Talk:List of French monarchs/Archive 7

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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No reason to go around removing infoboxes, honestly. And the map is only for a portion of the history; other than the Merovingians in the family tree, it's a much more comprehensive overview. Altanner1991 (talk) 06:01, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Our messages crossed. There is a reason, and I gave it. To repeat: Drop infobox. This article isn't the type to be easily encapsulated in an Infobox. From a millenium and a half of history, we end up with, 'first', 'last', the 'residences' (?), and the 'pretenders' (??). Much better without it. Clearly, you disagree. That's fine, that's what this page is for. You made a WP:BOLD edit and got reverted; that's normal. What's not normal, is re-reverting to insist on your version. Please don't do that. Please discuss instead, and gain consensus for your view of things from other editors, before restoring your bold edit. Thanks. Mathglot (talk) 06:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

*I* was the one that removed the infobox, you duck! I can self-revert if I want to. Altanner1991 (talk) 06:33, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I have NPOV issues with your edits. Altanner1991 (talk) 06:35, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Why don't you want the infobox? Because it's too helpful. Altanner1991 (talk) 06:40, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

The infobox bears none of the qualities of the essay called WP:DISINFOBOX and saying WP:IDONTLIKEIT doesn't cut it. Altanner1991 (talk) 08:16, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lead image

(edit conflict)What should the lead image be? Since February 2021 it's been the map of the Verdun treaty, until just recently when it was replaced by the coat of arms in an Infobox. I've reinstated the map for now, as the Infobox really didn't do a good job of summarizing the article; given the topic, I don't think any Infobox could, it's too diverse.

The map of the Verdun treaty tri-partite division is at least legible and not too busy, and can be taken in at a glance. It's not ideal, because it doesn't depict monarchs directly, although it sets the stage for all the monarchs to come; but it's hard to capture over a millennium of monarchy and monarchs in a single image. What about an allegory? something like File:Louis XVIII relevant la France.jpg, or File:Généalogie des Bourbons (Sylvain Bonnet, 1688).jpg. I don't think that would be ideal, either; maybe there just isn't a good image available. Perhaps we could construct a collage of four to six of the most important monarchs spanning the centuries; that might work better than anything else that occurs to me at the moment. Mathglot (talk) 06:18, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Excuse me. Do not remove infoboxes. That is incredibly rude. Altanner1991 (talk) 06:32, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

There should be a rule against removing infoboxes. You prick! Altanner1991 (talk) 06:41, 18 August 2022 (UTC); edited 09:13, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh, seriously. Altanner, you need to calm down, and you should strikeout the attacks above. See my warning on your page. Bishonen | tålk 07:25, 18 August 2022 (UTC).

l to r, top to bottom: Charlemagne, Hugh Capet, Louis IX, Francis I, Henry IV, Louis XIV, Louis XVI, Napoleon I, Napoleon III

(edit conflict) @Altanner1991: I'm going to ignore your comments for the moment, and carry on with the topic of this section. I've been thinking about how to get a representative image for the article, and I think a collage could work. What do you think of this one? It's pretty representative, not too small, and hits some of the high points of French monarchy. I think this might work as a lead image. Mathglot (talk) 07:30, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Leave. The infobox. Alone. Altanner1991 (talk) 07:50, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

We don't have space for that collage; there are enough images of monarchs. Altanner1991 (talk) 08:22, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

We do have space for it, right at the top, I'll show you. And it complies with WP:LEADIMAGE, so I think it's a good choice. Mathglot (talk) 08:29, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

It was just a way to remove a beautiful infobox. Altanner1991 (talk) 08:32, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Okay, um, I don't know how to respond to that. Might need to seek assistance. Mathglot (talk) 08:46, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh yeah you can get assistance. Altanner1991 (talk) 08:51, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

The collage is good, though. Thank you for that. :) Altanner1991 (talk) 08:52, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

@Srnec: noticed your recent edit at the article. Not sure if you meant to remove the collage image from the lead as well; it was present in the previous version (as amended by Altanner) and you didn't say anything about it in the edit summary. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 18:08, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Since I posted that, I just noticed that Altanner1991 has been blocked (unrelated reasons) so I probably won't make any edits at the article relating to any content dispute I've had with them until they are back. However, Altanner and I are in agreement about the collage based on their comment above, and their minor adjustment of the collage at the article, so I'm just wondering if you object to it at all. If not, I'll restore the collage, as that is not a point of dispute between Altanner and me. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 18:55, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mathglot You can make whatever edits you want; I support your collage and other contributions as well. Best regards, Altanner1991 (talk) 03:49, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Map of France at the time of the Treaty of Verdun

It can be said that any map can be placed in any stage of the chronology, so I am not sure why that map would be highlighted per WP:BALANCE. Perhaps some feel it is sufficiently more important than other stages in French history, but I disagree; I feel it is no more noteworthy than the map of France during Napoleon's time or perhaps the Hundred Years War, and so it would not be "balanced" to only have that map. Regards, Altanner1991 (talk) 03:46, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

There's something to be said for that. But rather than remove that one, I'd rather put it back, and add several more maps to the article at different points of the monarchy, showing the evolution of territory and nomenclature, and place them at appropriate points in the article. That way, we wouldn't have just one, but several, including the cases you mentioned, and maybe more besides. The tables are unnecessarily wide, and could be easily trimmed to make room for them by narrowing the extra-wide columns, without removing any text. Mathglot (talk) 06:10, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I am okay with having multiple maps across the article, but I am not okay with only having the Treaty of Verdun, because it does not fulfill WP:BALANCE. Altanner1991 (talk) 08:52, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

@Altanner1991: do you have any time to look into obtaining additional maps that we could use at the article? Because I'm busy on some other projects just now and can't get to it right away. Are you familiar with Wikimedia Commons? This is the common location where all images, maps, and photos are stored, and can be used by Wikipedias in any language. You might try starting in Commons category c:Category:Maps of the history of France, and try to navigate the images and the subcategories, and see what you can find that would help improve the article. If you have questions on how to navigate or use Commons, please post your question at c:Commons:Help desk. You can ask me on my Talk page if you wish, but the folks at Commons will know more than I do. What would *really* be ideal, is an animated gif showing the evolution of France during the millenium covered in the article, if such exists. That could be placed at the top, with still images of maps interspersed in the appropriate sections throughout the article. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 09:06, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I am also short on time, but maybe someone else will do it. Altanner1991 (talk) 09:13, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

The way I see it: Treaty of Verdun doesn't show in any other language edition of Wikipedia that I have seen (France includes Clovis I for French/France). The statement in this article for English has been contested not just by me but also many other people. It also only occupies a single sentenced paragraph in the introduction. Therefore giving the image to the Treaty of Verdun is not fair to the NPOV of this article. Feel free to give your opinion as well; I would like to hear the views of other people. Regards, Altanner1991 (talk) 12:36, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

We don't need a map or the college images. Restore the previous infobox. GoodDay (talk) 13:55, 19 August 2022 (UTC)