Talk:Kaurna

Jultiwira

"The Jultiwira (stringy bark forests)" should "Jultiwira" be capitilised, and for that matter italicised?SauliH 13:41, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd say not. Donama 06:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

History of Adelaide or History of South Australia?

Should the category simply be History of South Australia, since Adelaide was just a little corner of Kaurna territory? Donama 06:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Coatracking

I've deleted a lot of duplicated and WP:COATRACK Kaurna references from a variety of Adelaide place articles ([1], [2], [3] and others). In many cases the article even explicitly stated that no specific Kaurna inhabitation had been recorded, but went on to give a basic history of the Kaurna anyway ([4]). In my view this is not appropriate. I'd propose that articles for which Kaurna inhabitation can be verified have a one or two line statement to that effect, linking to Kaurna. Articles with more extensive verifiable material (specific to the place) may have a more detailed Kaurna history. This article should be improved to GA rather than sticking Kaurna references into other articles. I'll get it started by merging the verifiable deleted content into this article. -Yeti Hunter (talk) 23:31, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Evidence of "Kaurna"?

Dear YH, Yeti Hunter (talk) etal As YH is particularly keen to undo my contributions, I'm now asking, what real evidence, sources have got to prove that "Kaurna" ever existed other than that essentially created, perpetrated, perpetuated, posterity published, popularised 1920s-1974 by SA Museum's Ethnographer Norman Tindale's Tribes Map/s? Matthew (talk) 07:50, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Have you tried looking here? --Yeti Hunter (talk) 13:59, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Your mind's logic is most amusingly patronising YH, yes, of course. The question remains then, have you? What, serious evidence have you seen & please quote, that Tindale's Tribes so called ['KAURNA] ever existed other than in Tindale's SA Museum's Ethnographic mind from History of the name, "The term 'Kaurna' was first recorded by Missionary Surgeon Dr William Wyatt (1879: 24) for 'Encounter Bay Bob's Tribe'"? You're so quick to judge, undo my contributions but I've yet to see some serious sources other than Ramindjeri? eg Rob Amery, 2000 "WARRABARNA KAURNA" Chapter One, p4, 'Encounter Bay Bob'? "An essential political aspect of [Governor] Gawler’s plan was a tractable native community. He sought to explain to the Aborigines his policy of protection from white abuse and eventual assimilation. A Ramindjeri interpreter, "Encounter Bay Bob", was employed." PIONEERING SPIRIT Eliza Arbuckle Advertiser – Adelaide; Saturday January 13, 1990. I go so far as to say that we wikiEditors have an underlying duty of care to ensure that an Article being collected, collated chronologically about Encounter Bay Bob eg "Encounter Bay Bob, a local Aborigine, made a sensational report that the dead bodies of ten white men and five women and some children had been found. Search parties were sent out and finally came upon a scene which was described as simply horrible." Adelaide - Gaols, Reformatories and the Law Matthew (talk) 15:09, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Another example other that Linquist Dr Rob Amery's 2000 attempt to camouflage what's actually happened is, Mary-Anne Gale and Syd Sparrow1 "Bringing the Language home: the Ngarrindjeri dictionary project""The first list of Ngarrindjeri words to be systematically entered into the database was in fact the first comprehensive list of Ngarrindjeri words ever recorded. These were collected in the early 1840s by Heinrich A. E. Meyer, a German missionary to the Aboriginal people of the Encounter Bay region. Meyer worked with people such as Encounter Bay Bob who spoke the Ramindjeri (or Raminyeri) dialect of the Ngarrindjeri language. Meyer published his wordlist of about 1750 words (from Raminyeri to English) in 1843. His words are listed with the code M in the database. Meyer also provided many sample sentences demonstrating the contextualised use of words, plus a remarkably insightful grammar which was invaluable in writing the learners’ guide 165 years later." If we really read between these lines and actually speak for example with Ramindjeri Sovereign Spokesman Karno Walker, more is actually revealed about how he and other Ramindjeri have not been interviewed ... Karno contended pers comm 2010 that the so called "Taplin touched" "Ngarrindjeri" are subject to Ramindjeri something that needs to be much more actively formally researched, published. Realising of course that wikipedia is not for original research, I simply flag that issue here and continue to question the uses (abuses?) of those SA Museum's Anthropology Dept's names, "Ngarrindjeri" & "Kaurna". Do those currently culturally dominate linguistic descriptions act as Emperors with no clothes!? Matthew (talk) 16:42, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Are you seriously citing Warrabarna Kaurna to demonstrate that the Kaurna do not exist? My point above is that the article is already quite adequately sourced, and if you are proposing to rewrite South Australian history, then you'll need a set of pretty amazing sources per WP:BURDEN (and WP:REDFLAG). Karno Walker is an activist, and unlikely to be considered a reliable source, certainly not if all you've got is pers comm. If indeed you do find reliable sources for what you propose, you are welcome to make such changes yourself. You are not welcome to demand that other editors do so for you. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 00:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your response YH, I fail to see where I've demanded anything of you however. Only asked questions, specifically, in reply to yours above? Obviously being 1/2 a continent away I'm unable to as easily access hardcopy information as yourself being there nearer Adelaide CBD. I'm sorry that your mind seems to think these thoughts which clearly aren't accurate. Matthew (talk) 07:21, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Emperors wearing no clothes!?

YH, I wonder what goes on in your mind when you asked me above, "Are you seriously citing Warrabarna Kaurna to demonstrate that the Kaurna do not exist?" When I simply asked you in response to your question which you used to answer my question above, what real evidence, sources have got to prove that "Kaurna" ever existed other than that essentially created, perpetrated, perpetuated, posterity published, popularised 1920s-1974 by SA Museum's Ethnographer Norman Tindale's Tribes Map/s? in other words, you didn't really seriously answer my question in good faith, why?

In a more considered response to your subsequent closed question, "Are you seriously citing Warrabarna Kaurna to demonstrate that the Kaurna do not exist?" The easy answer is yes. Specifically I again challenge the way/s, point of view in which Dr Amery presented his data in Rob Amery, 2000 "WARRABARNA KAURNA" Chapter One, pp3-4.

As wikiEditors know, "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it.

"Neutral point of view" is one of Wikipedia's three core content policies. The other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research". These three core policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles. Because these policies work in harmony, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three. The principles upon which this policy is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus."

For example, note as has Ramindjeri Sovereign Spokesman Karno Walker whom you've dismissed as an activist, despite Karno's 16 Dec 2009, clear publicly elected mandate how (Berndt & Berndt, 1993: 312) clearly published, Karloan's knowledge was most detailed in relation to his own dialectal unit, Yaraldi .... The material is relatively complete for all the Kukabrak [Ngarrindjeri] dialectal units, except for the Wakend and Ramindjeri. [NOTING TOO THAT KUKABRAK is clearly placed before that more recent "Taplin touched" since 1998 Crown Registered Native Title legal fiction invention, "NGARRINDJERI".]

What I've not yet seen is (Amery, 1998b) where Rob published, "the southern limits of Kaurna territory, on the basis of linguistic and historical evidence, and suggest that Kaurna territory may have extended as far eastward as Encounter Bay and that the occupation of Encounter Bay by the Ramindjeri in the late 1830s may have been a response to the activities of whalers in the area. It would appear that the 'Encounter Bay' people referred to by Colonel Light and other members of his party at Rapid Bay in 1836 were Kaurna speakers."

My genuine concern YH is that as it is Linguist Dr Rob Amery who suggests when Ramindjeri Sovereign Spokesman, Karno Walker clearly stated that Karno's apical ancestor "Princess" Con (daughter of "King" Condoy who Karno said met both Matthew Flinders and Nicholas Baudin at "Encounter Bay") aka Sally m William Walker, who walked, worked with Col William Light, interpreting, surveying what was to become "Adelaide", that there is a clearly concerning comprehension all based on Tindale's Tribal Map/s 1920s-1974 and Amery's posterity published, popularised works since.

What's concerning me here is that multiple million$, sometimes misspent money$ have been by SAGov over those years since 1999. See Lucas accuses Kaurna group of fraud from Question: Kaurna organisation & Matter of Interest: Kaurna organisation.

Equally interesting to also note,

The Onkaparinga

In 1992, following disputes about building a marina at Sellicks Beach, ["Uncle" "Yerloburka"] Lewis O'Brien, a Kaurna Aborigine, and [another "Kaurna" claiming Kudnarto cousin also descended from Kudnarto's son Tim Adams wife Bessie Reeves from Clarendon] ["Nangkiburka"] G[eorgina "Yamba"] Williams claimed that the mouth of the Onkaparinga River was an Aboriginal women's site. They suggested that a phrase used by German scholars Teichelmann and Schurmann in their 1840 dictionary of the Kaurna language was evidence that "the Kaurna people talked about body parts". They concluded that Aborigines could identify the internal sexual organs of women and had noted their similarity to the Onkaparinga estuary.9

The Kaurna (Adelaide Plains) Aborigines are an entirely separate group from the Ngarrindjeri, but this was probably the start of "women's business" at Hindmarsh Island. At a gathering of leading men in the LMAHC, Chairman Victor Wilson showed Secretary Doug Milera an aerial photograph of Hindmarsh Island and said, "This is a woman, it's a creation of the Ngarrindjeri people and I'm going to Doreen Kartinyeri to explain it and to find out about it".10 Wilson and Milera had been involved in the Onkaparinga dispute and were able to apply the vagina/river mouth analogy to the Murray mouth and Hindmarsh Island.

The article was in one important respect, however, damaging to later claims about "women's business" at Hindmarsh Island, since the beliefs asserted about the Onkaparinga were not regarded as secret. The maps of the Onkaparinga estuary and mouth, provided by courtesy of the Adelaide Street Directory and the South Australian Education Department, were of the very same kind which opponents of the bridge claimed later would be a sacrilege to display in public, as well as threatening to Ngarrindjeri women, physically and spiritually. Furthermore, any such belief associated with Hindmarsh Island would have been used openly by opponents of the Bridge long before June, 1994, just as Mr O'Brien did during the Onkaparinga dispute.

The bottomline for me at least at this time YH is that a lot of what you've supported being posterity published so far has been from a select group of people who clearly are in dispute over decades with Ramindjeri and I'm concerned that this isn't at all adequately expressed by yourself and other wikiEditors in that ways in which for me at least, isn't NPOV eg I see "suggest", "would appear" and "may have", the latter twice quoted from (Amery, 1998b) above so I have to ask you YH as a part of critical peer review, where then is Dr Amery's thus your or other "Kaurna" wikiEditors "Verifiability" thus WP:BURDEN other than relatively recent, potentially biased publications over this last century? Matthew (talk) 16:48, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

tl;dr. I repeat: you are welcome to add any verifiable information published in reliable secondary sources to the article.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 05:26, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, ironic then to read from tl;dr, "As a label, it is sometimes used as a tactic to thwart the kinds of discussion which are essential in collaborative editing." As I've questioned your lack of wikiEditing good faith before I see your behaviours are true to form again ... Matthew (talk) 14:39, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Maintain civility

Sometimes a person might feel that a reader's decision to pointedly mention this essay during a discussion is dismissive and rude. Therefore, courteous editors might, as an alternative to citing WP:TLDR, create a section on the longwinded editor's talk page and politely ask them to write more concisely.

A common mis-citation of this essay is to ignore the reasoned and actually quite clear arguments and requests for response presented by an unnecessarily wordy editor with a flippant "TL;DR" in an attempt to discredit and refuse to address their strongly-presented ideas and/or their criticism of one's own position. This is a four-fold fallacy: ad hominem, appeal to ridicule, thought-terminating cliché, and simple failure to actually engage in the debate because one is supposedly too pressed for time to bother, the inverted version of proof by verbosity.

Interesting for me to also see YH,

"Make some effort to understand whatever valid ideas the previous author may have been trying (but failing) to communicate, so that you don't just hastily and inadvertently delete valid rough draft material instead of refining it to a better draft. Remember that your own credibility is at stake as well as that of the loquacious writer, because if you're hasty and harsh enough, you could end up earning a reputation for yourself as someone with incompetent reading comprehension. You may know that this is an unfair reputation, but your actions may speciously make it seem true to others." Matthew (talk) 02:42, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Proving my point here, Matthew. This is a lot of talk page block quoting over precisely zero mainspace edits. I don't even know what you're wanting any of us to do. Those sources above all confirm the existence of kaurna, not shed doubt on it. What are you trying to achieve?Yeti Hunter (talk) 04:21, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I for one do not yet see your confirmation. What I am trying to achieve is simply to raise awareness to the fact that there is more going on here between those lines or words than meets our eyes if your mind hasn't yet twigged to that then I see I have a lot more work to do. Sadly being here on Larrakia lands in Darwin. As you too maybe aware, the definition of "Kaurna" is based on only 8 apical ancestors defined by Anthropology Dr [[]]. "The term 'Kaurna' was used by scholars for the Aboriginal people from the Adelaide area from the early 1900s. These people seemed to have been pushed out of Adelaide by the city's development.""SOUTH HENLEY BEACH Aborigines" In so doing, those scholars appear to have seriously, totally ignored Ramindjeri, to the point where today that word, specious, came to mind, "

1. Seemingly well-reasoned or factual, but actually fallacious or insincere; strongly held but false.
2. Having an attractive appearance intended to generate a favorable response; deceptively attractive."

Clearly there needs to be a much more serious independent, investigative inquiry, critical peer review which obviously is beyond the prime directives of original research for wikipedia. Something I am genuinely seeking to achieve through Charles Darwin University, Adelaide & UniSA Linguists but like yourself it seems YH, there's significant resistance or the latter two Unis Linguists maybe simply ignoring my formal requests which result in me having to draft a journal article for publication outlining ASAP. In short, just because so many Caucasian cousins have published that word "Kaurna" doesn't mean that it is necessarily accurate? eg note, first former SA Premier Boyle Finniss' Witness account of "Rapid Bay Capt Pete" defending that River Torrens territorial line that Ramindjeri Sovereign Spokesman Karno Walker maintains is the territorial line for "kornar" in the north, not south as apparently identified by C19th Ramindjeri "Encounter Bay Bob". If this is in actual fact true and yes, I've not yet been in a position to find any independent information here in Darwin to prove otherwise yet, all the more reason that more could, should be done there in Adelaide to seriously make a much more positive difference? Matthew (talk) 12:38, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I understand that Mr Walker's attempt to assert such a territory did not go well, and I have heard nothing of the Federal Court hearing that was supposed to be decided late last year. The dispute is already mentioned both here and at Ramindjeri, which is as far as the reliable sources allow it to be taken at this time.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 13:41, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's the public record at that time, however there has been subsequent Australian Adelaide Federal Court House Hearing Ramindjeri Callover MuseumSA's Anthropology Departments so called "Ngarrindjeri"-"Kaurna" since their respective 1998 & 2000 Native Title Registrations. As I've indicated above, "What I am trying to achieve is simply to raise awareness to the fact that there is more going on here between those lines or words than meets our eyes if your mind hasn't yet twigged to that then I see I have a lot more work to do." Hence if you were as keen to follow up, simply seeking truth, from which justice naturally flows as you are to revert my in good faith contributions YH, maybe our time management, consensus could, would be all the better? Irrespective, truth will out ... Matthew (talk) 15:34, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Well if the "public record" changes, then we can talk.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 15:37, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

"public record" changes

The thing is YH, Tindale's Tribes Map 1920s-1974, changed the public record so it is that posterity published, popularising which seriously needs review, independent investigative inquiry, ie the "public record" changes back, recently dominating paradigm shift?

eg the "Encounter Bay blacks" who I see were described as "Ramindjera" in "The Mail" (Adelaide, SA : 1912 - 1954), Saturday 18 December 1926, Page 8 of 40

Not only was that a clear paradigm shift in the "public record" but more importantly, it is also important to seriously consider the public record since 1837 as Colonial Provincial South Australia was beginning to Government Gazette Victoria Square, Adelaide 23 May, for then Princess Heir presumptive. Historian Dr Rebe Taylor's 2002, "Unearthed" quoting John Bull's 1837 "Onkaparinga and Encounter Bay blacks" ie Ramindjeri moon ceremonial corroboree record of Nat Thomas' reaction.

Also Kaurna Elder Lewis O'Brien's apical ancestral pers comm Jan 2010 claim that his great grandmother, Bessie Reeves was from Clarendon in addition to, "And the Clock Struck Thirteen: The Life and Thoughts of Kaurna Elder Uncle Lewis Yerloburka O'Brien", p54,

"Tim Adams was my great grandfather, the younger son of Kudarto and Tom. Tim was very unfortunate in marriage because he lost three of his four wives to illness. He only ever had children from his second marriage to Bessie Reeves. Little is known of his first wife, but it is believed she was Fanny from Franklin Harbour, near Port Lincoln. His second wife, Bessie Reeves, was said to be from Kingston, but according to my Auntie Glad she was a sister of Ivaritji which means she was Kaurna. Together Tim and Bessie had four children - Lewis, Gertrude, Julia and Arthur (nicknamed 'Bishop'). Unfortunately Bessie died in 1878 during the measles epidemic that hit so many Aboriginal people, leaving Tim with a family of four young children to raise by himself. Two years later in 1880 he married Bessie's sister Esther Reeves, who became a much needed mother to his young children. In Aboriginal society children consider their mother's sisters to be their mother anyway. Much later, in 1907, after Tim had left Poonindie and his third wife, Esther, had passed away in 1901, Tim married Lizzie Sansbury at Point Pearce. Tim died the following year at the age of fifty-six.15" See Brock & Kartinyeri (1989), p. 62 Matthew (talk) 09:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

How does any of that shed doubt on the existence of the Kaurna people?--Yeti Hunter (talk) 15:32, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

South of that River Torrens territorial boundary as defined 1837, by first former SA Premier, former Vice Regal Representative Colonial Province Administrator, previous SA Surveyor General Assistant to Col William Light, Boyle Finniss witnessed account of "Rapid Bay Capt Peter", "captain of the southern hosts, evidently the chosen warrior of his tribe", defending against "The northern blacks" as you may have already read, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:B.T._Finniss ? Ramindjeri do not easily comment on people claiming, identifying as "Kaurna" north of that River Torrens territorial boundary however it is therefore assumed rather than confirmed that those descended from apical ancestors born, bred, from north.

Reiterating,

Etymology

"The early settlers of South Australia referred to the various Kaurna bands of the Adelaide Plains and Fleurieu Peninsula as being separate tribes such as "the Adelaide tribe" (the Kouwandilla band), "the Noarlunga tribe" (the Ngurlonnga band) and the Willunga tribe (the Willangga band) etc. The name Kaurna was not widely used for the language group until popularised by Norman B. Tindale in the 1920s. It most likely derives from the Ramindjeri or Ngarrindjeri word kornar meaning "men" or "people". "Uncle" Lewis O'Brien, a Kaurna Elder during the 1990s, suggested that a more appropriate name for his people might be Meyunna, from the local word for "people", meyu."

I've not yet seen Betty Ross (ed), 1984 Aboriginal and Historic Places around Metropolitan Adelaide and the South Coast Anthropological Society of South Australia Pg 5 yet to read, confirm or otherwise, have you? Maybe I need to contact "Journal | Anthropological Society of South Australia". Clearly all this further emphasises the on-going need for an independent investigative inquiry. Matthew (talk) 16:01, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

References

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