Talk:Isan people

Subject of this article

We have to decide on the subject of this article: Is it the specific ethno-regional group of Isan, also known as Lao-Isan or Thai-Lao, or the population of Northeastern Thailand in general (regardless of their ethnicity). As of now, the article seems to lump them together, which I find confusing. Most of the article deals with Isan's majority population who typically have ethnic Lao roots and speak Isan language (a group of Lao dialects or Thai-Lao hybrid language). However, User:Johncdraper has recently added a list of all ethnic groups of Northeastern Thailand. I think this list rather belongs at Isan#Demographics (where a similar list can already been found), because it regards the population of Isan as a whole, rather than the specific ethno-regional group. I strongly doubt that Khmer, Kuy etc. fall under the ethno-regional group as defined by C.F. Keyes. --RJFF (talk) 11:05, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

• Dear RJFF, Thank you for bringing this up. This is indeed a problem, given Isan = Northeast = Northeasterner and that various Thai governments have attempted to erase Lao identity in favour of an ethnoregional identity, except during the Phibun era, when even the regional identities came under attack via a Cultural Mandate. Keyes himself maintained throughout his works that the dominant ethnic group in Isan is the Lao, but he did identify the Khmer and Suai as other group in the Isan ethnoregional identity. In his own words, "Because of the classifications used in all censuses, it is difficult to estimate the exact ethnic composition of the Northeast. However, other than the bilingual Thai-Khmer who live in the southern provinces of the region,1 the Northeast contains no sizeable non-T'ai2 minority." (Keyes, 1967, p. 2). I inserted the table because we now have the data, though imperfect, that Keyes was lacking. What I have also found in researching in the Northeast is that almost all the different ethnic minority communities in the Northeast self-identify as Thai nationally, then Isan regionally, then whatever their local ethnolinguistic community identity is, though standard sociolinguistic effects are in place, i.e., more self-identification in in-group scenarios than out-group scenarios, and differences by age, education, and gender apply. I am putting together a team to rewrite this page based on this self-identification principle, which would stress the Lao are the majority ethnolinguistic community and the dominant 'culture' and would appreciate guidance on this via this Talk page.Johncdraper (talk) 12:18, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Johncdraper: I look forward to your overhaul of the article. It should be clarified to what extent the ethnic minority groups (especially the ones speaking Mon-Khmer) identify with the Isan ethno-regional group—as compared to their own, distinct group identity. Are there any groups living in Northeastern Thailand whose identity is so distinct from the majority population that they do not identify (primarily) as Isan people, or, conversely that they are not accepted by the majority as "true" Isan people? What about the 800,000 Central Thais living in the Northeast: Do they identify as "Isan", too? If indeed all ethnic groups of the Northeast were to be included in the group of "Isan people", it should be made clear that "Thai-Lao", "Lao Isan" etc. are not completely synonymous with "Isan people" but merely a sub-group of the latter (albeit the largest, and culturally dominant one). In that case: Do we need a separate article on Thai-Lao or Lao Isan? And is an article about all people of the Northeast, regardless of their ethnicity, not redundant with Isan#Demographics? --RJFF (talk) 16:00, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

• Dear RJFF, Yes, all valid points, and some of this is going beyond my knowledge of the issue, which is why a team is necessary. Certainly in Khon Kaen, second generation onwards Central Thai colonists identify as Thai, then Isan. Leedom Lefferts has been studying Central Thai pottery colonists in rural areas; I would have to check this applies there. Very few Northeasterners would not identify primarily as Thai and secondarily as Northeasterners in public, though I know some northeastern Sino-Thai who would identify as Chinese diaspora first. It is possible to ask Khmer or Phu Thai or Sino-Thais if they are 'Real' Isan, then clarify what you mean re them being Thai Lao or not, for them to say no, they are Khmer or Phu-Thai. In certain contexts, they might assert this identity first, i.e., at cultural festivals. I know Peter Vail worked with a Khmer nationalist would may have said he was Khmer first, then maybe Thai and Isan after. However, that line of argument leads to all sorts of trouble, like accusations of sedition. The real problem here is going to be reliable, authoritative citations, as so little sociolinguistic work has been done. What has changed is that because of a Lao resurgence over the past 15 years, more younger Lao do now identify as Lao Isan, including educated women, reversing a long trend towards blurring the line and erasing Lao identity started around 1900.Johncdraper (talk) 16:55, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

ethnic Isaan

Isaan is referred to as a region in the northeast, derived from Pali īsāna. People in Isaan in Thailand are referred to as Khon Isaan, which means people from northeastern Thailand. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that they are all of Lao ethnicity. While there is a 'Isaan people' page on Wikipedia, it may be more appropriate to remove or merge this page, and instead include information about all the different ethnic groups on their respective pages such as the Khmer, Kuy, and Lao. It's important to note that there is no such thing as an "ethnic Isaan" people, only Kuy, Khmer, and Laos. It's possible that these groups have fused to create a new ethnicity, but this is a matter of ongoing debate and interpretation. If you have information about how many people of ethnic Lao, Khmer, and Kuy from Isaan there are, please add the numbers to their respective pages. It would be helpful to include information about the various groups such as the Laotian, Khmer, Kuy, Vietnamese, and Chinese in Isaan on their own page.2001:FB1:8B:8A53:CCEE:AAA9:4679:D4F7 (talk) 10:33, 17 February 2023 (UTC)