Talk:Krasniqi

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Requested move 21 February 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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• Krasniq → Krasniqi
• Krasniqi → Krasniqi (surname)

– 1)Krasniq is an indefinite form and Krasniqi is the definite form in Albanian. For consistency reasons I propose to rename to the definite form as all other articles about tribes use the form in definite Albanian: Hoti instead of Hot, Gruda instead of Grudë, Triepshi in stead of Triepsh/Triesh, Koja e Kuçit instead of Kojë etc. 2)Definite forms as in all other cases are used more frequently in English. In this case, even more frequently. For example, if you search the phrase "Krasniq tribe" - used on this wiki article - on Google Books it yields zero results. On the other hand, "Krasniqi tribe" is frequent and is also the preferred term in specialized bibliography in 21st century. In fact, even the bibliography of this article doesn't use Krasniq but Krasniqja tribe. 3)A minor point. Krasniqi and Krasniqja are not referring to the same thing. Krasniq(i) is the fis/tribe name and Krasniqe/Krasniqja is the geographical region name after the tribe. Maleschreiber (talk) 15:43, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: This move request is malformed in its present state since Krasniqi is not a redirect. @Maleschreiber: Are you claiming that the context currently at Krasniq is the primary topic for the term "Krasniqi"? If so, then the content at Krasniqi needs to be moved, probably to Krasniqi (surname). Is that what you are proposing? Steel1943 (talk) 17:00, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Krasniqi should be moved to Krasniqi (surname) as in the case of Hoti (surname).--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:13, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the fix, Paine! Steel1943 (talk) 18:53, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Piece o' cake – upside down, Steelman! PI Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 19:21, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. BegbertBiggs (talk) 22:59, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Robert Elsie, Serbian historiography, the Catholic church and the Nikaj fis

1)Robert Elsie writes that the krasniqja were a fis i.e. a community that is aware of common blood ties and of a common history reaching back to one male ancestor That is not true (as for most other tribes, Elsie has mixed up his bibliography). Krasniqi does intermarry within Krasniqi, because it is not composed of the same patrilineal ancestry. A part of Krasniqi that gave its name to that tribe is already settled there in the late 15th and the early 16th century. The other part is the Kolmekshaj brotherhoods that share the same origin with Nikaj-Mërtur intermarry with the other brotherhoods of Krasniqi, but they don't intermarry with Nikaj. The bibliography I used to verify this (apart from actual, on the field, knowledge of the area) is the same specialized bibliography that R. Elsie supposedly himself used: Dodë Progni (2003), Nikaj-Merturi: vështrim historik [Nikaj-Mërturi: An historical account]. A part of that book is also online on the website of Nikaj-Mërturi.

2) The sentence According to mythology, the Krasniqi descend from a Kolë Mekshi,[13] a brother to the founders of the Serb (Slavic) tribes of Vasojevići, Piperi, Ozrinići and the Albanian tribe of Hoti, respectively. totally mixes up two very different things. The one has to do with a story Johan Georg von Hahn recorded by a Catholic priest in Shkodra in 1850 (that is actually in Elsie's book that is quoted!) about a Krasto who was a brother to a Vaso, Pipo, Ozro, Otto. Also, in other articles I've avoided writing anything about ethnicity that isn't in the story itself, which should be carefully attributed to the Catholic priest Gabriel who only has to say about the supposed common ancestor that he must have been a Catholic Albanian. But that's just a story by a Catholic priest. In this article everything is mixed up together and makes no sense.

This story also has nothing to with Kolë Mekshi, an actual historical figure who settled in Krasniqi and formed the Kolmekshaj brotherhoods in the late 16th century. He isn't even mentioned in that story and yet somebody on wikipedia decided to mix those two stories and create a new one.

3)The sentence According to Serbian sources the tribe was originally Serbian (Slavic), Orthodox, and had by 1692, during Ottoman atrocities, converted into Islam, after which it became Albanianized. has to go in its entirety. Competing claims about a series of events about which the modern world has no archival or historical information, can be written in a number of ways. Thus, if there were no archival records about Krasniqi's religion, language etc. there could be competing claims with careful attribution of "who said what". But bibliography, actual memoirs of people who lived through that period, archival records etc. etc. all in the most explicit of ways show one thing: Krasniqi was a Catholic Albanian tribe as all its brotherhoods were Catholic Albanians. The Serb army officer can't didn't even know that Krasniqi are from different stems, so they just lumped them all together as Orthodox Slavic Albanianized Muslims.

In the article, a sentence begins as The name was recorded in 1634 as Crastenigeia . This fact was recorded by Catholic bishop Gjergj Bardhi who also writes in this parish I presided mass and baptized 180 believers. There are even articles on wikipedia about Catholic bishops of 18th/19th centuries from this tribe (Matej Krasniqi, Gaspër Krasniqi). I will write all of this in the article, but then it makes no sense to have actual historical material and throw in there something like but the Serbian X Y professor wrote that they were Orthodox who were made Muslims and then Albanians. Claims are tested by historical reality, if they fail to confirm actual history, they can't "compete" with reality as just another equally valid hypothesis.

UPDATE: The Serbian sources are two books in 1907 by a Serbian army officer and in 1912 by another Serbian writer who was trying to legitimize Serbia's expansionist policy on the eve of the Balkan Wars. Yeah, off they go. They wouldn't pass as credible bibliography in any context.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:47, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

@Calthinus:@Resnjari: On this last point (3) I'd like your opinion too as we had a similar discussion some time ago on Rrajcë.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:53, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber:, Serb sources (Nikola Čulić, 1907; Kosto Kulišić, 1912) are from early last century. They should be removed as per WP:AGEMATTERS. Other sources that should go are Baerlein (1922), the book is a travelogue, not WP:RS. Unless Baerlein has been cited in WP:SECONDARY, i.e a scholar has looked at what he said and deemed it of relevance, then it can go back in and attributed to a scholarly work. Maybe there is something out there in terms of sources that could substitute that source for the sentence which is attributed to him. Another source that ought to go is Vaso Čubrilović, a controversial figure to say the least. The content of that sentence could be substituted with probably Elsie or some other scholar as a source who talks about Krasniqi claiming common descent with other non Albanian tribes.Resnjari (talk) 04:52, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber: thanks for catching this. Some things. One I think Rrajce is a bit different, as the Bulgarian view in that case is from a source that has been described positively by modern sources, and Ylli-Steinke, already on the page, doesn't actually contradict it, as no one alive in 1899 was alive in 2008 when the two visited. On the other hand there is a long tradition of late 19th/early 20th century Serbian ethnographers with CoI ties to the state which is not the case for the Bulgarians. Other points:

1) Elsie... is often wrong. He's (*was) a nice cheery mannered Western Anglo-Saxon professor who assumes the best and takes the high road in Balkan spats. Which is sometimes naive. RS but not always to be relied on exclusively.

2) To be fair the Serbian side here, Krasniqi... looks like a Slavic origin name. See krasna -- it's a common Slavic placename element, meaning "red". Phonologically, anyways, native Albanian words (like German etc) tend to avoid s + consonant clusters, and usually makes them into Sh (i.e. Shllaku, Skrapar, Shkumbin, Skodra > Shkoder, shn/shnj in Lushnja, etc.); wherever there is /s/ + consonant in Albania, and it is not a new placename, foreign origins are likely. That's excluding some cases where it is a formation with the prefix s. Stegopull is likely Greek, Skender place/person names are from Turkish for "Alexander", Stravaj/Stranik/etc are probably Slavic, and Kastrati is Medieval Latin from castrum and ditto Malla/Gjiro/etc+kaster (cf early loaned Latin keshtjelle etc-- English has the same thing with caster vs. chester/cester placenames). But Slavic name does not equal Slavic origins, otherwise most Romanians historically would all be Slavs (i.e. Vlad Tepes i.e. Dracula is a Vladimir and his cousin was Vladislav) -- which is obviously false.

3) Agree with Resnjari that Cubrilovic, Culic, Kulisic, and Baerlein should all be removed, if you haven't already done so.

4) Obviously there are modern Krasniqi Albanians who are Catholic, i.e. the academic Mark Krasniqi. Who are not converts from Islam or Orthodoxy.

5) ... but we do need an RS saying as much. Perhaps Mark Krasniqi himself may have written on it -- he is an ethnographer who deals specifically with issues of assimilation and ethnic origin, and is himself a Krasniqi Catholic. --Calthinus (talk) 15:31, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

The word itself is of Slavic origin - no doubt. There's really nobody in the bibliography which I'm using that says the opposite and Selami Pulaha for example is also putting forward some crucial questions as to how this process played out where you have a small village named Hrasto in 1485 with ten households, inhabited by Catholic Albanians, one of whom is actually a priest. Pulaha says that this area had been for more than 180+ years part of a Slavic state/cultural domain, so it's only natural that toponyms appear in Slavic.

From the bibliography I'm using Pulaha-Progni etc.: they say that it's probably related to "oak"-"hrasto". The last version of my summary of the bibliography in the article: The name Kastër and its variants correspond to a settlement that appears in the Decani chrysobulls of 1330 as Krastavljane and in the defter of the sanjak of Scutari in 1485 as Hrasto. Its etymology probably comes from the Slavic word hrasto (oak).his village had ten households and was headed by Petri, son of Gjonima. One of the household heads, Nika Gjergj Bushati was related to the Bushati fis. Villages that later were part of Krasniqi that appear in the defter of 1485 are Shoshan (20 households) and Dragobia (six households). These villages were not part of the same community or the same administrative unit as other tribes of northern Albania and Montenegro like Hoti or Piperi which were in the process of their final formation at that time. It is also unclear what the relation of these settlements is to the first historical ancestor of Krasniqi who lived about 70 years later.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:49, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm unaware of any h>k in Albanian (h > f in Gheg, yes (wiktionary on castrum/kaster: [[1]]). Other sources: the kastrati-castrum connection was proposed by Durham [[2]], and maintained by Elsie [[3]]. Mulaku specifically analyzes Kastrati as castrum + the Albanian suffix at [[4]]. See also Berzhita [[5]]. For Krasniqi, perhaps hrasto, but note Slavic folk etymologizing however -- see Roman era Ulpiana > Lipjan where it is analysed as if it came from lipa. --Calthinus (talk) 16:44, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Here is a source that lists Krasniq and Krasniç as "Albanian Christian" surnames in the 15th century Ottoman defters: [[6]]. Unsure if I'd be comfortable relying on Rezha tho. --Calthinus (talk) 16:51, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Can you resend that link? It leads me to a 404 error page. The village's 10 households were definitely Albanian Catholics and even had a priest-prifti not pop like the Orthodox villages. So what you're saying is that the Kaster name shouldn't be linked directly to the Krasto village toponymy in the article?--Maleschreiber (talk) 10:42, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Maleschreiber which link? --Calthinus (talk) 00:35, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Calthinus Registration of Settlements and Albanian Population of Kosovo according to the Ottoman defter of XV century.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:38, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Bensola97: I saw in the edit history that you had some concerns about the article. Maybe you'd be interested in the discussion we're having on providing better bibliography. Do you have any bibliography? What do you think of the comments so far and the way the article is being reworked?--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:37, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Origin

Well, @Alltan: the name is infact of Slavic Origin, deriving from Hrasto. Also what is the etymology of Mekshi?Surix321 (talk) 20:56, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but you'll need some WP:Extraordinary for such claims.-- Bes-ARTTalk 21:03, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The name Krasniqi is the name of a small village which pre-existed in the area before the descendants of Kol Mekshi (meksh is a type of horse in Albanian, metaphorically "young & bold") settled there. The actual fis name of the Krasniqi is Mekshi and they're related to the Nikaj. They come from a very common Albanian lineage, which everyone can look up on relevant projects. Nobody would even suggest today a non-Albanian origin for this community. --Maleschreiber (talk) 21:06, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Vasojevici do not have an albanian subclade as well yet they're regarded as of Albanian origin... Surix321 (talk) 21:08, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't necessarily agree with such a thing, although we're not discussing such subjects but what reliable sources discuss. --Maleschreiber (talk) 22:54, 14 June 2022 (UTC)