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Talk:List of cities proper by population

May 3, 2008 Articles for deletion Kept
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SydneyEdit

Why is Sydney (pop 4.4 million) not included?2600:1700:EDC0:3E80:B98B:34DD:8A6C:B1A0 (talk) 03:59, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

The City of Sydney has only 208,000 people [1] Mattximus (talk) 10:42, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
London is included, but the City of London has only 7000 people. The Sydney LGAs just like London boroughs are supposed to make up a single municipality.108.196.40.52 (talk) 18:45, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Well, no, that's not how it works. There is no comprehensive local government above the LGAs that is "Sydney," only a statistical desgination. "Sydney" doesn't have an over-arching local government; London does. --Criticalthinker (talk) 18:51, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
But London is structured much like Sydney. Until 2000, London had no over-arching government eitherBjoh249 (talk) 06:07, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
As you say, now London does, but Sydney does not. That's about it. Batternut (talk) 08:38, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

AbidjanEdit

The population of Abidjan currently being used is that of the autonomous district, not the city. The district includes some areas that aren't actually in Abidjan's boundaries. I suggest we change the population to being that of the city and not the district. ParadiseDesertOasis8888 (talk) 07:01, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Is there a level of government responsible for just Abidjan city, and not the rest of the district? If so, then you would be right. Batternut (talk) 13:54, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
See, you haven't been reading the discussion here closely. Our definition of "city proper" isn't a spatial measure of a settlement, but must include some kind of administrative area. Some "city propers" are metropolitan in their governance. Others have much tighter administrative boundaries formed just around the core settlement. Abidjan's "city proper" is its district. Again, you do not need to keep asking about every single entry on this chart you have a question about. --Criticalthinker (talk) 14:56, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

DelhiEdit

When did Dehli get changed and who changed it? It's been explained before, but the "city proper" - the local government that covers most of the NCT but not all of it - is the noew trifercated Municipal Corporation of Delhi.

http://www.census2011.co.in/census/city/49-delhi.html

They give the population for the (now-trifercated) municipal corporation as 11,034,555. I'm confused, is this "Municipal Corporation of Delhi" as measured by the Census in 2011 not cover the whole area of the actual boundaries of the trifercated Municipal Corporation of Delhi. Is it some kind of statistical "settlement" measurement that isn't the whole former municipal corporation? I guess this could easily be found out by finding a Census map, but I'm nto sure where to find those. The Census measures a few different versions of the area: the entire Delhi NCT, and an urban/rural split of the territory/state, a "big cities" settlement/statistical measurement within the state, and lastly "Metropolitan Delhi" but it appears only that part of it that is in the NCT. So then I guess the "Municipal Corporation of Delhi" is actually measuring a statistical/settlement division and not the former Municipal Corporation, correct? I'm deducing this from the act that this is in the "big cities" category, which shows it with statistical "census towns," and it's not possible for over 6 million inhabitants to live outside the old Municipal Corporation given that it covered almost all of the NCT. --Criticalthinker (talk) 10:41, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, what was the city proper did not cover the whole NCT. NCT population is ~16 million, the old Municipal Corporation had ~ 11 million. The row in this article gives the definition as "Union territory", ie NCT. Maybe by analogy with City of London (an extreme case), actually the bigger unit is more representative of the city. Since the 2012 trifurcation the old "city proper" no longer exists as it was. The scope of the Delhi article seem to be the NCT rather than the old boundaries of the Municipal Corporation. Perhaps the NCT is the city now? Rake through the file history to see who left it like this, if important.
The article currently uses an odd figure though, the urban agglomeration. So that is wrong, although similar. The NCT population is 16,787,941 according to http://www.census2011.co.in/census/state/delhi.html. (Beware Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_236#onefivenine.com_-_broad_consensus_sought this RSN discussion which after under 4 days decided that census2011.co.in was not RS!). Batternut (talk) 15:46, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
There is a misunderstanding. While the old Municipal Corporation of Delhi exists, it was simply split into three different municipal corporations, so the former city proper can still be measured by finding the sum of the population and area of those three municipal corporations. What I'm trying to specifically figure out is what the 2011 Census measures as the "Municipal Corporation of Delhi" as it still would have been in existence at the Census. I've been under the impression that it measured the actual Municipal Corporation of Delhi, but looking back at it, it couldn't as there is no way that 5 million people existed outside the boundaires of the local government area which covered nearly the entire NCT...so it must have been a statistical measure irrespective of the boundaries of the Municipal Corporation of Delhi. My gut feeling is that it was a statistical "settlement" area that much have only include the most developed and contiguous parts of the urban area, and probably included the local government areas of the Delhi Cantonment and New Delhi. --Criticalthinker (talk) 12:41, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
BTW, it's hard to argue for the NCT being the "city proper" when the civic administration of the city is actually carried out by incorporated cities within it. I think one of the few things we've been able to come to consensus on is that the local body that best represents a concept for a "city proper" is the one that carries out the civic/local administration. The trifurcation may end up being a factor to argue that Delhi should be taken off the list, but the state/territorial government of Delhi does not carry out the local government of the large part of the metropolis. Those bodies that carry out local government in the NCT (now) include North Delhi Municipal Corporation, South Delhi Municipal Corporation and East Delhi Municipal Corporation (the old Municipal Corporation of Delhi), and Delhi Cantt and New Dehli Municipal Council. As I said, I'd be willing to make a special case - since we've made special cases for others - that the "city proper" is the old city proper (the now-trifurcated Municipal Corporation of Delhi), though we'd have to first find if there is even a population and area figure for that former body. But it's hard to make an arguement for Delhi National Capital Territory (NTC) being the "city proper." --Criticalthinker (talk) 13:19, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
The UN Habitat defined "city proper" as "the single political jurisdiction which contains the historical city centre". Delhi's historical centre is Old Delhi, which falls under North Delhi Municipal Corporation. So that's the city proper now, at least under the current, rather simplistic definition that we use. If subsequent to the next census we end up having to add the populations and areas together for the three (or more) municipal corporation that we consider the true city proper of Delhi we can be accused of WP:OR. I would however tend towards a more flexible, editor consensus approach, despite its pitfalls. It doesn't really make sense for Delhi city proper to shrink to 1/3 of its previous size and population. Batternut (talk) 16:05, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Who changed Delhi's population? Even if we're going to go with the statistical "city" number - which includes areas in all of the municipalities within the NCT - that number was 11,034,555 at the 2011 Census, not the 11.6 million currently listed. I'm not sure where that number is even coming from. --Criticalthinker (talk) 17:36, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Now someone messed with the densities for the cities. Someone needs to lock this. --Criticalthinker (talk) 11:56, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Refimprove tagEdit

I removed the "Refimprove" tag because there are 157 references on the article and concerns should be specific as to allow improvements. If someone has a specific concern, by all means, reinsert the tag but please let's discuss the specifics. Otr500 (talk) 11:41, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

ErrorsEdit

I think this article is full of population errors and outdated estimates, as well as inconsistencies with each individual city's wikipedia page. For example, the population of Beijing is always listed as 21.7M, but here it's listed as 20.7M and the reference for that fact is a broken link. I think someone should go through with real sources and update the population stats, as well as confirm that they are consistent with each city's individual page. (Especially Lagos and Kinshasa) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sradgowski (talkcontribs) 19:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes it's a complete mess. I tried to merge this article into List of largest cities but didn't get the support it needed. We have too many similar lists to have eyes keeping track of all of them. I still think there should just be 1 list for population of cities, instead of the 5 we have now. Mattximus (talk) 23:54, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
    Return to "List of cities proper by population" page.