Talk:List of shopping centres in the Republic of Ireland

Not a list

Wikipedia is not a list, only those centres that are notable should be listed. Murry1975 (talk) 20:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Listing criteria

Guliolopez, Spleodrach, and anyone else with a view - should we make a formal statement of criteria for this list? Such lists *do not* always have to include only items with articles, and per WP:CSC, I think this one is a good case for including some non-article cases, as the best way of dealing with them (rather than someone potentially creating articles of dubious worth). I would reference, for example:

Lists of companies and organizations A company or organization may be included in a list of companies or organizations whether or not it meets the Wikipedia notability requirement, unless a given list specifically requires this. If the company or organization does not have an existing article in Wikipedia, a citation to an independent, reliable source should be provided to establish its membership in the list's group.

while respecting: As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a directory, repository of links, or means of promotion, and should not contain indiscriminate lists, only certain types of lists should be exhaustive. Criteria for inclusion should factor in encyclopedic and topical relevance, not just verifiable existence.
but also: While notability is often a criterion for inclusion in overview lists of a broad subject, it may be too stringent for narrower lists; one of the functions of many lists on Wikipedia is providing an avenue for the retention of encyclopedic information that does not warrant separate articles, so common sense is required in establishing criteria for a list.
and: Avoid red-linking list entries that are not likely to have their own article soon or ever.

So, for example, some of those Limerick centres are substantial, but not notable enough to need an article - but they are enduring items, and may be best handled with an unlinked mention in this list?

At any rate, I think it would be better to state criteria, rather than leaving it open. SeoR (talk) 22:43, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi. My thoughts, as reflected by Murry1975 above and by other contributors in their EDSUMMs to this list-article over the years (including my own), are that the criteria is/should be "Irish shopping centres that are notable enough for their own article". IE: WP:CSC. And, if that needs to be stated in lead then we should/can easily do that.

The alternatives are:

• a superset of all Irish shopping centres. Which, per WP:NOTDIRECTORY would be contrary to any number of guidelines. And reason.
• a subset of Irish shopping centres that external/independent reliable sources have grouped and discussed together. Which would align with WP:LISTN. But which I've never seen and would not know what/where such a thing would be.
• a "Wikipedia only criteria/subset" of Irish shopping centres. Based on our own invented/Wikipedia-only criteria like "Irish shopping centres with >X shops" or "Irish shopping centres with >Y sq metres of floorspace" or similar. Which would be in the WP:OR bracket. (And result in complex discussions about whether satellite retail parks should be included in either calculation.)

Looking at other similar lists (and the deletion and other project discussions at Wikipedia:WikiProject Shopping Centers), it seems to me that WP:CSC ("notable shopping centres") is the most common/successful criteria used by other similar lists (like List of shopping centres in Australia or List of shopping malls in the United States or List of shopping malls in Canada). Where that approach is not taken, the results seem to range from lists so long as to be useless (like List of shopping centres in the United Kingdom), so incomplete as to be pointless (like List of shopping malls in Austria), or so LINKFARMish as to be SPAM (like List of shopping malls in Latvia).

In short: CSC gets my !vote... Guliolopez (talk) 00:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! I was quoting from CSC, which provides for different models, but you state clearly the model you prefer - just article-worthy centres. I see your points, and must visit the lists you mention! I would myself opt for (in line with WP:NNC (...notability guidelines do not apply to contents of articles or lists (with the exception of lists that restrict inclusion to notable items or people)) - a tabulation of all centres beyond local shopping plazas, with something like Name / Location / Date built / Area (sq m) / Owner, etc. My view would be that no more than 6-7 centres in the whole country are notable (Stillorgan as first, Coolock as first enclosed, Blanch as largest, The Sq(uare) and perhaps Liffey Valley, with its controversy, and 1-2 others), but that the rest would be best stored in a tabular list - and then no need to consider further individual articles. Whereas now there are a range of marginal cases (which various people try to keep under control, especially the Tenant Cruft). I think the best way to approach this might indeed be to locate an exteral list (I'm sure one has been done in trade journals). Let's see if anyone else happens by, maybe Smirkybec would have a perspective, for example? SeoR (talk) 20:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

And having visited, I see your points - Austria is a joke, as if there were no centres beyond Vienna, and the UK one is exhausting and yet uninformative - but I think the Latvian model is a good one (perhaps without the external links and instead with a field for a citation per line). SeoR (talk) 20:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

And now other good examples also seen. But I'm still unsure about "notable only" as Shopping Centres is, for Ireland, not so broad a category - and there will be arguments forever about boundaries. For example, many will argue that the core list should also contain the Stephen's Green Centre - but then there's the big-and-older ILAC, the first city centre case (now a sad ghost on Talbot St), the Jervis with its history - and of course Dundrum. And Cork, Athlone, Limerick and so on when it comes to out-of-Dublin... SeoR (talk) 21:05, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

That all sounds quite solid to me. As for the other outlier, less notable, centres dotted around the country in the bigger towns, I'd imagine most get name checked in their town articles already (or perhaps should) - potentially for some of their negative elements (impact on the traditional high street). I'm thinking the likes of Fairgreen in Carlow, Market Cross in Kilkenny, and maybe the Parkway in Limerick? Smirkybec (talk) 21:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

P.S. and you know if you leave me to it, I *will* make this a table. God a love a list so much more when it's a sortable table. Form AND function :D Smirkybec (talk) 21:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC)