Talk:List of massacres in the United States/Archive 1

Archive 1

Missing Info?

Would it be appropriate to mention Gabriele Giffords in the 2011 Tucson Shooting's Notes section? She is why I remember that shooting, but was not easy to find, since I did not recollect if it happened this or last year. I think the Notes section is suitable to this kind of information. 85.217.37.146 (talk) 12:28, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

It would except that the shooting was a single perpetrator event, so is on that list instead. Ellin Beltz (talk) 20:07, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

List seems to be missing infamous Kent State Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.66.105.26 (talk) 21:27, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I was redirected from the heading, List of Massacres in New York, from an article on the Schenectady Massacre, which took place in NY & was by no means the only one, yet there are no massacres including that one, on this list. I thought it was an incorrect link and typed it into the search bar then noticed the redirected notice under the heading. Was a page of New York state massacres deleted? Much of the early Indian Wars with England and France took place there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.79.62.218 (talk) 11:42, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

The Indian Massacre of 1622 in Virginia? The New York City Draft Riots of 1863? The Watts Riots of 1965? The Chicago Race Riot of 1919? The San Bernardino massacre of 2015? The Orlando Nightclub shooting of 2016? This list is far from complete. Doug Dryden (talk) 23:41, 6 August 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Dryden (talk • contribs) 23:35, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Doug Dryden - Feel free to be bold and make those revisions if you feel they fit. Ckruschke (talk) 19:15, 11 August 2017 (UTC)Ckruschke

1993 Waco massacre is missing from list — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:1C0D:B6:9463:C4DC:66E8:8E1D (talk) 07:23, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Racial massacres need to be added to the list. Including, but not limited to, the Elaine Massacre in 1919 in Elaine, Arkansas and the Tulsa Race Massacre in 1921 in Oklahoma.References: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/death-hundreds-elaine-massacre-led-supreme-court-take-major-step-toward-equal-justice-african-americans-180969863/ and https://www.history.com/topics/roaring-twenties/tulsa-race-massacre 73.131.218.114 (talk) 14:20, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Feel free to be bold and make those revisions if you feel they fit. Ckruschke (talk) 18:29, 12 June 2020 (UTC)Ckruschke

Neutrality

152.131.9.129 (talk · contribs) added the following text and {{POV-statement}} to the article at 18:22, 26 March 2012 presumably with the intention of raising a {{POV}} issue: The events listed are subject to opinion as to whether they meet the standards or definitions for "massacre". The definitions of massacre are nearly always confined to killing of large numbers of people who are defenseless or otherwise not engaged in a battle. Many of the examples are either one-sided battles of recognized parties involved in a conflict or events where the facts of the case are much in contention (i.e. nearly all events involving American Indians and any other party, or any group involved in conflict with the federal or state government). This article suffers from the lack of a clear definition and guidelines for inclusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.131.9.129 (talk • contribs) 18:22, 26 March 2012

Two months have passed since the NPOV tag was redated to October 2012. I don't see any discussion here other than comments by an anonymous person. If someone can point to specific issues with this list, we can work through them individually, but I have looked at all the pages linked to California and many of the other pages. Most of these were named "massacre" at or near the time of their occurrence. American Indian massacres, including those in California are well documented. I removed the NPOV tag on the main page. If Massacre is poorly defined, the place to suggest that is on Talk:Massacre because this main page links to that at the top. Ellin Beltz (talk) 23:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Incident Names

In merging the previously separate tables into a single one to allow sorting by anything other than state I noted that some of the incident names are preceded by the year in which they took place (eg. 2011 Tucson shooting). While I'm aware that the year may form part of the popular name for the incidents, I wonder if the year might be better removed for the purpose of alphabetical sorting of the incidents. Once time passes and people forget what year they took place but remember the location, perhaps removing the year-prefixes from the incident names would make for an easier time finding them. The date and location columns would remain then be useful for those remembering where and when an incident occurred, which perhaps leaves room for the name column to sort alphabetically without the year throwing things off. Thoughts? Jack of Many (talk) 12:15, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

This is a very poor format. Needs to be put into ONE list

This list, broken apart as it is by state, is useless. Not everyone wants this data sorted by state. In fact, most people want all this data sorted not by state, but by either date or the number of people killed. That's impossible in its current format. By combining these 50 lists into one list, people will be able to sort not only by date or the number of people killed, but by state, as well. Someone please do the right thing and change this! Thank you. 16:12, 15 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.247.209 (talk)

Agreed completely. Absolutely terrible format. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.13.238 (talk) 15:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. This is a very long list, longer than the massacres of other countries. Some individual states have had quite a large number of massacres, and some readers may want to see a list of massacres in a particular state. Shaliya waya (talk) 22:06, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

They would be still able to sort by state! All they need is click on a further added State column. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.252.72.61 (talk) 05:12, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

By year instead of by state would be better, IMO.99.195.109.234 (talk) 20:34, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Agree. If this were to be made into one list, the year and state could be split into separate searchable columns. The only problem I see is that for events with ranges of deaths (e.g. 200-300) the mortality total column doesn't sort correctly. I don't know how to fix that. Also I'd like to suggest that all the anonymous commentators get wiki accounts because it's a lot easier to talk to people than to a string of numbers which are subject to change. Ellin Beltz (talk) 06:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi there! Thanks for asking me to come by Ellin. I agree, this is a really important article and condensing it into one list could be valuable and more readable. I often have to ask for help when it comes to my tables - I've made a few in my day! (List of California Historical Landmarks and List of public art in Washington, D.C., for example...yes...all of those lists!) I do agree that being able to organize it by state, date, and title/name are important. I think the range of deaths might not be that bad when sorting - as long as we clean it up and make it consistent. For example, estimated deaths can have an * symbol, or a note that is at the bottom of the page noting it's estimated. As you can see, the "notes" sections aren't sortable, so there is some type of way to do it. (We just have to figure out how...) I'd just start drafting it in a sub page or a userspace - I'm happy to delete and clean up things if needed, and lend a hand of support as the process takes place. Ellin - I leave it to you to make the call. I think this list, if it's maintained, can become a featured or good list!!! SarahStierch (talk) 07:21, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the good words, I'm putting citations to the "notes" part as fast as I can so we could start putting it all in a giant sortable list/table quickly. The page seems to be fairly well maintained by a variety of users, which is what it needs for all the local additions. Thank you so much for stopping by and offering to help! Ellin Beltz (talk) 23:23, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Ellin. You'll see I've made the merge, but I'm afraid I have no idea how to solve the sorting for the death tolls. One step I made was to remove symbols such as ~ and ≥ from the deaths as it sorts better that way. Good luck figuring the range numbers out though, I have no input on that. Jack of Many (talk) 12:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I've decided to be bold and merge the different state tables into a single one for a really simple reason. The previous format forced the entire list to be sorted BY STATE only. All other sorting (by deaths, injuries (EDIT - I note that it still can't be sorted by injuries), date and so on) was completely impossible in that format. In the merged format the list can be sorted by any element, including by state. No functionality is lost, and the list is now much more useful (I came here looking for the worst massacres by death and without reading the whole page had no way of finding it). Before reverting it (if you feel that urge) please bring up your reasons here as the edit took a while and I genuinely feel that it is a massive improvement. First give the table a try in its new format though, I'm sure you'll find it much more useful, even if it is a long table when not separated by state... but that's what the column headings are for - sorting. Jack of Many (talk) 12:08, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Citations

Working on adding citations to this page as of 26 December 2012. It will be a lot easier to complete this prior to any rearranging of the page to one long list - if that is agreed on. I should be done adding and checking citations in the next few days. Ellin Beltz (talk) 06:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Ellin - I'm afraid I missed your comment about completing the citations work before merging the table (I read the "terrible format" section before editing, but missed this one). Just wanted to let you know that the order of entries is exactly the same as in the original article, only with the divisions between one table and the next removed to merge them into one. It's up to you whether you revert my edit for ease of referencing (I assume you were editing the individual state tables rather than the whole article) but I'm not sure I'll have the drive to re-do the table merge as it wasn't a quick job. If you do revert, please first take note of the other edits I made (like removing ≥ and ~ in the deaths column for proper sorting, and adding the death-toll from Waxhaw) so they don't get lost. I think they may be worth keeping even if my bold move stepped on your toes for referencing to the point you want to revert. If it has made things trickier, I apologise. Jack of Many (talk) 12:46, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

No worries, I'll keep poking at this to put citation at end of every line. Ellin Beltz (talk) 00:46, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

How many makes a massacre?

There's an entry in the article where just ONE person was killed. Should that really be on this page? There are incidents with fewer people harmed which are popularly known as a "massacre" but I'm unsure about 1 death and 5 injuries being a massacre. The main wikipedia article doesn't refer to it as a massacre either. Grounds for removal? Jack of Many (talk) 12:26, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree, but I was planning to do all the content fixes after getting citations attached to all, making sure the death/injury numbers are correct (so far some have not matched what was in the article). I have a really linear brain, so one step, two step, but please feel free to keep making corrections and fixes, seems like you and I are some of the only named individuals active on this page at the moment. Ellin Beltz (talk) 00:47, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Absolutely nothing wrong with taking a linear approach - until someone like me goes all bull-in-a-china-shop and does things out of order anyway! Haha. I'm more of a floating editor. I sort of pop in and out of articles as they grab my fancy. Big things like this table merge and the couple of articles I've made a major contribution to are rare. I don't really know where I stand on the SJF shooting being on here. While there was only one death, the shooter certainly tried to kill more than just one. Certainly an attempt.Jack of Many (talk) 12:07, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Indian massacres duplicates removed

I've removed Indian massacres duplicated between this list and the list of Indian Massacres. I cross checked visually and move over those which are not duplicates. The following have been removed from this article space. Archive here. Ellin Beltz (talk) 19:57, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Hawaii

I removed events form before Hawaii was part of the United States and still sovereign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.167.132.164 (talk) 17:50, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

default sorting for this list.

The default display method for this list should be CHRONOLOGICAL. The default at the moment appears to be random. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.197.76 (talk) 18:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

It is currently sorted by state. I agree it should be chronological. Netrogeractor (talk) 19:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Additional working definitions (e.g. common names, riots, etc?)

There probably should be some additional guidelines as to how to evaluate the adding to/deletion from this list. I'm not sure what would qualify for this list or what should be excluded since massacre has such a strong POV. For example the Boston Massacre was a riot that resulted in killings, but its common name makes it appropriate here. Less clear is an event like the Kent State shootings which has been recently removed by another editor, even though some sources refer to it as a massacre. I know that "race riots" are listed separately, but what about other forms of rioting or protests that include some physical attacks on those who end up shooting?

And what about extended events like the Great Hanging at Gainesville? An extra-judicial court was used for a portion of the victims, but roughly half were simply executed by a mob without even a farce of a trial. This one fits under lynchings for certain, but does it also qualify as a massacre or does that just muddy terminology? (Should being on one list typically exclude inclusion on the other?) Other examples would be drumhead court martials such as at the Sacking of Osceola--where the proceedings are unspecified/apparently undocumented and victims' identities unknown.

A concern I have is about "creep" of common names in wiki articles and blogs (and vice versa) that then get picked up by journalists and sometimes authors, transforming historical names through echo into ones that are more charged with POV. I see some evidence of that in naming of Civil War events at times. A list like this one could have a tendency to serve as a springboard for what are essentially circular references. That leads to the question of what level of evidence is required in prior name use or criteria for reclassification onto this list. Red Harvest (talk) 08:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

What is the definition of a massacre?

Trying to figure out the format of this page. There are "massacres" that include less than five people which somewhat clearly goes against the dictionary definition of deliberately and violently kill (a large number of people). Also one of the "massacres", of Cowboys by a group of Ute Indians, does not appear to fit the definition at all as it was vigilante gang of whites who pursued the Utes. It also does talk to the number of Utes that were killed on the other side. So it looks to me like this page could stand some trimming. Ckruschke (talk) 15:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)Ckruschke

Since there were no comments and its been six weeks, I'm going to cut all "massacres" from the list that have less than 5 deaths. Its an arbitrary number, but this page is getting out of control. I'm happy to be wrong if anyone has a comment. Ckruschke (talk) 18:52, 27 January 2016 (UTC)Ckruschke

What is the basis for this list?

This list is missing major incidents: the Oklahoma City federal building bombing; the plane attacks on the World Trade Center; the Orlando nightclub massacre. All of these are absent. These and other similar incidents need to be included or their exclusion needs to be explained.Dogru144 (talk) 23:56, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

If you feel there are important events missing, please feel free to add them and rejigger the lists as necessary. No one has ownership here. Ckruschke (talk) 16:14, 9 January 2017 (UTC)Ckruschke

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Mass murder vs. massacre

There are several examples included in this list of a single shooter killing multiple people. The definition of massacre in that article differentiates it from mass murder because one group kills another. And some of the single-shooter incidents do not meet the definition given in the article for mass murder, which requires four or more deaths. As there are other lists for mass murderers, spree killers, and school shooters, I would recommend removing the single-shooter incidents from this list. Otherwise the definition of "massacre" in the article for massacre should be revised. Netrogeractor (talk) 07:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Here's the list of which entries were removed because they were single shooters, spree murders or school killings, so far. I am as far down as Nebraska tonight, and hopefully will finish sometimes this weekend. I will put the rest of the removed here so if perhaps I took one which should have stayed it will be easier to put it back. Ellin Beltz (talk) 04:47, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• Finished the list today, removing single perpetrators and terrorism incidents. I put see also to List of Terrorism events, hopefully that will stop someone from re-adding 9/11 over and over. Ellin Beltz (talk) 23:36, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Archived the list here today. Ellin Beltz (talk) 20:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

The article of massacre does not differ from mass murder regarding one group killing another. Nor its common use (newspapers, tv). I suggest that this list shoud be comprehensive as long as the definition holds. Wikipedia massacre entry explicitly states " The common factor of a massacre (as with mass murder) is that multiple people are being violently killed by other people." Oxford dicitonary defines Massacre as: "an indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of many people.". I will add a cautionary statement in the beggining of the article, noticing the exclusion of many other massacres which are considered in the other articles cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.16.16.13 (talk) 14:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

• I'm confused. This list is rife with mass-murderer references which do not meet the definition provided.QuintBy (talk)

Goliad massacre?

The massacre at Goliad occurred during the Texas Revolution, when Texas was not a part of the United States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.63.20.102 (talk) 22:08, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Recent change re Nauvoo Legion...

...has a strong suggestion of whitewashing an unpleasant part of history. It also seems to have violated BRD. Anmccaff (talk) 04:22, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. If I'd seen it, I would have fixed it as well. Ckruschke (talk) 19:20, 6 October 2017 (UTC)Ckruschke

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Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2018

"Golden Dragon massacre" date incorrectly changed to 1877. The year should be 1977. 2605:6000:9FC0:62:2999:5AF7:2E65:52C2 (talk) 02:24, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 02:44, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2018

Add Sand Creek Massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre) Add San Francisco Riot of 1877 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_riot_of_1877) Conquerbread (talk) 23:15, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: Sand Creek massacre is properly listed at List of Indian massacres and the San Francisco riot of 1877 is properly listed at List of incidents of civil unrest in the United States. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 13:47, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 October 2018

I did not see the Ludlow Massacre included in the list, and it should be. 216.161.40.11 (talk) 17:00, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: It's already there. Use your browser's find feature to find it Cannolis (talk) 17:54, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Trail of Tears? Not a massacre.

Though there is no doubt that many people died on the so-called Trail of Tears this was hardly a massacre. It was a disaster, a tragedy, but certainly not a massacre. See Wikipage on the subject. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.174.148 (talk) 17:41, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Westminster massacre

Westminster massacre links here, but it's not listed here. --79.24.164.35 (talk) 13:00, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Porvenir massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porvenir_massacre_%281918%29 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.8.177.34 (talk) 19:09, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

2 questions

• Is this list in any particular order? If not, may I suggest that we rework it to be either chronological, or geographic by state (and chronological within that).
• Given the separate List of Indian massacres in North America, shouldn't the California Genocide and Spirit Lake Massacre be there, rather than here?

Jmabel | Talk 00:16, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Atlanta Race Massacre - Missing?

It appears that your list does not include the Atlanta Race Massacre of 1906. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_Atlanta_race_riot Perhaps it is for some reason, but in case it is a simple oversight, I am passing on the link. Thanks! MT Byers 107.13.143.110 (talk) 16:07, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

The Orlando Night Club shooting was not an anti-LGBT motivated shooting. But who cares about facts... Oh, here's my souce - take it with a grain of salt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:642:C401:72D0:1D0C:5A88:3143:DE4 (talk) 21:01, 25 January 2023 (UTC)