Talk:List of best-selling girl groups/Archive 7

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Archive 7

Regarding Little Mix's claimed sales

I've stated this everytime I edited this article, but it seems I've to bring this matter in the talk page to make it clear once and for all.

Little Mix definitely DID NOT sale 70, 65 nor even 60 million records and here's why:

After checking all of their certified sales from albums and singles, the total certified sales of their records is 28.7 million, now the question is: how can a group that have debuted in the 2010s have missing certs/sales that are double (if not more) than their certified sales? It just doesn't make any sense that your missing certs/sales is more than your actual certified sales, and the fact that their claimed sales would put them close to other legendary acts such as Spice Girls, TLC or Destiny's Child is even more ridiculous to me; and oh, to put that into comparison, Spice Girls have certified sales of 45.1 million, TLC have 44.7 million, and Destiny's Child have 49 million, so despite the fact that these three girl groups are older than Little Mix, they still have a much higher certified sales than LM.

It's pretty obvious this is nothing but a trick made by their record label and fan sites, in order for them to inflate their sales and convince the public that LM sold this much amount of records when in reality they didn't. I'm pretty certain they know about the existence of this article, and I'm sure their priority is to push LM into the top 3 best selling girl groups of all time.

I think the most logical and accurate sales claim for them is 50 million, even though I still think that's inflated for them but I guess we have to make some compromises right? And since the 50 million sales claim was provided by a highly regarded British newspaper The Independent (a third-party source) and the article was published in late 2019, so it's still pretty recent and usable.

With that being said, I guess I don't have any other thing to add here, other editors can definitely come here and share their thoughts regarding this insanity. I'm gonna wait for a week, if there are no objections, I'll proceed with the implementation. Moh8213 (talk) 15:57, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Yep, and that's why claimed "sales figures" for Little Mix or any artist, even the Beatles or Elvis Presley or Abba, are usually garbage, and why "best-selling lists" like this one are pointless in sourcing accurate factual data. Even though The Independent is a reliable source, their figure of 50 million will still have been supplied to them by the record label... it's not like the newspaper is going to have access to worldwide sales figures themselves. So really even reliable sources like the BBC or newspapers are still only quoting fabricated figures by the record company. I suspect Little Mix's actual sales figures, i.e. paid-for sales, are below 25 million worldwide, possibly less than 20 million. But as streaming and watching YouTube videos now counts as "sales", this figure has been bumped up dramatically. Richard3120 (talk) 16:15, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Look at Bananarama – the BBC stated 40 million sales worldwide. I don't believe that for a second – their certified sales come to about 8 million, and outside of the UK and Ireland, their success has basically been "Venus" and the accompanying True Confessions album, and the occasional single in Australia/New Zealand and a few European countries. But the BBC has been told they sold 40 million records, so it must be true... Richard3120 (talk) 16:22, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Finally someone with knowledge is literally so embarrasing the way that the label and their fans pushes them, their record sales are literally the same or much lower than what has probably FH sold, fifth harmony is a group that still doesn't have their total record sales confirmed, however their Asia and Latin America sales are much stronger than LM's, they were certified for 1B units in Asia and that's an estimate between 10M, the 21M in the USA and others record sales from others countries will make a significant accurate acclaim for at least 50 million, their highest is an E! Online article in spanish which provided a 33 million claim which seems accurate for them around that time, however their label sabotaged them in so many ways and till this day they are being overshadowed by other girl groups in purpose, poor Fifth Harmony, they don't remember them anymore but at least they're not inflating figures to remember what they did as a girl group, they are not confirmed cause the label don't want to create controversy or simply respect the way the girls talk about the experience while they were in FH, their sales with stream is a much higher figure of course see this https://mobile.twitter.com/DailySupremes/status/1534789592611708928 but its literally so sad the way no one seems to care about their legacy not even their label but other groups are being pushed and glorified out of very delusional and misleading claims. Moonlight Entm (talk) 00:35, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Fifth Harmony did recieved this plaque for 1 billion units sold in Asia by Sony Music Asia but of course that means that streams, digital and physical sales were counted so its just a calculation, the figure is mostly backed up with streaming of course however i don't understand why there's not even a single one source/claim/information or a higher figure about their record sales out there, maybe its because they disbanded however that's not an excuse when other disbanded groups have their sales confirmed maybe is because all the drama that sorrounded them, but its of course delusional to think that they sold less than 30M records, its delusional to think they sold more than 60M too however they were much more successful than LM in the sales section and everyone knows that for more that they want to deny it. Moonlight Entm (talk) 00:53, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

To Richard3120, exactly, it just doesn't make any sense at all, the only advantage newer artists have over the older ones is streaming which can help their records (specifically singles) to get over certified by hundreds of thousands of units. But despite all of this, LM still have a lower certified sales than the other groups I mentioned above, so what's the point of us to keep increasing their claimed sales? There's a reason why Spice Girls aren't included in the list of best-selling music artists, even though they have claimed sales of 75-100 million records, their certified sales is very low to support such sales. So technically that 100 million for SG is also "inflated" but that's another topic. Tbh I wouldn't mind if there's a claimed sales of less than 50 million for LM, but since there's virtually none, I guess the 50 million is the only option we have.

To Moonlight Entm, I sorta agree with u, FH, as far as I can remember, were definitely a more famous group than LM, I just found out about the latter when I started editing this article, but FH already had hits that were in rotation throughout the mid-2010s, but after checking their certified sales they only have 23.6 million (lower than LM) so while their success was bigger than LM, it was short lived. And btw, there's no such thing called "confirmed" in music sales, there's only statistics, and we should only focus in which of those statistics are the most accurate. Moh8213 (talk) 17:56, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213: no question that Fifth Harmony should be on the list somewhere. Little Mix's sales are basically confined to the UK, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand, and the latter two countries have very small sales markets, while Fifth Harmony's sales were spread out all over the world, including of course the two huge markets of the US and the far east. But because we don't have a reliable source, they're not included here. I can think of at least two other all-female groups who I am confident have sold around 30 million records each – the Bangles and the Dixie Chicks – but I can't find any sales figures, so they're not listed here. But then we come to another problem: editors will say these two bands are not girl groups. But we don't have any standard definition of a girl group, so who decides if they should be included or not?

The country lists are far from definitive as well – if I look at the section of best-selling girl group singles for the UK, it's pretty much known among UK chart-watchers that Baccara's "Yes Sir I Can Boogie" has sold over 700,000 copies in the UK. But no reliable source, so no inclusion on the list. I also don't think that the Spice Girls' "Mama" is the no. 10 on physical sales... I think "Frankie" by Sister Sledge has sold more than this. I'd be interested to see updated sales figures for two other songs as well, "Eternal Flame" by the Bangles and "Substitute" by Clout, both of which must be close to or past the 600,000 limit to qualify for inclusion on the UK list.

This is why I've never been happy with this article – readers take it as definitive, and almost all of it is total guesswork and made-up numbers. Richard3120 (talk) 20:46, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Well the singles you've mentioned are all from the late 70s and 80s so finding a source for sales of these singles is easier said than done. Tho luckily, there's a source for the single Substitute that states the single has passed the 600k mark.

It's already been 2 weeks and so far I'm not seeing any objections on LM's 50 million sales claim, I guess I'll do the action. Moh8213 (talk) 19:33, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213: I'll just point out that the claimed sales figures in that book are widely considered to be nonsense, so I wouldn't use it as proof that "Substitute" has definitely passed 600,000 sales.in the UK. Also, you will never, ever find accurate sales figures for records from the 1970s and 1980s, for the simple reason that not a single country in the world was recording sales figures at that time... the first country to record every single sale in the shops was the USA in 1991. Any sales figures you find in Billboard, Music Week or anywhere else during this period are estimates based on Record company shipments... so again, estimates based on record company guesswork. Richard3120 (talk) 20:08, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

To Richard3120 there's actually a claim of the Dixie chicks sales by billboard i think, but a user reverted when i put cause they are a girlband not a girl group. Moonlight Entm (talk) 21:41, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

May I add to this conversation? There are a few articles from the times and vaniety that includes the group's 60 million sales so aren't those articles considered reliable. would LM certified sales come from music certifications that they have received for their singles and albums, like the silver, and gold certifications for eg? Is that what certified sales mean? This is just a theory but is it possible that their record label could have just updated their sales claim but they haven't updated their eligible music certifications for album and singles that would be needed to be put onto wikipedia which could go towards proving the new updated sales claim? I can understand there be confusion because their sales have gone from 50M - to 60M - to even 70 over the span of a few weeks but most of their articles used to confirm some of these sales come from different years. I dont think their 60 million sales is inflated by the record label because you also got to take into consideration streaming aswell which now contributes to sales. Other girl groups like TLC and Destiny child definitely have sold more than lm but the reason as to why little mix sales is so close to theirs at the moment is because those groups records sales haven't been updated in some time. Plus lm for example have a lot of eligible certifications in the states dating back to 2015 which haven't been updated by their American label. FH wasn't the only gg that was sabotaged lm also was by their American label; each member from the group has spoken about this to a certain degree in interviews. Both fh and lm created their own legacies during the 2010s but to assume that people only glorified other groups and maybe lm because "of delusional and misleading" claims is false. There are many contributing factors as to why more groups including lm are spoken about more than compared to fh but that doesn't mean I going to come on a talk page and write a long paragraph putting one girl group down just to uplift another. This whole debate about which group was more successful is stupid considering both of them was successful in other areas than some weren't. Btw Little Mix sales aren't just limited down to Australia, UK, NZ, and Ireland, they also come from other European and Latin American countries and plus like i previously mentioned the girls have loads of eligible music certifications available for them in the states which their label won't update.

 Rustyleigh (talk) 00:32, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

What you wrote is literally is coming from a whole place of pure biasedness, you are not subjective, you are being biased cause you are their fan, here is the thing this list only includes pure sales so you bringing out streaming is exactly the reason why those 60 and 65 million claims are inflamation, thats what you haven't understand, i only talked about fh's clear mistreatment/boycott they been having ever since they disbanded till now, lm's label is using tricks to widen their reputation while FH's fading away and their label barely talks about them, and that's not okay cause its misleading people, we're being realistic, we are not hating or putting LM down as your fan instinct is believing, if LM has eligible certifications so has other groups and FH too, and that's not an excuse cause those certifications come from streaming more than pure or physical sales, to have an exact figure of what they have sold you may have to calculate their pure sales and you"ll see yourself that it won't reach those impossible figures of 60/65/70, or have a report from the IFBI which i don't think we"ll ever have, so that's why we're doing this, we are protecting wikipedia's reputation, we are trying to be a place of accurate reliability, this is why some many people discredits WP, if you see FH's number is 33M which is acclaim from 2016 and their sales haven't updated yet, and its 90% accurate cause its closer to their certified sales around that time however 6 years has passed thats why its only 90%, not 100%, on other hand LM's article is from 2019 which is still usable, if you count LM's sales since 2019 you can tell that they've been degrading fast, and barely selling more than 200k, so how 50M quickly changes up to 15 million more?, such a huge difference, in just literally 3 years, it doesn't make any sense, use consesus. Moonlight Entm (talk) 00:59, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Actually i find something very useful, this article from 2019 of Sony Music which says they sold more than 45 million records, if you think the 50M claim is still inflated which kinda is, we can use this,it says more than 45M which can mean a lot of numbers not necessarily up to 50M maybe 46M or 48M. https://www.sonymusic.co.uk/little-mix-release-new-single-bounce-back/#:~:text=Little%20Mix%20have%20sold%20more,and%20nine%20platinum%2Dselling%20singles. Moonlight Entm (talk) 01:06, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Rustyleigh you're missing the entire point on a few things here. it does not matter if lm has sold 50 million records worldwide or even 70 million what others editors are trying to point out is that the certified sales that they have through wikipedia doesn't match the sales claim that has been provided by their record label. The 50 million records seems more reasonable to me. Tbh just let this whole debate go about record sales and who was the more successful girl group out of fh & lm. while we are on this topic any chance that someone could block this user Kyleselina from editing on these pages? This user has been warned numerous times on their page and through other sites about adding and removing false information amongst other stuff they keep doing Escmix (talk) 01:11, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

you are clearly putting them down in favour of fh. why say "if you count LM's sales since 2019 you can tell that they've been degrading fast, and barely selling more than 200k" which is completely false considering a lot of their singles in the UK for example have been selling over 600k units (I'm aware that also comes from streaming) holiday, break up song song, sweet melody, confetti etc have all sold at least between 400k and 600k copies in the uk which doesn't match your claim of them "barely selling more than 200k" Rustyleigh (talk) 01:33, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm talking about pure copies, they're barely selling more than 200k and that's a fact, lm5 debuted with just 55k and has only sold with stream of course like 300k same as Confetti, so my statement that "they're selling barely 200k" is 100% accurate, those singles sales are 99% streaming and pretty sure they sold less than 15k downloads. Moonlight Entm (talk) 04:34, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Plus i'm not putting them down to uplift FH, i'm just saying a fact, just like how it says, TRUTH HURTS. Moonlight Entm (talk) 04:35, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

The truth doesn't hurt when majority of the things you are saying are completely untrue and just unbias. Continue to be a bitter editor lmao Rustyleigh (talk) 06:06, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh by the way I highly recommend maybe changing the way that you edit and interact with other editors on here considering the fact that you seem to have a reputation with constant destructive editing and engaging in fights with others. Oh and if you want to keep long paragraphs comparing girl groups and being bias keep that stunt for fan wars fights on twitter Rustyleigh (talk) 06:12, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Rustyleigh, since you're having a hard time comprehending what the other editors are saying, lemme just give u an example on how streaming is negatively impacting today's music sales.

I'm sure everybody knows that Drake was perhaps the most popular rapper of the 2010s, and no surprise within just a decade of releasing music he's already in the list of the best-selling music artists, he currently has certified sales of a whopping 397.8 million records. Now obviously by this figure you're supposed to believe that Drake is the best selling artist of all time, right? Well on the other hand, his claimed sales are reported to be at 170 million records, which is tbh a realistic figure for his sales, that shows how the overwhelming majority of his sales are streaming generated, and the same case goes to other new (and even some old) artists. So now back to LM, not only their certified sales are low but also most of them are solely based on streaming, so basically at this point, we are being more than generous for giving them the 50 million sales claim, as their claimed sales wouldn't actually reach that figure. As a result, this article was poorly maintained for the longest time, but fortunately the days for that has ended. I'm gon' analyse each of the girl groups' certified sales within the next few months and then we gon' decide whose are the inflated ones, and as such we gon' decrease their claimed sales if there are reliable sources for such claimed sales. Some of 'em might even be removed from the list if their certified sales are too low to support their claimed sales. Moh8213 (talk) 20:50, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

How i am being rude to you? Actually the problems that happened was because some biased editors like you insulted me calling me names like "bitch" or reverted my edits when they were accurate from a wikipedia standpoint, i never fought with anybody as i said i'm 100% unbiased and very subjective, what i wrote of FH and LM was simply the truth and not a comparison to tear one of them down, is simply that LM ended up loosing in a realistic analysis, keep twitter for yourself as your username says, "Leigh", you're clearly a LM fan, and that is blocking you from understanding some facts or not relying yourself on favoritism, you are very sensitive person if you think i ever put or insulted LM, saying that they did not sell 65M records should not offend anyone, its just a realistic statement. Moonlight Entm (talk) 00:37, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213: the issue is that nobody should decide which are the supposedly inflated sales... that's original research. All this page should do is state the claimed sales in reliable sources, and that's it... it's then up to the reader to decide if those figures are true or not. Certified sales will not help you anyway with the Supremes and the Andrews Sisters, because the majority of their sales took place before certification organizations existed, so you will end up with almost zero certified sales for these two groups, and that won't reflect reality. Richard3120 (talk) 19:22, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@Richard3120: but this is where information becomes a problem, there's more than just 1 claimed sales for those artists, we obviously can't know which one is "true" and which one is "false" but at least, we can check which one of 'em are realistic by using the available certified sales of those artists, and this where the certified sales come into place, it can show us the gap between the certified sales and the claimed sales of the given artists, if the gap is too big, then there's no point whatsoever for us to use that claimed sales and it'd be much more preferable to use the one with smaller gap. As for the Supremes and the Andrews Sisters since they sold in an era before certifications existed, we can at least give them an exception to stay on this list.

See Wikipedia is a place of information and the reader comes here to get "factual" information, so why would we use incredibly unrealistic sales claim for those artists? There has to be limits so that there won't be anymore inflated sales figures in the future. Moh8213 (talk) 21:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Sure, I understand what you're saying, but we still don't know which information is "factual" – I would talk with Harout72, who maintains the List of best-selling music artists, and ask him how he makes the decision on which claimed figures stay and which ones are discarded. For example, I've seen claimed figures for ABBA from 300 million up to 600 million(!) sales... 600 million is clearly way too high but he has settled on the 100–150 million range, and I don't know how that's been decided.

For the Supremes, we have anything from 20 million to 100 million sales, and my own personal, 100% WP:OR opinion is that neither figure is close to being correct... I would estimate 40–50 million, but we don't have a source for that kind of figure, only for the two extreme figures. I think you'll find that for a lot of the artists on the list, the certified figure is much lower than the claimed sales, probably only around 25%, which may confuse the issue even more. Certification totals are likely to be an accurate estimate only for artists from this century. Richard3120 (talk) 01:46, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi folks. I was the one who actually put The Andrew Sisters on the list because they came before from every girl group we know (except The Ronettes, The Supremes) and nobody was paying attention to them. I believe everyone was just fighting with these new girlgroups. And by the way, Escmix I'm not going to stop in editing either I get right ir not on a source. I wanna help the best I can! Kyleselina (talk) 14:24, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Edit warring using edit summaries in place of discussion

I'm ready to task a few editors here unless they start having disagreements on this talk page, not in lengthy edit summaries. It is perfectly fine with me there's disagreement; sometimes it's the only way to find agreement. But trying to make any kind of case via edit summaries looks just like edit warring to me. Perhaps blockable, and certainly warn-able. This sort of discussion makes those involved look silly. I have zero opinions on the merits, I'd just like other wikipedians to be able to weigh in on such discussion without having to make null edits. BusterD (talk) 23:27, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

I acknowledge that the edit warring seems to have ceased for the last 20 hours. Thank you. I'd like to invite those still in disagreement to hash it out here. BusterD (talk) 20:27, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I've tried to avoid the recent edit warring, as I've stated in the past that I find this article hugely problematic and impossible to ever make a definitive and accurate list – "proof" of sales of almost all of the groups in this article is anything but proof, as it's just numbers supplied to the media by the record companies so they can say anything they want, and which is why there are conflicting figures. But BusterD is right, discussion should take place here on this talk page. Richard3120 (talk) 20:37, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Has a splitting concept ever been tried here? I've seen that tactic work in international sportlist articles when the page got overlarge. Most of these countries could merit their own article, with top-most data included here and main article links in those subheads. Splitting may have the effect of narrowing the universe of contributors by their by-country fandom. I'm not attempting to steer or anything; I'm just seeing lots of random disputes where the by-country splitting might move most controversy to the appropriate page. This page is trying too hard, in my opinion. On the other hand, this is a list of bands made up of living people so BLP has some applicabilty in this situation. The sources here are way weak overall (better in certain sections, granted). BusterD (talk) 20:51, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

No, I don't think that's been suggested. But then perhaps other editors would suggest a list solely for girl groups in a specific country might just as well be incorporated into a list of best-selling records by any artist in that country. One of my biggest issues here is not just the heavy reliance that the sources, even reliable ones like the BBC or newspapers, are doing anything other than reporting what they've been told to report, but also the dependence on certifications for sales estimates: as most countries had no certification process before the late 1970s, all the lists are heavily biased towards more recent acts, as there is no way of estimating sales for older acts. Richard3120 (talk) 21:22, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Several editors are about to be warned for edit warring since they continue to display the same behavior described in my OP. I am an uninvolved admin, and I will block flagrant edit warriors. Right now I'm counting three. BusterD (talk) 02:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

This page has been fully protected so nobody (but admins) can edit for two days. I can renew or extend this protection if you guys discuss exclusively in edit summary again and fail to heed warnings. BusterD (talk) 16:03, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

My issue with this page was never a war, it was an editor who created a war trying to revert or nitpick every single little thing i edit not only in this page believe me, despite me trying to improve pages and trying to collaborate, i think is very unfair of you to block this page since most of us are just trying to get the sources right like me, the other editors are just reverting for simply being biased or having dislike to the most of the groups here, the guy who eliminated the fifth harmony single claim is a hardcore fan of the spice girls and is also discussing with another editor of their album, the guy who removed girls generation 100 claim is still sticking to their old source of 10 years despite that all the sources here were removed except theirs, i'm making fair points, they don't want to accept it cause they're being biased. Moonlight Entm (talk) 17:56, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Plus that user called me "bitch" and "dumb" and was trying to block me with literally 0 reason to, you were sticking by hus side, i've discussed here every little thing i have put out with the other editors, read their talk pages, and also with him but he insulted me instead. Moonlight Entm (talk) 18:01, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Jesus, I didn't know about that. I tought Wikipedia was supposed to be a site that people would want to help and not fight like kids in fifth grade for just stupid numbers. I know I've been "alerted" by a Moh or something on Little Mix sales, I was just (and I'm trying to help the best I can). I'm trying to be logical here, there's a lot users fighting with each other it's nonsense and it's obvious that Little Mix sales are not that high compared to Andrew Sisters, The Supremes or even Spice Girls. I admit I like them and you can't deny that this female group changed the game for a new generation of girl groups where everyone can shine equally. They helped a lot people with their music like you or not. That's why they last 10 years together unlike The Pussycat Dolls, same thing with Sugababes and some other girl groups that didn't get along. Look guys, all I'm saying is that every artist (that actually has cared or stills cares about music in their soul) work harder to get where there are now like Little Mix did. Considers at least this girls a respect to their career. I understand that since The Pussycat Dolls (who sold 55 million sales with just 2 albuns) or even in the early 2000s, the digital era changed everything about sales, so why it's so hard to believe that Little Mix couldn't sells 60 milion sales over a career of a decade of the digital/streaming era? I think it's just time to accept that things has changed. And I know that I keep changing the sales and honestly? I'm tired try to prove a number of sales. I have a life and I know I'm not going to waste my precious energy fighting things like this, that's not me. For anyone that's reading, have a nice day! Kyleselina (talk) 15:02, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Little Mix

Little Mix have sold over 70 million records, and it’s been confirmed. Why is it at 50 million? 24.239.236.149 (talk) 22:35, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Because there are not relible sources. Kyleselina (talk) 15:11, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Reliable.**** Kyleselina (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2022

Born Pink sold 2.14 million copies so it is now the best selling kpop girl group album. Lightlylove (talk) 03:24, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. 💜  melecie  talk - 13:42, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 November 2022

Change Little Mix's record sales from 50 to 70 million. Here is the articles to prove it. https://www.popbuzz.com/music/artists/little-mix/news/hiatus-break-why-speech-farewell-party/ https://chapterzmagazine.com/2022/05/goodbye-to-little-mix-the-unsung-pop-icons/

Michael1444 (talk) 02:05, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

It literally says "according to Sony Music" in the article. So it's not an independent source, it's what the record company tells you. Richard3120 (talk) 02:14, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Couple little issues

First of all, the lede has

the term "girl group" also denotes the wave of American female pop singing groups who flourished in the late 1950s and early 1960s between the decline of early rock and roll and the British Invasion, many of whom were influenced by doo-wop style. This article covers only girl groups from that era and later.

But, we include the Andrews Sisters. And we should, why not? (There then becomes that we have to look at the Lennon Sisters and a couple others; I'm doubtful any pre-Ronettes-era group besides the Andrews sisters qualify, a quick check should tell.) So I'm thinking of a change like maybe this:

(The term "girl group" is also used specifically for the wave of American female pop singing groups who flourished in the late 1950s and early 1960s between the decline of early rock and roll and the British Invasion, many of whom were influenced by doo-wop style. This article covers all girl groups from all eras.)

Or something like that. Any objections or comments?

Also, the article doesn't make clear that we don't cover girl bands like the Go-gos or the Bangles. Yes it does say "A girl group is a popular music act featuring several female singers who generally harmonize together" and that kinda sorta maybe rules out bands like that I guess. OTOH, sometimes sources call them girl groups, and I mean no harm in making it clearer? Agreed? Objections? Herostratus (talk) 03:42, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I have mentioned this in the past (see the archives of this talk page) that this is one of the fundamental problems with this article... there is no clearly defined definition of what a "girl group" is, which makes the whole article original research to some extent. You are right, the lede is largely original research and should be reworded, but the problem is that there is no fixed definition against which to reword it, so your proposed rewording is also original research. And then there is the other problem that you mention, which is which groups should be included or not. Most people would not include rap acts in the definition of a girl group, yet Billboard included Salt'n'Pepa in their list of girl groups, so according to one reliable source they are a girl group. Which then begs the question, why doesn't it include a rock group like the Bangles or a country group like the (Dixie) Chicks, both of whom have almost certainly sold in excess of 30 million records worldwide? Richard3120 (talk) 12:53, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 May 2023

Change the over 60 million claimed sales of Little mix to over 70 million sales. Cause Little Mix global sales have been updated last year to 72 million sales. 46.244.50.5 (talk) 10:49, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

No changes can be made if reliable sources are not provided to support any new sales figures. Bennv123 (talk) 11:01, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Blackpink sales figures

I added sales figures for Blackpink which included album and single sales officially sourced from Circle, Oricon, and Billboard and was told they were "grossly inflated" without any explanation why. I'd like to open a discussion about this and why those sales are considered "incorrect information." Thanks! Flabshoe1 (talk) 04:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

It looked to me that your sources didn't add up to the reported numbers.

Here's an example: In this edit, you wrote that Kill This Love sold 655,988 units. Your citations to support that number don't add up. Binksternet (talk) 05:06, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

My numbers were right but I missed including the source for the year-end Gaon charts of 2019, which led to the discrepancy. I will list the full list below for the accurate numbers. I do not want to get blocked so please double check them to see whether they are accurate before I re-add with the missing source:

Square Up: 506,775 = 230,656 (2018) + 57,332 (2019) + 60,368 (2020) + 80,657 (2021) + 60,794 (2022) + 16,968 (2023)

Kill This Love: 655,988 = 324,577 (2019) + 98,035 (2020) + 120,001 (2021) + 85,600 (2022) + 27,775 (2023)

How You Like That: 341,789

The Album: 1,590,109 = 1,244,802 (2020) + 18,879 (LP, 2020) + 190,729 (2021) + 100,795 (2022) + 34,904 (2023)

Blackpink 2021 'The Show' Live: 34,906

Born Pink: 2,727,009 = 2,522,941 (2022) + 60,000 (Kit, 2022) + 99,610 (2023) + 44,458 (LP, 2023) Flabshoe1 (talk) 22:05, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Sticking with Kill This Love as an example, your archived links for 2022 and 2023 don't even list the album. Binksternet (talk) 02:45, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

They are not inflated numbers, did you even visited the Circle Chart's articles? Blackpink's total album physical sales in South Korea are 5M and 6M with Japan, most of their singles have sold 2.5M downloads in SK and the total is around 13M without counting their sales in China which are a lot more specifically and in the United States/Worlwide, 20M is a considerable figure and not an inflamation, in fact its way less than what is expected from them, if we count and calculate their sales and certifications it should be more than 20 Million, their edit was filled only with reliable sources from confirmed associations, there was not excusable reason to revert it, you simply didn't agree with it and decided to remove it, and that's not what WP is about, that's disruptive and causing edit warring. Lightlylove (talk) 18:21, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Little Mix sales at 75 million

As of July 2023, Warner Music (Leigh Anne's solo label) reports Little Mix sales at 75 million. Could it be updated accordingly? [1]https://www.billboard.com/music/pop/little-mix-leigh-anne-solo-single-dont-say-love-stream-1235356298/amp/ OmoiLovegood (talk) 17:58, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Little Mix surpassed 75 million ww sales according to Warner Music via Billboard

Little Mix surpassed 75 million ww sales

"Career record sales top 75 million, and the act have accumulated over 15 billion streams, according to Warner Music" - Warner Music via Billboard

https://www.billboard.com/music/pop/little-mix-leigh-anne-solo-single-dont-say-love-stream-1235356298/amp/ Itsmemavis (talk) 05:55, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2023

The page states that Little Mix is the #11 best selling girl group (I believe). However, Billboard confirmed in this article (https://www.billboard.com/music/pop/little-mix-leigh-anne-solo-single-dont-say-love-stream-1235356298/amp/) that Little Mix has topped over 75 million albums sold and is currently the #2 best-selling girl group after the Spice Girls. 2600:6C56:6000:3C1E:EC09:78:7D88:AD2D (talk) 01:41, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: As this topic has been disputed multiple times in previous discussions (see archives) and also caused WP:EDITWAR previously, please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 12:52, 11 August 2023 (UTC)