Talk:Ibn al-Banna' al-Marrakushi

January 2023

@Suratrat: you've been around (using different accounts) long enough to know better than to describe as "vandalism" what clearly is not. You also know, as well as I do, that there was no such thing as Moroccan, Algerian or Tunisian back then. Maghrebis were simply referred to as either Maghrebis, Muslims, Arabs, etc., with some having the tribes they belonged to or the towns they lived in attached to their name (al-Marrakushi == from Marrakesh). The same goes for birth and death place: to avoid the anachronism, the most appropriate "country"/place would be Almohad Caliphate and Marinid Sultanate (this is in line with how we treat other Maghrebis from the same period). Obviously, you can find sources for all kind of things (even those who were born a 1000 years are described in some sources as Algerians, Tunisians, etc), but it doesn't mean that you have to use them. M.Bitton (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

The only thing I know is that you're removing referenced content which is vandalism. Stick to what the reliable sources in the article state. -Suratrat (talk) 15:03, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Since you insist on describing it as "vandalism" and started an edit war, I don't really know what else to say to you. M.Bitton (talk) 15:09, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

It is vandalism and you're really removing sourced content from the article. -Suratrat (talk) 15:11, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Actually there was no Morocco at the time of al-Marrakushi's birth or death. It appears the Almohad Caliphate was in power when al-Marrakushi was born and the Marinid Sultanate was in power when he died. Is this not historically accurate? --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:47, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

The problem of when the Moroccan state was founded is still debated in historical circles. There are usually maximalists (the historians who say that it started in the Idrisid era) and minimalists (the ones who say that it started in the Saadid era) but this article is not about this. The only thing we should do is present what's in reliable sources which is that he was a "Moroccan scholar/polymath" (Encyclopaedia of Islam, 3rd ed. , Encyclopaedia of Islam, 2nd ed.) and that he was born in "Morocco" (The Biographical Encyclopedia of Astronomers Encyclopaedia of the History of Science, Technology, and Medicine in Non-Western Cultures p:1088) -Suratrat (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Nonsense! The Almoravids invaded what we now call Morocco and so did the Marinids. What would make these invaders Moroccans or explain the fictitious continuation of a so-called state is anyone's guess. In any case, you didn't answer the question. M.Bitton (talk) 16:03, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Nonsense! The Almoravids invaded what we now call Morocco and so did the Marinids. What would make these invaders Moroccans or explain the fictitious continuation of a so-called state is anyone's guess. In any case, you didn't answer the question.

You're doing it again, speculating about the existence of Morocco with some Bokpasien arguments and your fringe theory that Morocco didn't exist before the 20th century while all historians contradict you. You already had that discussion with Walrasiad and it didn't go anywhere.

You're still not giving any reasons to justify removing the content in this article and you're just POV pushing. All these specialized reliable sources mention him as a Moroccan and the place where he was born as Morocco:

"...a versatile Moroccan scholar whose reputation rests mainly on his knowledge of mathematics, astronomy, astrology and occult sciences." Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition

"....was a Moroccan polymath best known for his textbooks on mathematics and astronomy." Encyclopaedia of Islam, THREE

"The Moroccan Ibn al-Banna' (1256-1321)" General history of Africa, abridged edition v. 4, p:28

"Ibn al-Banna' was born in Marrakesh, Morocco on 29 December 1256....." Encyclopaedia of the History of Science, Technology, and Medicine in Non-Western Cultures p:1088

"Marrakech, (Morocco)" The Biographical Encyclopedia of Astronomers

Why should we omit the fact that he was a Moroccan scholar/polymath and that most of reliable sources represent him as such? -Suratrat (talk) 17:39, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

As I already explained: there was no such a thing as Morocco or Moroccan back then. That's a fact!

I see no reason to introduce anachronism into the article or treat him differently from the other Maghrebis of the same period.

Your WP:CANVASSING and persistent personal attacks have been duly noted. If this continues, you'll take a trip to ANI. M.Bitton (talk) 17:48, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

As I already explained: there was no such a thing as Morocco or Moroccan back then. That's a fact!

Yes your theory that it started existing in the 20th century is the real one.

I see no reason to introduce anachronism into the article or treat him differently from the other Maghrebis of the same period.

Again, Are all of these sources unreliable so we shouldn't use them or you just don't like it?

• "...a versatile Moroccan scholar whose reputation rests mainly on his knowledge of mathematics, astronomy, astrology and occult sciences." Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition
• "....was a Moroccan polymath best known for his textbooks on mathematics and astronomy." Encyclopaedia of Islam, THREE
• "The Moroccan Ibn al-Banna' (1256-1321)" General history of Africa, abridged edition v. 4, p:28
• "Ibn al-Banna' was born in Marrakesh, Morocco on 29 December 1256....." 'Encyclopaedia of the History of Science, Technology, and Medicine in Non-Western Cultures' p:1088
• "Marrakech, (Morocco)" The Biographical Encyclopedia of Astronomers

Your WP:CANVASSING and persistent personal attacks have been duly noted.

You figured me out, you caught me red handed. Linking to a semi-retired editor who isn't editing anymore is canvassing, okay. No arguments = start victimizing yourself. -Suratrat (talk) 18:10, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

I'd consider adding "born in Marakish" or "from Marakish" to the lead. A possible alternative is "Maghribi" -- a term used in contemporary sources. For instance, the Maghribi troops and the district of Maghrib mentioned in Tabari's Tarikh in the 9th/10th century[1]. Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 18:28, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

@Wiqi55 Thank you for the suggestion, but that's not what is in the specialized reliable sources. The list of sources I expanded this article with is sufficient! The only thing that anyone who doubts the reliability of these sources needs to do is to contest their validity on WP:RSN. -Suratrat (talk) 18:49, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:RSN doesn't deal with anachronism, we do. Sources describing Augustine of Hippo as Algerian (born in Algeria too) can easily be found, yet we don't use them for the same reason. M.Bitton (talk) 18:57, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

He's mentioned as an Algerian in neo-spiritual and a psychological source. You're comparing reliable secondary/tertiary sources to non-related mentions by non-specialized authors. -Suratrat (talk) 19:10, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

@Wiqi55: Thanks. Your Maghribi suggestion works for me. @Kansas Bear: What do you think of Wiqi55's suggestion? M.Bitton (talk) 18:57, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Works for me. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear: What do you find in this wording unreliable?

"Ibn al‐Bannāʾ al‐Marrākushī (Arabic: ابن البناء المراكشي), full name: Abu'l-Abbas Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Uthman al-Azdi al-Marrakushi (Arabic: أبو العباس أحمد بن محمد بن عثمان الأزدي) (29 December 1256 – 31 July 1321), was a Moroccan polymath who was active as a mathematician, astronomer, Islamic scholar, Sufi and astrologer.[2][3]"

Your concerns are in the lead or infobox? -Suratrat (talk) 19:17, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

• @Suratrat: Morocco didn't exist during the article subject's time, making the claim he was born and died in Morocco an anachronism. You wouldn't claim any of the first muslims were born in Saudi Arabia, would you, so why do you claim that someone who lived long before Morocco existed was Moroccan? - Tom  ✓  | Thomas.W ^talk 19:14, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Thomas.W Italy didn't exist in Columbus' time but we're still calling him "Italian explorer" because of how he's mentioned by reliable sources.-Suratrat (talk) 19:22, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

@Suratrat: Our article about him gives Columbus's place of birth as "Genoa, Republic of Genoa" and his place of death as "Valladolid, Castile", not "Genoa, Italy" and "Valladolid, Spain". - Tom  ✓  | Thomas.W ^talk 19:54, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

@Thomas.W So a compromise would be giving him the nationality (Moroccan) in the lead with the appropriate sources (the two that I used) and leaving the dynasties in the infobox as they are now? @Kansas Bear How this works for you? Restoring the "was a Moroccan polymath who was active as a......" as mentioned the sources and leaving the two dynasties in the infobox as they are? -Suratrat (talk) 20:05, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

There was no such thing as a "Moroccan nationality" back then. In fact, the only thing that differentiated between Maghrebis was their religion (Muslims, Jews, etc.), whether they were Arabs or Berbers and their tribe. M.Bitton (talk) 20:39, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Well the claim that he was a "Maghrebi" is just WP:OR and not based on any reliable sources. The only reliable sources we have here are mentioning him as a Moroccan scholar/polymath. We should stick to what the reliable sources say. -Suratrat (talk) 20:59, 8 January 2023 (UTC)"

It took two seconds to find a reliable source for it. M.Bitton (talk) 21:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC) M.Bitton (talk) 21:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

The same work you referenced is using "Moroccan" in Ibn al-Banna's entry in p:998 ""Moroccan mathematician and astronomer..... Born at Marrakech...studied there and in Fes....". It's not hard to find it, I already used it for the article. -Suratrat (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

This is a serious waste of time. The source was obviously used to dispel your claim that Maghrebi was OR. M.Bitton (talk) 21:19, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

You wanted to dismiss it but made it stronger. Using a cursory mention of the word "Maghribi" is like someone saying in p:100 of an encyclopaedia that "shakespeare was the greatest European poet" then writing later in p:800 in his entry that "William Shakespeare was an English playwright, poet and actor". I worked hard to expand the article, I didn't just search in google for two seconds to find some word that I wanted. That's just cherry-pecking. -Suratrat (talk) 21:32, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Keep repeating that to yourself, I won't be wasting my time following suit. The bottom line is that we won't be describing him as Moroccan for all the reasons that have been highlighted so far. M.Bitton (talk) 22:12, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

@Thomas.W: Thank you for your input. Both Kansas Bear and I agree with Wiqi55's suggestion of adding Maghrebi to the lead. What are your thought? M.Bitton (talk) 20:39, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

AFAIK (and I should point out that I'm not an expert on the Maghreb...) "Maghrebi" refers to a Muslim Berber, and while there's no doubt about him being Muslim, do we know he was a Berber? - Tom  ✓  | Thomas.W ^talk 20:51, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

@Thomas.W: For what it's worth: Maghrebi refers to anyone from the Maghreb (regardless of their religion or ethnicity). M.Bitton (talk) 20:55, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Well using "Maghrebi" without getting it from a reliable source is nonsense. In those times someone from the eastern parts of the Maghreb (Ifriqya) would be called Ifriqyan. A "Maghrebi" is a vague and opaque word that should be referenced by reliable sources. Is Someone from Tunis Ifriqyan or Maghrebi or Tunisian? If most of the sources are using Tunisian, we stay with word. If it's using Ifriqyan/Maghrebi than that's the word that we should use. -Suratrat (talk) 21:12, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

These are some of the reliable secondary/tertiary sources that are mentioning his Nationality as Moroccan:

"...a versatile Moroccan scholar whose reputation rests mainly on his knowledge of mathematics, astronomy, astrology and occult sciences." Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition

"....was a Moroccan polymath best known for his textbooks on mathematics and astronomy." Encyclopaedia of Islam, THREE

"The Moroccan Ibn al-Banna' (1256-1321)" General history of Africa, abridged edition v. 4, p:28

"Moroccan mathematician and astronomer..... Born at Marrakech...studied there and in Fes...." Introduction to the History of Science volume 2 part 2 p:998

@Thomas.W, Kansas Bear, and Wiqi55: Are there any problems with these sources? -Suratrat (talk) 21:52, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

• There was no such thing as "Moroccan nationality" back then. That's a fact! I'm done here. M.Bitton (talk) 22:12, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
• Your insistence that "Moroccan" must be in the lead is a violation of WP:LEAD. Per WP:LEAD, "In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents." This article makes zero comments about Morocco or Moroccans. The addition of Moroccan into the lead sentence represents what? Nationality? Ethnicity? If nationality, that can not be used since Morocco did not exist during this time, if ethncity, then MOS:Ethnicity applies. Nothing is gained by adding Moroccan to the lead sentence of this article. Wikipedia is not a copy of what other encyclopedias state. It has its own rules. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:20, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

References