is in Newtonville, then one must also accept that what most folks thing of as Newtonville is actually in Loudonville. The 1990 Latham definition is interesting too . . . Gnhn (talk) 20:49, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that too. That's why I didnt mention anything about using it to say Siena College isnt in Newtonville. It is also why I dont like when editors assume and edit in a way that makes hamlets and CDP's seem like they are the same thing. There are lots of CDP's that take up 2 or more hamlets, even in their name. I wish hamlet and CDP articles would be separate instead of hamlet articles being labelled as "also a CDP", and vice versa. Hadley-Luzerne is a CDP that is made up of two hamlets even in the title. I would like to point out the student (I think he said he was a student) that mentioned (a little too late) that he always thought Siena was in Newtonville, so the old argument "this is being debated only on wikipedia, not the real world" is a bit lost now. But no reason in bringing all this up. The map was informative and something good to share, we shouldnt debase its use by bringing up old arguments.Camelbinky (talk) 21:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Protected

Please bring the content dispute here. --John (talk) 15:21, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Discussion is above --hippo43 (talk) 20:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)