Talk:Liverpool/Archive 5

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Archive 5

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2019

Sports

Rugby League

Rugby league is a developing sport in Liverpool, with many community partners assisting the sport's governing body (RFL) to offer opportunities to participate. These include well established professional clubs in the neighbouring towns of St. Helens and Widnes. The city has a thriving student rugby league scene; Liverpool University took part in the first university game in 1968 and the other universities have been regular participants in the BUSA competition.

Today there are a number of non-professional clubs in the city, including Liverpool Buccaneers, who in 2006 won the regional final of the Rugby League Conference and in 2008 were elevated to the Rugby League Conference National division. Two junior clubs, Liverpool Lions (based in Croxteth) and Liverpool Storm (based in Childwall), have been established in 2008. They will be competing in the NWC Junior leagues in 2009. Rugby league has more recently returned to Huyton-with-Roby in the form of the Huyton Bulldogs A.R.L.F.C. Huyton Bulldogs currently compete in the RL Merit League, and their home ground is at the Jubilee Playing Fields, Twig Lane, Huyton.

A number of secondary schools throughout Merseyside are now participating in the inaugural merit league and 2008 is the first year that Merseyside schools have qualified for the RFL's Champion Schools tournament. Primary schools have been competing in tag festivals for a few years and the annual Tag World Cup is one of the major events in the Liverpool schools' competition calendar.

source- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Stanley (rugby league in liverpool) 172.193.50.222 (talk) 08:16, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Wikipedia itself cannot be used as a source for other articles. External published sources must be provided to support your request. See WP:CIRCULAR for further information. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:06, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Liverpool vs "Liverpool Authority" area

I have previously explained via edit summaries why the changes made are incorrect. Below is the comment I left at Correctus2kX page for clarity. He has not responded to the talk page requests, nor has he provided sources nor explanation of why he is correct in his interpretation. In addition he has claimed other cities also differentiate between their city area and their "council area" (whatever that means) but per the below, I checked over three dozen other city articles and could find not a single UK city that did so, and only in the limited cases of smaller Met Boroughs named for smaller areas could I find anywhere close. However in those cases, the smaller component parts each had their own articles, as did the named "borough".

Copying for benefit of Correctus2kX from his talk page:

Okay, I am going to assume you have completely misread or misunderstand legal and government entities. Firstly, Birmingham does not reference the Met Borough because the Met Borough is the city. It does mention the metropolitan area in the lede however, which consists of Birmingham and its surrounding cities and towns (the equivalent of the Liverpool/Birkenhead Metropolitan area which is mentioned in Liverpool's lede).

Secondly, if you look at the Manchester article for instance, it is treated as one and the same because of the self same reasons as I have given for Liverpool (Greater Manchester being a distinct entity to the Met Borough of Manchester which is the City of Manchester). In fact I don't think you will find a single Metropolitan borough which is both a city and unitary authority that differentiates between the city proper and the met borough because in law they are the same thing since 1972 (or in subsequent law).

In contrast, Metropolitan Borough of St Helens and Metropolitan Borough of Knowsley are distinct as they are made up of multiple distinct towns of villages falling under a new single authority. There is no single city authority in law, so they are named for something or after something. Koncorde (talk) 19:13, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

This is here to prompt discussion. Koncorde (talk) 22:25, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Per most recent revert "I have not provided any information" I point to the above and ask the user, what do you want? ONS? Already linked and used for all regional, area and population statistics? What definition are you using of Liverpool? Koncorde (talk) 23:19, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

I support Koncorde's wording - it is clear, while Correctus2kX's wording is confusing. Hopefully we can all agree that the city, metropolitan borough, council and local authority are all synonymous with each other. In discussing the population of Liverpool, it makes sense to go from the smallest (the borough), to the next largest (the urban area), and then to that of the metropolitan area or city region. The wording by Correctus, in contrast, goes from that of the city/borough to that of the metropolitan area, with a final sentence concerning the urban area. That approach is confusing. I will revert the text to Koncorde's wording. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:48, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

I am happy to accept changes in ordering, or even if there is some new definition or alternate definition of Liverpool "city" be that the centre, or including the current suburban zones, or even some historic expanse, but everything must be sourced to reliable sources and historic population references (such as including "Bootle" and / or the areas in the immediate proximity to the north and south) needs exceptional referencing and likely to be placed in the historic, or even the demographics / geography sections where it can be dealt with in detail. Koncorde (talk) 15:18, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

This whole problem may be an issue of British usage. In the UK, the term "city" relates specifically to the local authority area and boundaries. It does not refer to the wider urban area, which includes suburbs in different local authorities such as Bootle. See the article on City status in the United Kingdom. I've linked the word "city" to that article, for clarity. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:50, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Regarding Bootle, like Crosby / Formby have never been part of Liverpool (similarly Huyton /Roby) usually falling under other distinct parishes, districts or Boroughs (unless I have missed one in my research over the years, I think Bootle was a manor then Township, then Civil Parish, then wrapped up in a district before finally ending up in Sections boundaries). So if there is some other concept of Liverpool covering those areas - it's niche, probably one of those soft references about it being 'swallowed up'. Koncorde (talk) 01:19, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

this wording is more confusing and needs rewording to reflect that that is the population of the Liverpool city council area only. Readers are not being informed of this with the current wording.Correctus2kX (talk) 16:52, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Can you explain the difference? Do you have any sources that indicate the thing you say? What is the difference between Liverpool, the City of Liverpool and the Metropolitan Borough by your definitions because I can't find anything like them? Koncorde (talk) 17:04, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Recent changes to lead

Dyaluk08 has attempted on two occasions to make poor quality edits to the lead. Firstly, the lead is a summary of the main article - new material should be included there, with or without citations. Secondly, there is no source for giving Germany primacy as a source of immigrants, or indeed to separate out Norway and Sweden. Thirdly, it is incorrect to pipe Ireland to the Republic, as historically immigrants to Liverpool came from all parts of the island of Ireland. Fourthly, the claim that "many Liverpudlians [consider] themselves more Irish than English" is very poorly sourced. Fifthly, the reference to T. P. O'Connor gives it undue weight for the lead. Sixthly, the reference to the city's anti-Conservative feelings (while very possibly true) is very poorly written, and unsourced. Finally, all the references use bare URLs, which is very bad practice. The paragraph should be reverted to its pre-existing state. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:40, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Would agree with the above. Sourcing in particular was problematic. I would have no objection to a sentence referring to the influence of Irish, and also of Catholicism, as they probably are significant enough historically to the formation of the city culturally. However the claim that Liverpudlians don't see themselves as English is going to take some extraordinary sourcing. Koncorde (talk) 14:24, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

The basic problem comes when well-intentioned but relatively inexperienced editors attempt to add interesting material to the lead section of an article, without first addressing the much bigger problems in the main text of the article. Both this article and the History of Liverpool article are really quite poor in giving an overview of the key points in the historical development of the city. It's a big job, and it isn't best addressed by adding in ad hoc snippets of information. I have several large books on the history of Liverpool, covering such matters as the immigration to the city from Ireland, Wales and elsewhere - and everything else. Whether I will ever find the time or inclination to add it into this or related articles, I'm not sure. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:41, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Lots to do. Lot of history to summarise from a lot of perspectives. There may be some of the work already done if there as Irish diaspora article somewhere perhaps? Koncorde (talk) 14:50, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2020

skatepark 82.20.70.194 (talk) 09:08, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Not done: the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". -- Dr Greg  talk  09:30, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2020

Rohan Westbury (talk) 09:21, 19 May 2020 (UTC) The history of Liverpool can be traced back to 1190 when the place was known as 'Liuerpul', possibly meaning a pool or creek with muddy water, though other origins of the name have been suggested.

 Not done. This is already mentioned under "Origins of the name", and there is no evidence that there was a settlement there before 1207. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:45, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2020

The population of Liverpool in 2020 is 901708 not 498,042 as that is what it was in 2011 82.10.198.57 (talk) 10:45, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done A source would be required for that. But separately, just logically, can you imagine a city nearly doubling in population size in a decade? So something is wrong, or at least very questionable. So, what you are probably looking at is the population figure of the Liverpool Urban Area, which is not Liverpool. Koncorde (talk) 14:50, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2020

Liverpool has a population of 901,623 82.10.198.57 (talk) 16:00, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Already dealt with above. You are not referring to Liverpool but the urban area. Koncorde (talk) 16:02, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2020

Is the following citation sufficient to change the text ...Battles for control of the town were waged during the English Civil War, including an eighteen-day siege in 1644.[citation needed]... to .....Battles for control of the town were waged during the English Civil War, including a four day siege in 1644. I have found a reference to four days siege in the following citation on page 71. It reads The siege began on 7 June and lasted over four days. Gratton, Malcolm (2007). "Liverpool under parliament: the anatomy of a civil war garrison, May 1643 to June 1644" (PDF). Transactions of the Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire. 156 (2007): 51–74. doi:10.3828/transactions.156.4. Retrieved 2020-06-29.}. CaseyJones121974 (talk) 17:16, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. I did some surface-level digging and it seems like sources don't all agree, which is why I think this change should first be discussed:

• The ref at History of Liverpool says sixteen, though I personally have strong doubts about the reliability as a source of a cartoon history site for kids.
• John Corry writes twenty-four starting on June 2nd: The History of Liverpool: From the Earliest Authenticated Period Down to the Present Times, p. 58, at Google Books.
• Henry Smithers also writes twenty-four: Liverpool, Its Commerce, Statistics, and Institutions: With a History of the Cotton Trade, p. 28, at Google Books.
• E. M. Platt writes four or five starting on the 7th: Platt, E. M. (March 4, 1909). "Liverpool during the Civil War" (PDF). Transactions of the Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire. 61 (1909): 188. Retrieved June 29, 2020.
• Richard Brooke writes about twenty-four: Liverpool as it was During the Last Quarter of the Eighteenth Century. 1775 to 1800, p. 126, at Google Books.

Not sure what the typical procedure is for conflicting sources, but discussion can't hurt. Rummskartoffel (talk) 20:41, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

City nicknames

So I have never thought to really look at the list of nicknames, assuming they were obscure or irreverent because I have never heard of most of them, or only heard versions of them informally, but @Dyaluk08: did a fix tonight about some quotations and I notice the Jung quote which jarred as I remembered reading the full quote decades ago, and realised that's what we were sourcing the nickname claim to. Anyway, the Nickname tag at the top is meant to be used for names that are synonymous with the city (such as "The Big Apple" for New York), but all I can see or find are temporarily assigned titles (such as for promotional work for the City of Culture which have since been abandoned) or passing recognition from Guinness Book of Records (which I have added for the moment as at least it is sourced, and people might have a clue which city is being referred to it). Worryingly, some such as the "Pool of Life" have now been co-opted by a hotel chain who have had the great idea of adding a "copyright" to the titles of a variety of nicknames for cities all over the UK. Not sure how they hope to enforce that or whether it is only associated with the artwork. Anyway, if anyone can find some authoritative source for nicknames being used (and I know there were definitely some in the 1800's when Liverpool docks were considered a modern wonder of the world), let me know as otherwise it just seems like unsourced cruft. Koncorde (talk) 18:27, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:42, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Headers are broken

Can someone fix the headers? They're all messed up Sikiwucks (talk) 07:01, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done --David Biddulph (talk) 07:11, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2021

Change "it" to "its" in "...led to it becoming a tourist destination." The gerund "becoming" requires a possessive pronoun to precede it in this case. Joshuawf01 (talk) 01:43, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: "[has] led to it becoming a tourist destination" sounds like perfectly acceptable English to my non-grammatician ears. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:19, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Liverpool

Liverpool is going to make crazy in the fa cup it's a going to be a good year for them and spurs should really start practicing. 41.114.139.182 (talk) 07:37, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

This article is about the city. There is a separate article about Liverpool F.C., but it should not contain predictions unless they are relevant and cite a reliable source. Certes (talk) 11:33, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Liverpool Population, again

@Atrahasis01, Correctus2kX, Chrism, Ghmyrtle, LicenceToCrenellate, Dr Greg, and EdJohnston: I have pinged recent contributers to the talk page, or that have bee directly involved in the edit / reversion process. Further to recent changes to the lede. To cover all bases.

1. Liverpool is both a City and a Metropolitan Borough. There is no delineation between the two. There is no official metric of a Liverpool that is not both the City and the Borough as a minimum. In case this is unclear - Liverpool was a Borough (with a council) before it was a City. When City status was conferred, it was conferred on Liverpool as a Borough (with a council).
2. There is no population difference between Liverpool Metropolitan Borough and the City. There is no functional difference between the Local Authority (as was previously attempted to be changed) and the Borough, as the Local Authority is the representative and administrative entity for the Borough and City. We have asked previously for any sources to back up any of these changes and none have been provided. In contrast the sources currently provided are the two main principle authorities on the matter The ONS[1] and NOMIS (using the ONS dataset).

Prior discussion was here in the archive.

• To quote Ghmyrtle at that time: "Hopefully we can all agree that the city, metropolitan borough, council and local authority are all synonymous with each other".
• To quote Correctus: "this wording is more confusing and needs rewording to reflect that that is the population of the Liverpool city council area only. Readers are not being informed of this with the current wording".

These positions are mutually exclusive, and as yet there has been no explanation of why there is a difference, nor have any sources been provided to counter the position of the ONS (even colloquially). Koncorde (talk) 09:45, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I wonder if the text of the citation can be improved. It states "The mid-2019 est. population for the whole of Liverpool was 498,042....", which could be ambiguous as "the whole of Liverpool" could refer to a wider area. It might be better to say "the Metropolitan Borough...". The term "city" also has a specific meaning in the UK - as well as a more general meaning - which may be at variance with that used elsewhere, and we should be cautious about using the word. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:15, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, no idea why anyone would say "whole of Liverpool" unless they think something within Liverpool isn't actually, and City is pretty common parlance. It is used in 90% of the 60 or so cities I checked last time such as Manchester. The lede sentence is pretty much a carbon copy, as was, of those I checked to try and be neutral. Koncorde (talk) 11:53, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Agreed with Ghmyrtle, the current wording of the opening paragraph is clear without misleading people about the figure which the 498,042 refers to. It can't be ambiguous. Correctus2kX (talk) 17:17, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@Correctus2kX:That is not what Ghmyrtle said... Ghmyrtle is referring to the citation being ambiguous for using the term "whole of Liverpool" suggesting that there is a difference between the "whole" and the "not whole" He is not referring to the body text. Still no evidence as to what you are referring to here by suggesting there is a difference between Borough and City. Koncorde (talk) 17:33, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I think he/she can speak for themselves. There is no implication of difference in making it clear which population definition is referred to by the 498,042 figure. Correctus2kX (talk) 17:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Umm. They did when they said "I wonder if the text of the citation can be improved", and yes, the inference is clear that there is some difference, otherwise why would you try to insert it, particularly after failing to use "local authority" previously. You evidently believe this is somehow an improvement, but the prior discussion ended with you not responding at all when asked to clarify what you meant. If you are intending there not to be a difference between the two - then the clarification is not required. If you are intending there to be a difference, please provide a citation to that effect. Koncorde (talk) 18:05, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I didn't comment on the opening sentence, only on the footnote. The clearest way of opening the article would be to say: "Liverpool is a city and metropolitan borough in Merseyside, England. Its population in 2019 was...." The city and borough are synonymous with each other. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:32, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Ghmyrtle and how they have suggested it be worded. If there is no evidence there is a difference between the city and borough stats then it serves no purpose using 'borough'. "Its population in 2019 was...." is right. LicenceToCrenellate (talk) 20:41, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Population: Whilst I understand there is no distinction between metropolitan district and city as we are talking about the same thing, I believe the article can factually state that Liverpool is the 6th largest English city based on the same 'list of English districts' article, because you just exclude the entries that are not both a metropolitan district and a city. It's also worth noting that the Manchester article does not use the same population reference and has preferred to reference the urban area (i.e. Greater Manchester population, not just Manchester). Consistency of approach should be the goal. SO937 (talk) 13:33, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Economic impact

Hello @LicenceToCrenellate: As the source reflects this is relevant to human travel with an animal, animal importation for sale to a human in the UK, the employment of those handling animals, and livestock in the country. Invasive Spices (talk) 17 July 2022 (UTC)

But what does that have to do with Liverpool (i.e. what is the relevant content) and what significance does this actually have to warrant inclusion at this particular article versus every other article? It seems to be something that would have to be extraordinarily significant. Way more than Table 1 would warrant, which seems to be associated specifically with Quarantine Kennels which are (for obvious reasons) associated with Ports of entry so a coincidence of location rather than some particular source of an outbreak (i.e. you would expect a Quarantine Kennel to be the place to find infectious diseases and parasites before being released into general population). Koncorde (talk) 20:27, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

That is inadequate yes. I will find more support in a few hours. Invasive Spices (talk) 19 July 2022 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 30 July 2022

Hi the page needs an edit on the community shield as Liverpool have now won it again in 2022/23 season Kieran2200022 (talk) 18:12, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:36, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 August 2022

population 498.042 (est2019) to 486,100 (2021 census)

Sim2500 (talk) 23:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. I'm pretty sure there's an alternative to using xlsx files Aaron Liu (talk) 20:54, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2022

Please correct the date of birth for Jean Alexander 194.207.67.188 (talk) 11:23, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

 Declined - First of all your request appears to be misplaced as there is no mention of "Jean Alexander" within the article. Secondly, you have not stated what the DOB is. We at Wikipedia are not mind readers, y'know. And last but not least, you need to provide a Reliable Source for your change, otherwise it will just be declined again. MadGuy7023 (talk) 11:32, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 October 2022

You have not stated that Andrew Jameson is a notable swimmer. He is from Liverpool and went to school in Liverpool (in my class) before he was whisked away while still of school age to train to be the Olympic swimmer he was and win a gold medal in the commonwealth games. 2A02:C7E:C93:D900:A8EC:4CB5:729B:675A (talk) 20:04, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 22:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2022

The Population is now 500,500 it was in the Liverpool echo today, Confirmed population of Liverpool in 2022 78.145.42.49 (talk) 00:50, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:42, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2023

Please change official_name from Liverpool to Liverpool, United Kingdom Lace.her (talk) 01:57, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Simple answer - no. Longer answer - see WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I don't think anyone would argue that the city of Liverpool in the United Kingdom is the primary topic should anyone mention "Liverpool" without any sort of qualification. Everything else Liverpool related, derived its name from the city so it is right that Liverpool points to this article and everything else can be see at Liverpool (disambiguation). You are of course welcome to challenge this by requesting a page move - see WP:MOVE and read the instructions on how to do this. --10mmsocket (talk) 06:36, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Jones

Your list of surnames and their origins is incorrect. The surname Jones originated in England - it begins with a letter not even contained in the Welsh alphabet! Such articles as this are liable to be infiltrated by various nationalists who are eager to drive an artificially divided picture of the United Kingdom. Roberts is also not a surname of Welsh origin.

(81.129.126.104 (talk) 01:08, 11 May 2023 (UTC))

Thanks for the post. I have no opinion on what you say, but as it happens, the geographic origins were not referenced - the newspaper articles only listed the names, not their origins - and so I have removed them as original research. 10mmsocket (talk) 06:35, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2023

• The Pain Relief Foundation: 3 March 2010.

Please add website link to the Pain Relief Foundation https://painrelieffoundation.org.uk/ 85.255.237.220 (talk) 09:40, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

 Already done Lightoil (talk) 12:37, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2023

In the section headed 'Religion' the top photograph of Liverpool Anglican Cathedral has a caption with the word 'Cathedrals'. "Please change Cathedral's to Cathedrals" since it's not possessive. 82.71.17.250 (talk) 17:37, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 17:38, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2023

• The Pain Relief Foundation: 3 March 2010.

Please add website link to the Pain Relief Foundation https://painrelieffoundation.org.uk/ 85.255.237.220 (talk) 09:40, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

 Already done Lightoil (talk) 12:37, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2023

In the section headed 'Religion' the top photograph of Liverpool Anglican Cathedral has a caption with the word 'Cathedrals'. "Please change Cathedral's to Cathedrals" since it's not possessive. 82.71.17.250 (talk) 17:37, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 17:38, 28 August 2023 (UTC)