Talk:John Manners-Sutton, 3rd Baron Manners

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Colin Clifford in 'The Asquiths' (John Murray, 2002) states that there was an older daughter, Molly, who died in 1904 aged 17 and that she was the first love of Arthur Melland Asquith. Arthur, known as 'Oc' was the third son of Herbert Henry Asquith, PM from 1908-1916. After distinguished war service Oc married Betty in April 1918. Strangely Molly does not appear in The Peerage but the International Genealogical Index (IGI) gives the birth on 4 December 1886 of a Mary Christine Manners, daughter of John Thomas Manners and Constance Edwina Adeline Fane. IGI also confirms the births of Betty Constance and Angela Margaret Manners on 15 June 1889 and of John Nevile Manners on 6 January 1892. For some reason IGI does not give the county of the children's births but BMD gives the marriage of their parents in 1885 as Bideford, Devon, the birth of Mary Hannah (sic) Manners Wetherby, Yorks, in 1886 (4th qtr), the births of Angela Margaret and Betty Constance in Chelsea in 1889 (3rd qtr) and of John Manners in Calne, Wilts, in 1886 (4th qtr). Robert Cutts, June 2011.

Thanks for the information. If you have the page numbers where these facts are mentioned, we could add them to the article. Clifford appears to qualify as a reliable source. In the meantime, I have altered the sentence to read "...at least three children". I've removed the "(see discussion)" bit from the article because it is not usual to put comments like that in the article. Raising issues on the talk page, as you have done, is a good idea. If you type ~~~~ after your posts, they will be signed and dated with your pseudonym automatically. I will leave a message on your talk page incase you aren't watching this space. Regards Ykraps (talk) 19:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I only occasionally contribute to Wiki and don't know the ropes. I inserted the "(see discussion)" bit to prompt you and fully expected you to remove it. I have the 2003 paperback version of Clifford's book. The last two paragraphs on page 105 are: "Oc was sufficiently invigorated . . . to secure . . . a respectable second . . . at the end of the Hilary term in 1904. <para> That summer Oc's great love, Molly Manners, became ill and died at the age of seventeen while on holiday in India. He was devastated: 'her companionship and friendship and the thought of her meant more than I have ever known before or since,' he was to write in his diary two years later {26}. Another brief reference to Molly is followed by three pages that have been ripped out. There is no doubt he mourned Molly long and deeply." The {26} refers to a note on page 486 that states "Clovelly Papers. Arthur Asquith Sudan Diary 14-9-06. Quoted in Page, p. 9." There are more references to Molly on pp 115-116 and p 118 including ". . . his thoughts turned to Molly's younger sister . . . " on p118. I would be happy to email you all the stuff that's relates to the Manners family. As far as I'm concerned you may delete all of this page when you have noted it. Regards, Robert Cutts, bob@winton.me.uk — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bristol filer (talk • contribs) 22:08, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I found another source for Mary Christine Manners and have added her to the article. She is probably the Molly in Clifford's book (Molly is a nickname for Mary) but I haven't been able to demonstrate that conclusively. Although I have it that Mary died in February '04 and not the summer of '04 as stated by Clifford (?). I believe she is either buried or remembered at Clovelly All Saints Church in Devon, as are Betty and Arthur Asquith.--Ykraps (talk) 18:09, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, as you have probably discovered, Googling "Mary Christine Manners" finds several entries including one about a church dedicated to her memory, one confirming the date of her death as 15 February 1904, one describing her armorial bearings and even one suggesting she had royal blood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.107.218 (talk) 08:36, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

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