Talk:Livia/Archive 1

Archive 1

Suetonius the most reliable?

The discussion here seems to imply that Suetonius (who does not mention the idea of Livia as evil mastermind) is more reliable than Dio Cassius and Tacitus (who do.) What on earth is the basis for such a claim, or for the idea that Suetonius had access to "official sources?" john k 02:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Between ca 111 and 121 Suetonius held a number of palace appointments, especially the secretarial ones of a bibliothecis and ab epistulis. "He quotes extensively from the letters of Augustus, which he presumably studied while working in the palace" (Oxford Classical Dictionary [1970] 1021A.

3 May 06 81.190.70.164

Serious review required

This article has great factual discrepancies that need to be corrected. Livia was not the Grandmother of Claudius and Germanicus first of all. I will attempt to correct the discrepancies in the article shortly.

Nudas veritas 07:03, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Huh? Surely she was their grandmother??

- Yes indeed - mother of their father Nero Claudius Drusus! --Frippo 19:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Empress of Rome section, usage of exclamation

The "Empress of Rome" section has a strange use of an exclamation: "She had her own circle of clients and pushed many protégés into political offices, including Otho's grandfather and Galba himself! " Weird for an encyclopedic entry ... should it be removed? ElCapitanAmerica 16:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

You're right, that's bad; I fixed it. TAnthony 16:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

pop culture reference

shes portrayed as xena's daughter, livia aka eve, on Xena Warrior Princess -JediRogue 07:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Another inaccuracy?

"Her father committed suicide in the Battle of Philippi, along with Gaius Cassius Longinus and Marcus Junius Brutus, but her husband continued fighting against Octavian, now on behalf of Mark Antony and his brother." Against Octavian, on behalf of Mark Antony? The two were on the same side for years after the Battle, so how could he fight for one against the other? JW (talk) 06:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Political alliances in Rome of this period were somewhat . . . fluid. Antony and Octavian had previously been opposed from January 43 BCE when the Senate sent Octavian (with Consuls Hirtius and Pansa) to relieve Antony's siege of Decimus Junius Brutus Albinus in Mutina. In April, Octavian & Co defeated Antony (though Hirtius and Pansa were killed).

Antony fled to (Transalpine) Gaul, but in November he allied with Octavian and Lepidus as the Second Triumvirate to oppose Marcus Junius Brutus ("the" Brutus) and Gaius Cassius Longinus ("the" Cassius), whose army was marching on Rome. Following the Triumvirate's victory at the Battle of Philippi in October 42 BCE (where Livia's father fought for Brutus & Cassius and killed himself to avoid capture), Octavian and Lepidus returned to Rome while Antony remained abroad to govern the Eastern Provinces: In due course he installed himself in Alexandria with his lover Cleopatra.

Throughout this period (from 47 BCE in fact), Mark Antony's had been married to the wealthy and ambitious Fulvia: he was her third husband, her previous spouses having died violently. In 41 BCE, peeved by Octavian's divorce of her daughter (from her first marriage) Clodia Pulchra, Fulvia fomented a civil war along with Antony's younger brother Lucius Antonius in an attempt to make Antony sole ruler of Rome, apparently without Antony's knowledge, let alone assent: this placed Antony in embarrassing opposition to Octavian, whether he wanted to be or not.

Octavian defeated Fulvia and Lucius (for whom Livia's husband Tiberius Nero fought) in 40 BCE and Fulvia died of a convenient sudden illness shortly thereafter, enabling Antony and Octavian to reconcile in September 40 BCE and Antony to marry Octavian's sister Octavia the following month. However, Antony quarrelled with Octavian in 39 BCE over the latter's failure to supply promised troops for the former's Parthian campaign (they had been diverted to deal with Sextus Pompeius's rebellion in Sicily).

They reconciled again in 38 BCE, but therefter Antony looked to Egypt and Cleopatra for funding and family comforts, and in Rome Octavian began to belittle Antony (for abandoning his faithful Roman wife and going native with a foreign floozy) in order to consolidate and further his own ambitions, bolstered by Lepidus's forced resignation in 36 BCE. Political hostilities steadily mounted until in 32 BCE the Senate stripped Antony of his powers and declared war on Cleopatra, though a third of their number thereupon left Rome for Greece in order to side with him. The following year the Civil War began that would see Antony (and Cleopatra) dead and Octavian installed as sole ruler, soon to be renamed Caesar Augustus.

In summary, the assertion that "the two were on the same side for years after the Battle [of Philippi]" is itself less than entirely accurate. And you thought soap opera plots were modern? 87.81.230.195 (talk) 12:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Removal of dubious entry pending justification

I have removed from the Descendants section an unreferenced entry to 3 alleged further children of Claudius which had been appended to his 4 'canonical' ones, as follows -

V. Mayah Braunicus

VI. Mary Makicus

VII. Hillarius Melladius

- apparently by user 71.129.68.214 (talk) (though my interpretation of the page history may be at fault). This information looks to me to be spurious, though I am open to cited enlightenment to the contrary. In view of the general theme of that user's talk page, I have not troubled to leave a notification there. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 05:45, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Patrician status?

Not sure how to edit this too much but the article states Augustus' will made her a patrician when her rank was always a patrician via her Claudian and adopted Livian blood. A whole aspect of their marriage was that he was marrying into a very very elite family that was far more prestigious than the Julii! hva lavR duh??

[Created a new section for the above, which had been appended to the previous one. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 05:25, 15 December 2010 (UTC)]

I don't think you are correct that she was born patrician: the Patrician article mentions that the [few] families acknowledged as patrician "may have had plebian members or branches", and her father Marcus Livius Drusus Claudianus (born Appius Claudius Pulcher) is described in his article as only a nobleman, though "originating" from the patrician Claudians (whose article confirms some plebian offshoots), while her mother Aufidia was unequivocally a plebian. The gens Livia into which Marcus had been adopted were apparently also plebians despite being an ancient and distinguished Roman family: presumably they were not considered to have descended from one of the first 100 senators created by Romulus, which was the notional qualification according to Livy. The gens Julia, by contrast, "was one of the most ancient patrician families", while the gens Octavia was also patrician, though only recently elevated from plebian status. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 07:00, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Livia's name

Where do the names Olivia Druscilla and Caesarina Olivia come from? Anthony A. Barrett in his carefully researched historical biography "Livia" has a separate appendix on Livia's name p. 307-8, and at no point does he suggest she might ever had been referred to by either of these two names. In fact she belonged to the Livian family (her father was Marcus Livius Drusus Claudianus) and thus was called Livia, following the usual Roman system. This name has nothing whatever to do with the name Olivia - where does this come from? Maybe from a novel? As for Drusilla, that is written without C. Although I would normally feel hesitant to edit someone a text without more information, I feel I can safely and correctly remove these two names. Anna Lowenstein (talk) 15:38, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Livia's birthdate

Livia's birthdate is apparently only recorded in an extant piece of the acta of the fratres Arvales from A.D. 38, mentioning under the date a.d. III K. Feb. a sacrifice to Jupiter Optimus Maximus on the Capitoline on the birthday of Iulia Augusta (CIL VI, 2028 = Degrassi I.I. XIII.2, 1963, 405: natali Iuliae Augustae). However, a.d. III K. Feb. (third day before kalends of February) was the 28th day of January under the Republican calendar when Livia was born, since the 30 Jan. date didn't exist until added to the calendar in the Julian reform of 45 B.C. The Julian equivalence of Republican a.d. III K. Feb. varies according to birth year and the Republican intercalation model one prefers to follow. But if a.d. III K. Feb. was her birthdate, then what was the significance of Iulia Augusta's day, the description appended to 1 Phaophi in year 2 of Galba (= 28 Sept. A.D. 68) in a Greek inscription from Egypt (OGIS 669 = IGR I, 1263) ? Perhaps this was really her birthdate (a.d. IV K. Oct.), and the college of the Arvales, or their inscription, in error. Or perhaps 28 Sept. was the day of her deification by the grandson Claudius. Appietas (talk) 13:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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Livia in literature and popular culture

Livia in modern literature

"The television series, The Sopranos, originally dealt with the relationship between the scheming mother, named Livia, and her crime boss son, Tony Soprano. David Chase, the creator of the show, has said that he could not produce the series while his own mother was alive."

This has nothing to do with Livia Drusilla and needs to be deleted

PCB 23 March 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.255.162.164 (talk) 23:22, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Done. Thanks. Chewings72 (talk) 04:18, 24 March 2016 (UTC)