Talk:Holden/Archive 1

Commodore

The opening paragraph in the Holdern Commodore section implies that the Commodore has been steadily evolving away from it's Opel beginings. This is not the case. The VB, VN and VR? being new designs based on Opel cars. Martyman 05:55, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Holden VN and VR Commodore were based on the 1986 and 1994 Opel Omega respectively, but these were based on stretched platforms to cater for the needs of the local market. The VB/VC models were identical to the Opel Commodore of the time, but with larger engines. Quiensabe 01:42, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Holden Commodore initially was based on the contemporary Holden Commodore.

However, through the entire life of the model since 1978, the car has had significant engineering differences.

The current Commodore VE has no European equivalent (the European Commodore was succeeded by the Omega, then the Signum- which is a FWD car based on the Vectra), and is an international GM platform for GM RWD vehicles Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Do these models exist?

Were the Nissan Primera or Pulsar ever rebadged as Holdens? In the time I've spent in both Australia and New Zealand, I really don't think so. Holden stopped sharing models with Nissan after the Astra was dropped, and Nissan ceased manufacture of cars in Australia with the demise of the Pintara (sold as a Ford Corsair). GM in New Zealand was never affected by the Button Plan, so had no interest in rebadging Nissans as Holdens. There was never a model called the Holden Kadett in NZ- the Kadett was sold as an Opel, although the Opel Astra was eventually sold as a Holden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quiensabe (talk • contribs) 01:50, 6 January 2005

The Nissan Primera is only available in Europe. They even put the indicator lever on the wrong side to match other european cars. Also the instrumentation is in the middle of the dash so they can put the steering wheel on either side. Completely designed for europe. You will never see one in Australia. The primera is a big car with a tiny little engine. Can't compete with a commodore V6! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.254.168.102 (talk • contribs) 16:27, 13 July 2005

Primera was available in Japan & NZ as well as Europe. Primera is small/medium car with medium engine (SR20DE etc.), never badged Holden AFAIK. N12 Pulsar was Astra for a while - first paragraph here by more than one contributor? Anyway a really wacky addition to the Holden Exports section would be the Mazda Roadpacer. RB30DE 22:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The Australian made Nissan Pulsar certainly was rebadged in Australia as the Holden Astra- commencing in 1985. The Astra hatch complemented the Isuzu sourced Holden Gemini RB series, which was not available as a 4 door hatchback.

When Nissan updated Pulsar in 1987, they adopted the Australian made GM Family II engine, which was used in both Pulsar and Astra.

Subsequently, Nissan entered a model sharing agreement with Ford, and Holden entered a joint venture with Toyota.Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Holden Kingswood and DeVille

So much for the mention of the Holden Kingswood and DeVille (? Statesman) being rebadged in South Africa as the Chevrolet Kommando and the Constantia - As I recall these cars, they were adorned with distinctively different grilles and (?) tail lights. Would someone out there have any good photos of these? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.84.152.170 (talk • contribs) 10:10, 28 March 2005

These South African cars were the same as the contemporary Holdens- but they did have a different (Chevrolet) engine and a radiator grille which was flush, rather than recessed. The flush grille design was only used on one model in Australia- the Holden One Tonner cab-chassis. Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is the Vectra being replaced by a Daewoo?

Although it may be a bit expensive, it's a relatively good car. I just can't see Holden selling many models of a rebadged Daewoo. Daewoos aren't particularly known for good quality. If it's a bit expensive, then why not replace the Astra as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.158.42 (talk • contribs) 00:34, 1 January 2006

Three reasons: cost, cost, and cost. A lot of people don't really care about the Astra's superior handling or build quality, and would prefer a cheaper car with lots of equipment. As to why they're keeping the Astra, it gives them competitors in both the premium and budget small-medium car markets (which are quite different segments appealing to quite different customers). Longer term, however, Holden believes that GM Daewoo's next generation of products are going to be a lot better (they've sent Aussies over to Korea to help with the design). --Robert Merkel 05:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...I see. Yeah, I hope Daewoo improves their quality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.148.13 (talk • contribs) 03:57, 2 January 2006

It should be noted that Vectra sales have never reached expectations- the car is significantly more expensive in some levels than the larger Commodore. Hence, sales interest has been limited.

The current Astra is targeted at the premium small car segment, competing against Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus, VW Golf etc.

The similarly sized Viva competes in a lower price segment, against cars like the Hyundai Accent. Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if it's a new information for someone here, but as a german (& car-fan) I see the following problem: OPEL is a 'german' (or european) brand. And european car-buyers are much different to their counterparts especially in canada, the US or Australia. In europe you will buy a more expencive car like a Golf, Astra or Focus - the Opel Astra is in the Top 5 of the most selled cars in Germany. A Hyundai Accent not even in the Top 100 (!!). It's a bit ironic, that Opel models (like the astra) in germany don't have the image to be 'premium'. Astra, Focus and Co. are just middle-class for the middle-class of society. Don't get me wrong, but it just means that car-buyers in middle europe just have to spend more money than in other parts of the world. So a Vectra, Zafira or Astra is not suitable for markets out of europe. Greetz TomGaribaldi 15:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Premium cars in the class of Astra, Focus & Co. are (in europe) cars like the BMW 1 Series, Mercedes Benz A- and B-Class or Audi A3 series. Models you won't find in most parts of the world [but a I see they are all available in australia ;-) ]. Greetz TomGaribaldi 11:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Ford as rival, models, Rayner Hof

I feel the article somehow misses the Holden's place in Australia. It isn't that Australia isn't mentioned, but more that most Australians buy (used to buy) either a Ford or a Holden, that many can identify the 2 letter model number of those cars and refer to their EH, HQ, ... No mention of utes or panelvans or family sedans... barely any mention of Ford.

The history misses out from 1850 - 1931 when it was a local firm. The badge was designed in 1928 by Raynor Hof, who also designed the Sydney cenotaph. The 'Lion and Stone' symbol represents the legend of man's invention of the wheel.

As the rticle is obviously well developed, it seems appropriate to discuss changes here--A Y Arktos 20:37, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Need some help

I'm doing a List of Holden vehicles and since I'm neither an Aussie nor a Kiwi I could easily use the help of anyone familiar with Holden. -Daniel Blanchette 02:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Daniel, I hope you find the additional information I have added is helpful.Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone verify this?

In April 2005, the New Zealand Government accidentally banned the importation of Holdens after introducing its Anti-G.M. legislation. The legislation was changed shortly afterwards to remove the ambiguity.

It's in the NZ section, and I've flagged it for verification. I think it's a tongue in cheek comment, but I'm not 100% sure. Decromin 10:23, August 21, 2006 (UTC)

"The Ultimate Fate of Many..."

Is it really necessary to have the picture of the old rust bucket? I mean, come on. It seems a bit sad to me. Is this the work of some kind of embittered Ford owner? --Jquarry 02:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed - it's not really in encyclopedic style. Should be replaced by a logo or something more representative of the subject matter. Decromin 10:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. I think it should be removed and replaced with something else. I.E. a Holden Commodore - there’s plenty of images of them on Wikipedia. OSX 10:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I've replaced the image with one from the Commodore article. Feel free to switch it if there's something better. Decromin 09:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The neutrality of this article is disputed.

By whom and for what reason? No point in tagging an article and then not backing that up with a reason. Decromin 11:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Meh, no replies, and no response from the person who posted the dispute tag. It's gone until someone can show good cause why it should return (and I don't know why wiki didn't save my edit summary) ... Decromin 15:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

What's with this statement?

"In August 2006, Holden released the all new VE Commodore receiving increased power upgrades, performance, handling and appearance. But many people see the car as all talk. Holden state that there better than the highly respected automotive brand BMW, and that leave the competition in the Stone Age. This has given Holden an I’m better than everyone else, stuck up type image which isn't good for the company. People say that Holden is and big fish in a little country, and that they think there better then the rest of the world."

Surely this isn't really the kind of statement that belongs in the article, no? It seems to contain a lot of opinion, and no real substance. I'll leave it for a litte while, but I'll remove it unless there is a decent reason to leave it. Decromin 09:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

OK - I decided to remove it, and I've left a message with the author to discuss it here if he feels it should be included. Decromin 10:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

POV

Wow - this is riddled with POV. Some examples:

• a unique combination of style, comfort, performance, economy and value for money that no competitor could match
• FE was a very attractive car
• Compared with the FE at the time of its introduction, the FB was a disappointment
• its styling did not translate well to the more compact Holden
• the Falcon had a far more modern appearance
• the Holden appeared dated
• could not disguise the outdated appearance of the car
• This car had a much more modern contemporary appearance
• they were good cars - significantly better in every way than their predecessor
• This was Holden's most ambitious new model programme yet

There's tons more - the whole thing reads far more like a motoring magazine article than an encyclopedia article. I've made a start on cleaning up the punctuation, but there's plenty more to do here! 86.152.203.212 11:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

PS - I've just seen above that someone previously tagged this as POV but didn't back up their claims. Hope my comments above are a little more convincing! 86.152.203.212 11:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I am the author of the material described above as being POV. I respectfully suggest that any serious historical research of the material regarding this subject would reveal that the information I have presented represents objective fact and/ or opinion which would be supported by the majority of experts. For the record, it does not comprise merely the personal opinion of the author.Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that some of the statements do appear to be from a non-neutral point of view. Given the subject matter, as an encyclopedic (sp?) article surely this should only give facts. The Holden was faster or the Holden was smaller etc.. rather than the Holden looked nicer or sounded better? - Just my 2 pence. -- Rehnn83 ^Talk 12:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Just because you think that the FB was a disappointment, does not necessarily reflect the views of all people. I understand that you are new to Wikipedia, and I respect that. But overtime, you will hopefully learn the rules. I have started copyediting the article, and I would appreciate it if you would take note of my changes and apply what you've learned to your future edits. For example, you may want to consider making your paragraphs more detailed/longer. Try including more links to other articles, and please check that they point to the correct article. Linking Holden Belmont to [[Belmont]] will not take you to the Holden Belmont article, but to the Belmont disambiguation page. Finally you must include inline citations, this is more important than all of the other points. It is a must: see Wikipedia:Citing sources. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Maintenance of correct facts when editing for style

I have noted that several changes have been made to the article, including changes to factual material I have presented. I respectfully suggest that anyone who is earnestly making changes to articles for style and presentation should endeavour to ensure that facts are not lost, or errors introduced when they make those changes.

It is somewhat discouraging for contributors to find that this happens. Rather than spend significant time correcting the corrections, I suggest that those persons who have performed the editing review the information before they make changes.

In the meantime, I note that the article as peresented contains factual errors. Fitzpatrickjm 00:52, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I take it that you are pointing the finger at me. But the "factual" material that I have removed was merely original research, which is not allowed here on Wikipedia. Before I went over the article, it stated in one instance: FE was a very attractive car.... This may well have been what the motoring journalists quoted, but you have to say so and back it up with a source. For example Wheels magazine and a major newspaper may have quoted that, so you would say: When the FE was launched it was considered many to be a very attractive car by the motoring industry. [1][2]. If you were to include something like that in the article you have to cite that kind of information. I can assure that not everyone thinks the FE was an attractive car, even when it was released. I understand that you are new to editing, and we were all in that situation at first, but eventually you will understand what can and can't be included. OSX (talk • contributions) 08:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Holdenlogo.png

Image:Holdenlogo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold

I have reviewed this article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. I have put the article on hold until the following issues have been addressed:

1. Add wikilinks in the intro paragraph for Australia and Australasia. Also direct duty in the last paragraph of the intro to Duty (economics).
2. "HMBB made bodies to suit a number of chassis imported from different manufacturers, such as Buick, and Dodge." Remove the comma after Buick.
3. Image:Millionth Holden.JPG needs a detailed fair use rationale for its inclusion on this page.
4. "By the time Holden introduced the FB in 1960, many considered the appearance to be dated, as it was based on a three year old Chevrolet design." Change three year old to three-year-old. Same for "the two-year production run" three paragraphs down.
5. "The name "Monaro" is an Aboriginal word meaning higher ground or higher plain." Add quotation marks around higher ground and higher plain. Same for "The name "Torana" is an Aboriginal word meaning to fly."
6. "The four-cylinder Torana, later became the Holden Sunbird, which lived a six year lifespan..." Six-year.
7. "Despite the introduction of the similar sized competitors, the HQ remained at the top of the sales charts." Add an inline citation for this.
8. "The Australian Government intervened to endeavour to revive the industry, with the establishment of the Button car plan, named after John Button the Federal Industry Minister." Add a comma after Button.
9. "An alliance was made with Nissan, saw Holden offer a rebadged Pulsar hatchback in 1985 as the Holden Astra." The sentence doesn't flow well, as the clause doesn't agree with the rest of the sentence; reword.
10. "The change to the Nissan engine was necessitated by the legal requirement that all new cars sold in Australia from 1986 had to run on unleaded petrol." Add an inline citation.
11. "But to increase profitability, Holden has now looked to the GM owned..." GM-owned.
12. "GM and Holden confirmed V6 and V8 versions of the Commodore will be exported to the United States as the 2008 Pontiac G8 to replace the ageing Pontiac Grand Prix, in a deal to last the life cycle of the car." Single sentences shouldn't stand alone, so either incorporate this into another paragraph or expand on it.
13. To meet the broad requirement, the article should have a section about its corporate structure, sales, and/or marketing. Some mention must be made for the company's business side, not just the cars it has developed throughout it's history. You can probably make mention of the slogan, the significance of the logo, Denny Mooney outside of the infobox, current revenue/net income, etc. Maybe you can use Image:Holden blimp.jpg for inclusion of marketing. All of this information could probably go into one section if you organize it well, unless you want to divide it up more.

Altogether, the article is very informative about the history of the company, and if you address the above issues and make mention of more of its business side, the article should have no problem being passed as a GA. The article has plenty of images and is stable, with no major POV problems. I'll leave the article on hold for up to seven days. If you have any questions or when you are done, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 06:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

GA passed

I have passed this article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. Excellent work in addressing the above issues so quickly. Your addition of the new section exceeded what I thought would be there, so good job there. Continue to improve the article, ensuring that all new information is properly sourced. Consider getting a peer review to address any issues I may have missed and consider FAC when you think you are ready. To anyone that reads this review, please take some time and consider reviewing an article or two at GAC to help with the current backlog, as any help is appreciated. Keep up the good work, and I hope that you continue to improve the quality of articles on Wikipedia! --Nehrams2020 06:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Foundation date

I think in 1856 there were no cars.  A M M A R  14:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

True, but tif you actually read the "Early history" section you would have realise that Holden was originally a saddlery business until the twentieth century when it became involved in vehicle repairs, then later vehicle manufacturing. OSX (talk • contributions) 02:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Hartnett

There appears to be no discussion of Lawrence Hartnett and the Hartnett Car. Is this the appropriate page for this information?--Alexasmith (talk) 22:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Laurence Hartnett now receives a mention, but the Hartnett Car has nothing to do with Holden, although it is mentioned in the article Laurence Hartnett. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I added some modifications to this entry

To all that are concerned, including the original auithor, considering the importance of this manufacturer, I really do think this entry needs significant work, and I hope these comments are taken easily.

I have one hour ago added some changes, (there are now a couple of my own typos, - two or three - but I couldn't get the wiki machine to correct these easily, soz about that, I am sure someone will sort these out if they are really concerned. If not I will presently.)

My additions were, at the end of the intro to provide a sentence attempting to recognise this marques unique place in Australian motoring and engineering history, and also to recognise Holdens involvement with motorsport, also bringing Ford into the same sentence (As a GMH fan, I do not belive I have displayed any real bias here).

I have added a mention of what happened to the HQ, after 1975 - (HX< HZ etc - I realise this is repeated later in the entry, but dont think it is too bad, I think typos corrected it still reads OK. (although damn, I neglected to mention that the WB was also released as a van).

I added the mention of motorsport again with Torana and its sucess against Fords GTHO at Bathurst. Links should, in my opinion be created to Bathurst, (both as a town and as a motor race) to Ford Australia and to the XY-XW GTHO Falcon, as the entries are bound to exist either now, or eventually.

I also added a reference to the word Torana being sourced from Indigenous Australian dialect with the meaning 'to fly'.

However - I think generally, the entire article, whilst it has obviously had much work put into it is still a work in progress. More pics, and much more work on the Australian development of the Commodore should be starters in my opinion.

Hope nobody is offended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reasonatwiki (talk • contribs) 19:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Improvements needed

This is the FA article on the main page. I remember seeing the article when it was trying to become FA. 2 improvements needed. The list of Holdens should be listed. Some people don't have time to painstakingly look in the article and write down on a separate paper what cars Holden made or makes. There is an error at the bottom template where GM marques are listed. Lotus is not listed. It was part of GM in the 1980's. I will leave these corrections to those who know more about cars than me. Chergles (talk) 14:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

This template can be expanded within the article to reveal the list of all the cars and their names ever marketed under the brand name of Holden.Template:Holden_timeline.his list does not need to be right at the top of the article, but it should be indexed in the table of contents.217.83.151.108 (talk) 18:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Chergles, your issues have now been addressed. As "217.83.151.108" said, the Template:Holden timeline fulfills the role of a list of models, which would look quite ugly. While this timeline only goes as far back as 1980, a link down the bottom will take you to an actual list. Also, I've put this timeline under a new section called "Vehicle lineup". OSX (talk • contributions) 03:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Statesman status

"The Statesman marque lasted until 1984, when Holden abandoned the full-size luxury segment."

I don't think so. The LWB models have been with us with VN, VY and VE models. Can someone with more knowledge please review this whole article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.12.244.3 (talk) 03:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes the Statesman marque (brand) departed in 1984. Holden in 1990 reintroduced the Statesman, but as a Holden Statesman. Between 1971 and 1984, Holden marketed the "Holden Statesman" as the "Statesman", not as Holden. Regards. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

To clarify that comment, from 1971 to 1984 the Statesman marque (brand) was sold in three levels: Custom (un-badged, HQ only), Deville (HQ, HJ, HX, HZ & WB) & Caprice (HJ, HX, HZ & WB). The name Holden was not used on any of these cars. When the name Statesman was re-introduced IN 1990, it was part of the LWB (VN) Holden range sold in two levels: Holden Statesman & Holden Caprice. These went through the following series: VQ, VQII, VR, VS, WH, WK, WL & WM. These equated to VN, VP, VR, VS, VT/VX, VY, VZ & VE series Commodores. Terrybebb (talk) 02:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

A few additions or queries

1. In the 2nd paragraph of the opening section (re: historical production facilities), no mention is made of the fact that GM-H's second major assembly plant back the FX/FJ days, was Fisherman's Bend itself. It ceased use when Dandenong was opened in 1956, when the FE came on stream. This should be added. Also all Holden's local engines were & still are, made at the Fisherman's Bend engine foundry & plant. The Fisherman's Bend assembly plant does get a mention the '40s' section, but it should be added to list of factories in the opening section.

2. The spelling of Fisherman's bend is another query. It always was Fisherman's, but I understand that it has now been altered to Fishermen's (e instead of a)(or even Fishermens, without the apostrophe). Can anybody help with that one.

3. In the '50s' section, the FJ is listed with "A new horizontally slatted grille dominated the front-end of the FJ, which had other trim changes, along with a large rear window, but no changes were made to the body panels." Are you saying that the FJ's rear window was larger or different to that of the 48 sedan's? AFAIK it did not change. Also the bonnet & both front guard body panel pressings WERE altered to accommodate the new grille design.

4. In the '60s' HD sales figures are called into question, with this statement: "This series, unlike its predecessor did not garner significant sales and Holden responded in 1966 with the HR , selling over 250,000 units in two years. Actually the HD was not a sales flop, in fact May 1965 was Holden highest sales month in history. In absence of this literature, one only has to look at the gross sales figures. The EJ series sold 154,811 units in 13 months (11,909 per month). The EH sold 256,959 in 18 months (14,276 per month). The HD sold 178,927 in 14 months (12,871 per month) & the HR sold 252,352 in 21 months (12,017 per month), less per month than for the HD!! There was also the fact that the EH commercials were continued on into the HD for 6 months, inhibiting HD's possible sales & reducing, in real numbers EH figures per month. There was also an economic downturn in 1965/66, as every manufacturers sales dropped. My overall point about the HD being unpopular & a sales flop is that is simply not true. Sure they are not popular nowadays, the same can said for FB/EKs in the 70s & 80s & some early Commodores currently. In 1965, they were considered by both the public & motoring writers to be very modern & many liked they fact that they were far more roomy than the EH. Some controversy surrounded the pointy front & rear guards, but this didn't seem to affect sales. Most of this HD thing is just the opinion of modern day motoring writers who were not in the business in 1965. I think this section should be re-worded.

5. In the '60s' section the The Philippines & Pakistan should be added to those countries receiving CKD packs.

6. In the '70s', the first paragraph mentions the Tri-Matic factory being opened in 1970 & the new transmission debuting in the HG. The Tri-Matic factory actually opened some time in 1969 & the LC Torana was the first series Holden to receive the new transmission when it was released in October 1969. The Tri-Matic was also 'phased in' in later HT production as Powerglide stock was exhausted, but GM-H's official line was that the HG was the first full-size Holden to receive it.

7. Mention could also be made of the deal between GM-H & Mazda to export HJ & HX Premiers (without powertrain) to be fitted with Rotary engines & many other accessories & sold on the Japanese market as the Mazda Roadpacer.

8. In the '80's' section, the Rodeo introduction is mentioned, but the Jackaroo (4WD wagon) & the Shuttle van (also both Isuzu-sourced), are not.

9. Also this: "with engines confined to a single plant in Port Melbourne, Victoria." GM-H's engines were always built only at the Port Melbourne (Fishermen's Bend).

10. The LB Astra (N12 Nissan Pulsar re-badge) was released in 1984, not 1985.

11. In the '90s' section: "Holden updated the Statesman and Caprice with a range of improvements, including the introduction of four-wheel anti-lock brakes,[81] although a rear-wheel system had been standard on the Statesman Caprice from March 1976." It should be added that the modern ABS was the electronic Bosch patent system (ABS being a registered name) & operated on 4-wheel discs , while the old Delco-Moraine system used in the HJ/HX Statesmans was essentially an electro-mechanical system operating only on rear drum brakes.

Not knocking the article, it is a very good read. Just trying to improve it. (Terrybebb (talk) 03:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC))

Thanks for pointing all of this out Terry. Have implemented some changes already, with the rest to be done another day.

1. Comment: Fishermens Bend is mentioned in the introduction, but I refer to Fishermens Bend as Port Melbourne as that is the "modern" name. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

2. Have the same issue, hence why I changed to the Port Melbourne name. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

4. Done OSX (talk • contributions) 03:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

5. Done OSX (talk • contributions) 05:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

9. Rephrased to, "with engines as before, confined to a single plant in Port Melbourne, Victoria." OSX (talk • contributions) 04:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

10. Don't ask how that one crept in. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

After a bit of further research, it looks like Fisherman's Bend was the official suburb name at some time in the past (even though GM-H have referred to it regularly). Nowadays Fishermens Bend is just part of Port Melbourne, so maybe if we refer to as the Fishermens Bend plant in Port Melbourne. (Terrybebb (talk) 12:13, 18 January 2009 (UTC))

I have fixed this up on both the Holden and Port Melbourne, Victoria articles. For the latter, I included the name change as well. OSX (talk • contributions) 22:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

O.K., the rest of the issues/requests have been implemented, except for number 11. I feel that this is far to much detail for an overview article such as this. I have however, included this information to the Statesman (automobile) article. OSX (talk • contributions) 03:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that the 'point 11" information that was coped from here and pasted into the Statesman page really makes sense as is. GTHO (talk) 10:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

(indent reset) That was a dodgy job, you're right! That's what happens when you do write something in half a minute without proofreading. OSX (talk • contributions) 22:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

We still seem to have an unwelcome paragraph in the HJ section of the Statesman page, ie

11. In the '90s' section: "Holden updated the Statesman and Caprice with a range of improvements, including the introduction of four-wheel anti-lock brakes,[81] although a rear-wheel system had been standard on the Statesman Caprice from March 1976." It should be added that the modern ABS was the electronic Bosch patent system (ABS being a registered name) & operated on 4-wheel discs , while the old Delco-Moraine system used in the HJ/HX Statesmans was essentially an electro-mechanical system operating only on rear drum brakes.

GTHO (talk) 11:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about that GTHO, I copy-and-pasted that over as a basis for my information, and forgot to remove it. I think everything is fine now. Please double check, as I seem to be having a very bad run here. OSX (talk • contributions) 02:51, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Looks OK now. Thanks. GTHO (talk) 00:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Holden Nbr 2 million

I think, from a slightly unhelpful press shot, that the two millionth Holden, driven off the production line with much ceremony by the boss and a senior politician in 1969, was a Holden HK Brougham. But I'm not sure. Does anyone know for certain, please? Charles01 (talk) 19:47, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this milestone number was infact a HK Brougham. I do have a quick question for you though. Regarding your recent addition, could you please tell me the author of the Autocar article "News and Views: Hon I Sinclair, Federal Minister of Shipping and Transport, and A.D.Rea, managing director of GMH, drive the 2,000,000th Holden off the production line"? If this is not listed, could you tell me the name of the editor? Thanks. OSX (talk • contributions) 02:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

File:Holden HK Brougham 1968-1969 01.jpg—here is the actual 2 millionth model, a 1969 HK Brougham. OSX (talk • contributions) 03:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, in the title, Alexander Rhea's name in misspelt as "Rea". Is this your error or Autocar's? OSX (talk • contributions) 04:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Autocar spells the gentleman's name A.D. Rea, (and it calls him managing director of GMH - presumably GM-Holden?) so I suppose strictly speaking the foot note citation might include a (sic). Hardly seems worth it, however. Quietly correcting the spelling (assuming you're sure) probably makes more sense. It might be useful for someone with ready access to sufficient sources to kick off a little wiki-entry about A.D.R(h)ea. Or? I think I did something similar with Donald Stokes (and one or two slightly less in your face auto industry bosses from this side of the planet) a couple of years back, and those entries have since morphed into something quite informative...

The news page - two pages in a good week - in Autocar came without an author's name. In fact this particular little para was included as the caption to a picture of a rather fuzzy picture of (1) the car, (2) the big men and (3) a few other men accumulated for the background who've evidently been told to grin. I guess the page was set up by whoever had a few hours to assemble, cut and dice press releases received that week or, failing that, by the ship's cat. In such circumstances yes, you could enter the name of the magazine's editor. In the case of Autocar at this time, that would be "Peter Garnier (ed)".

Regards Charles01 (talk) 07:54, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

"History of the marque" or "History of the company"?

Should we change the section heading "History of the marque" to "History of the company"? The section covers the production of saddles, sidecar bodies, Fords, Vauxhalls, Chevrolets etc which are all outside of the history of Holden as a marque. GTHO (talk) 00:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Now "History of the company". OSX (talk • contributions) 01:34, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Citation failure

The Holden#Davis, Kennedy, Kennedy links do not lead anywhere. Using {{Harvnb}} would be one way to solve this issue.  Skomorokh  08:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Thank you for pouting that out. OSX (talk • contributions) 08:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Astra & Combo post Opel sale

Does anyone have an update on the future of these two cars after the imminent sale of the Opel/Vauxhall division by GM ? Passportguy (talk) 21:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The Astra in Australia is basically dead. This is the latest new information published:

“Astra’s been a great car for us … but the reality is … we have to do what we have to do to get profitable in the marketplace,” said Holden marketing director Alan Batey. “We’re not going to build cars here to make a loss.” “Your marketing dollars can only go so far. We had a Viva in a sedan, hatchback and wagon. We had an Astra hatchback, coupe, twin-top, sedan and wagon. “Half of our problem was proliferation.” Asked if Astra was unlikely to continue in Australia, Batey said: “in the environment we’re in today the answer’s yes”. Batey said the Cruze was crucial for the success of Holden. “150 per cent of our focus is on launching this car (Cruze).” Holden will begin building a localised version of the Cruze alongside the Commodore from 2010. Holden has more than a month’s stock of Astras still to sell, but most were built in 2008 and are being sold at a discount to the recommended retail price. “They were bought in before the (foreign exchange) rate turned,” said Batey.

— Toby Hagon, drive.com.au, May 19, 2009

There is all this talk about Opel and Vauxhall being sold off. GM is not doing that. They are basically trying to raise money by allowing a third party to take a stake in GM Europe (like how GM Holden only owns 50% of GM Daewoo). There are even hints that Saab might not be sold now (Next Saab 9-5 So Good, GM CEO Fritz Henderson Doesn’t Want to Sell Swedish Automaker). The reason (in my opinion) why the Astra is being canned in the new Holden Cruze. Here you have a high-quality (for the price) small car with six airbags and ESP for $20,990, and a six-speed automatic option for $2000—the competition are offering four- and five-speed boxes. The Cruze is at least equal to the current Astra in terms of mechanicals—it has the same engines, better transmissions and they both lack IRS.

The Astra would have to sell at the same price as the Cruze at the least, but economics and current exchange rates wont allow that. There is talk that after the GFC, Holden will launch Cadillac (highly likely) and possibly another brand like Buick or Opel (speculation). Simply confusing customers with multiple segment offerings like Astra and Cruze, Captiva and Captiva MaXX, et cetera is not the way to go. I can safely say that with a second brand, the Astra will come to Australia. But also remember that Holden producing a new small car from next year, and this could all well be the all new Astra.

As for the Combo, this is produced in Spain, and it may not be so greatly affected by currency (I don't actually know). Considering that it is based on the previous generation Opel Corsa/Barina, all I can speculate is that its days are probably numbered. OSX (talk • contributions) 00:32, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. But i think you might have misunderstood my question a bit. A short re-cap of what the current plans for Open/Vauxhall are :

GM will sell assets comprising essentially the Opel and Vauxhall brands to a consortium led by Magna. The division "GM Europe" is not being sold as a whole. This means that for the time being Saab will remain with GM and more likely than not will be closed. What will happen to GM Europe headquarters in Zurich and the GM plant in St. Petersburg is unclear at this point, as is whether GM will retain a minority stake in the new Opel/Vauxhall company.

Once Opel/Vauxhall are sold, Holden will no longer be able to sell Opel-based cars under its brand unless it obtains a license from the new owners. In the long term that makes a continuation of Opel-based Holdens unlikely. This is more a question of licensing than of exchange rates. Passportguy (talk) 00:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Opel/Vauxhall is not going to be separated from GM as far as I know, GM just wants another company to buy a percentage stake in it because they are essentially broke. I seriously doubt GM will relinquish the right to sell their own vehicles. OSX (talk • contributions) 01:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Opel/Vauxhall will most certainly be separated from GM if the proposed deal is to go through. This is the primary precondition for any money/loan guarantees being put forward by the German government, which is very much concerned that any money paid to a Opel/Vauxhall still part of GM will end up in the US. Without such a loan, the Magna deal would be off, and Opel/Vauxhall wopuld go into Chapter 11 with GM. GM#s right to sell it's other brands will not be affected and will continue through Daewoo/Chevrolet dealerships Passportguy (talk) 01:36, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Opel will separated, but still majority owned by GM. Also, since Magna does not produce automobiles (only parts), I doubt whether they will have anything to do with restricting the sale of Opels within GM (unlike Fiat, who wanted Opel for their actual cars—half the reason why negotiations between Fiat and GM stalled). OSX (talk • contributions) 01:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

(indent reset) I don't think there is any chance that GM will retain a majority stake. From what I have heard 35 % has been proposed, and even that is highly controvertial. Again, Opel will not get any money if GM retains a majority stake, so this would kill off the current Magna deal.

In my opinion the Fiat deal stalled because German politicians were again not happy with supporting another car manufacturer in financial difficultly, fearing that the money would be siphoned off to Italy. Passportguy (talk) 01:54, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you on the second point (Fiat deal stalling), but I cannot see GM separating itself too far away from its second largest division. Without Opel, GM is really a U.S./Asia/Australia-only company. Chevrolet in Europe is not key brand. 02:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you that GM doesn't want this but at this point I don't think they've got a choice. It's really a choice of either selling Opel and have European governments pick up the tab for the massive debts of Opel or keep it and come up with the money itself. Passportguy (talk) 02:13, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Sadly, what you are saying might be true. In NA, the first decent GM car in years was the 2007 Cadillac CTS. The Malibu seems fairly average, and the Buick Encalve is not quite there yet either. The new Chevy Equinox looks like a winner, as does everything else launched since the second half on 2008 onwards.

Opel has also improved by leaps and bounds recently (new Astra, Insignia), although they always had decent cars. Because of this, I think GM can turn around because of new product. A certain level of regional autonomy is need for all GM's subsidiaries, as the "American way" is not always the way to go outside of America. OSX (talk • contributions) 02:25, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Government Motors gets 35% of Opel. I imagine Opel will happily sell their cars via Holden dealers, but there are exchange rate issues. Greglocock (talk) 07:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

"As part of the deal, Magna would take over 20 per cent of the new company, which would become Canada's biggest automaker, while Russia's Sberbank would have a 35 per cent stake, GM would keep another 25 per cent and employees would secure 10 per cent." — drive.com.au. OSX (talk • contributions) 01:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Well either drive got it wrong or all the other papers did (note that drive's numbers don't add up). Whichever, GM do NOT get a majority share which was your claim. Greglocock (talk) 01:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Holden Automobile Timeline.

Can someone who knows how to edit stuff on wikipedia properly please deal with the HOlden timeline. It's ridiculous that the whole thing is from 1948-present. So much so that you can't see it all in one hit. and the fact you can't scroll across in that makes it even more difficult. The only way to get to the end of it is to highlight and drag across. That's just stupid. Someone needs to separate it into 2 reasonable timelines so that you can see everything properly. Dragonboy (talk) 04:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this is an Internet Explorer 6-only incident. The fact that this browser is 8 years old shows in its rendering of the timeline. There are other aspects of this site that don't work in IE either, but we cannot hold back progress for the sake of user unwillingness to upgrade to newer (free) versions. I suggest you go to the website for whatever browser you use and download the the most recent version. Kind regards. OSX (talk • contributions) 06:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I use the very latest version of Firefox all the time, and it still looks like that. So dont tell me im unwilling to upgrade. An what's wrong with it being separated into two timelines anyway. A lot of the car manufacturers timelines on this site are split into two too make it easy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dragonboy (talk • contribs) 04:48, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I apologise for making that presumption, as it works fine in Safari 3 and 4, Firefox 3 and Opera 9. Maybe you could upload a screenshot (here, or to flickr, etc) so I can see what the problem is and try getting it fixed by someone. As for the two timelines, doesn't that seem a bit archaic? I know others use it, but I ventured away from it to reduce clutter. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:58, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh my god i am so sorry starting up a little, i only just now noticed the scroll bar at the bottom of the timeline. Again really sorry for the fuss, i just never noticed it at all until now. Dragonboy (talk) 05:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

No worries. We all have those blind moments. Maybe a second scrollbar would be useful at the top? Any thoughts? OSX (talk • contributions) 05:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Might be useful to prevent any other little blind moments with others. Dragonboy (talk) 05:23, 7 July 2009 (UTC )

1856

Am I losing my marbles, or was Holden really originated in 1856, I was always believing that Opel was the oldest, 1863.

Marauder09 (talk) 00:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Holden was in fact established in 1856 as a saddlery business. I was not until 20th century that Holden moved into the business of automobiles (see: Holden#Early history). OSX (talk • contributions) 03:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I see, same thing with auto makers like Studebaker , Peugeot, Opel, and Mercedes I presume, or something similar, like starting as a Tractor buisness, or whatever. Marauder09 (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I hope this change clarifies your initial concern [1]. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:24, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

What model Holden is this

?

Hi, I took this image the other but I do not know what kind of Holden this is. Does anyone know. Adam (talk) 02:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Its a Holden FC Special. GTHO (talk) 02:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that, that was quick. Adam (talk) 02:43, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I have categorised all your Holden images on the Commons, so if you are (were) unsure bout any others, just check the category at the bottom of each image description page. OSX (talk • contributions) 06:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Once again thanks. I was kind of hoping that someone would come along and add categories as I had trouble finding them myself. Cheers. Also can't wait for the next car show at Sylverwater. Not quite sure when they are on though. I'll try to take some better pics . Adam (talk) 08:57, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

GM Holden

Comment originally posted at User talk:OSX: "The Holden article is being repeatedly edited to include "US-owned" in the description. The Opel article states that Opel is a German automaker and the Vauxhall article states that Vauxhall is a British automaker. Why is Holden being singled out here? The Holden article states elsewhere that the parent company in GM. Any reader can go to the GM article to find which country owns it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SPStech (talk • contribs) 18:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC) "

SPStech, the fact is that Holden is U.S.-owned, so there is nothing factually inaccurate about the statement. The Opel and Vauxhall Motors articles do a lot of things differently, they are not "template articles" that all other GM subsidiary articles must adhere to.

I am happy to leave the first sentence like this per your insistence, however, I have made the following change to the second sentence: "The company was founded in 1856 as a saddlery business, but later moved into the automotive field, becoming a subsidiary of the U.S.-based General Motors (GM) in 1931."

Also, in regards to your above linked edit, please refrain from personal attacks in edit summaries against other users. OSX (talk • contributions) 12:55, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I would be happy if the first and second sentence stayed like that. My personal attack was justified, Greglocock is a dickhead, and a one-eyed Holden bashing Ford fan. SPStech (talk) 20:59, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Laughs, Oh the big brave anonymous little boy, typing insults on his mum's computer. Won't she let you go to Mt Panorama? All I am pointing out is that the Toyota Australia and Ford Australia articles do not make the false claim that they are Australian car manufacturers in the first sentence of their articles, so why does the Holden one? Or, if you think Holden is Australian, like Kraft Cheese and Nestle chocolate, then the other two articles should be modified as well. Personally I have trouble reconciling Australian with 100% foreign owned, but so long as we are consistent I really don't mind either way. Greglocock (talk) 00:51, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The only place that Holden builds cars is in Elizabeth, South Australia. That is where Holden differs to Toyota and Ford etc, and that is the reason why Holden is an Australian car manufacturer. The article never stated that Holden was Australian owned, and the article is very clear that Holden is a GM subsidary. Everyone knows that GM is US owned and links on the article will take a reader to the GM article if they wish to learn more about the parent company. It is obvious that you are a Holden hating Ford fan, so stop being an antogonistic prick and leave the Holden article alone. Stick to what you know something about, go and vandalise the Ford article. SPStech (talk) 02:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The only place Ford Australia builds cars is Broadmeadows. The only place Toyota Australia builds cars is Altona. Your logical abilities are as restricted as your vocabulary. So, in your opinion both those 100% foreign owned subsidiaries are Australian? As I said, that is fine as an outcome, if OSX accepts it. Now I suggest you let your mum have her computer back. And do your homework, you obviously need to.Greglocock (talk) 02:59, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Ford Australia is Australian, so is Toyota Australia. However, Ford and Toyota are foreign owned. Did you notice that I did NOT say that Ford Australia and Toyota Australia are Australian owned? The Ford Falcon is an Australian car, they don't build them anywhere other than Broadmeadows. Kraft is US owned, but Vegemite is Australian. Why can't you understand this. You are probably a Victorian, that is why you are a moron. SPStech (talk) 03:12, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll take it real slow, see if you get it this time round. All three companies are 100% owned by an overseas manufacturer. All 3 have different formal names to their parent companies. All 3 assemble cars at one location in Australia. So, little boy, why would we treat Holden any different to the other two? Greglocock (talk) 03:34, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

You are not telling me anything that I don't already know. I understand that Holden, Ford Australia and Toyota Australia are subsidiaries of foreign owned companies. We should not treat Ford Australia and Toyota Australia different to Holden. Personally, I am not interested in what the Ford Australia or the Toyota Australia articles say. If you are, then go and fix those articles and leave the Holden article alone. SPStech (talk) 03:45, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Birkenhead, South Australia production facility

Does anyone have any information on the old Birkenhead, South Australia production facility? I have found this article from GoAuto, which states the plant was discontinued before January 1965. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Page 20 of Norm Darwin’s “100 years of GM in Australia” has a couple of paragraphs on the establishment of GMA’s SA assembly facility at Birkenhead in 1926. This of course was not a “Holden” plant at the time but would have become so with the takeover of Holden Motor Body Builders by GM and the establishment of GMH in 1931.

Page 142 of Norm Darwin’s “The History of Holden Since 1917” has reference to GMH assembly plants for the 48-215 in 1948 as being “Pagewood, NSW, The Valley Brisbane, Mosman Park, Perth and Birkenhead, South Australia.” Woodville and Fishermans Bend are noted as being the actual manufacturing plants.

The infoboard accompanying the 1948 Chevrolet Stylemaster displayed at the National Motor Museum at Birdwood states that the car was assembled at Birkenhead.

www.postcards-sa.com.au has reference to a Holden FJ being assembled at Birkenhead in 1954. GTHO (talk) 10:20, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I have added a sentence about the Birkenhead facility to the article.

By the way, do you know what the original production plant was? OSX (talk • contributions) 01:27, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll let you know re what I can find on the first Holden plant. Regarding the Birkenhead info which was added to the Holden page, this suggested that the plant was completed as a HMBB facility. This is not correct as it was a General Motors Australia assembly plant which was opened along with four other similar plants in GMA's start up year, 1926. It could not be considered to be a "Holden" plant until the merging of HMBB and GMA to form GMH in 1931. GTHO (talk) 00:48, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

So how do you suppose we include the Birkenhead information? If you know the details, please edit the article and make this clear. OSX (talk • contributions) 10:57, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll have a look at it. GTHO (talk) 03:04, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Done. GTHO (talk) 03:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Holden's Motor Body Builders Ltd

The article cites that the company Holden's Motor Body Builders Ltd. was founded in 1919, doing a bit of research recently (which tangentially led to me reading this article) I found reference to this company in November 1918 at http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5601940.Ratsmitglied (talk) 05:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I've been reading & re-reading this article for several years now but have never noticed that error. Norm Darwin's book on the subject is titled 'History of Holden since 1917' & an excerpt from my '60 year' book reads

"Holden was one of many organisations that saw an avenue for future expansion. In 1917, the company commenced motor body-building making a full scale move into the fast growing world of the automobile. After building nearly 100 bodies on Buick and Dodge chassis in its first year, the company increased production to 587 in 1918 and nearly 1600 just one year later. "

Probably time for an edit. (Terrybebb (talk) 21:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC))

Australian bodies

Holden with Vauxhall grille and mechanicals (?)

Buick straight-eight engine, grille and + ?

Are Australians aware that (for example) their 1930s Chevs Pontiacs Buicks and Oldsmobiles may look like the nominally same article in other countries but not when they are put alongside one another?

It is noticeable that Australian Vauxhall bodies are slightly different from their UK cousins. In fact I'm certain that postwar some Vauxhall tourers / convertibles were sent from Australia to UK and Utilities too and this was because Holden still built their Vauxhalls on a traditional chassis. Does anyone know the extent of native to Australia bodies (and chassis) made for (all) GM mechanicals in the 1920s and 1930s or know a source of information about this subject? I will leave this same note on the Vauxhall 14-6 talk page. Eddaido (talk) 04:05, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

GM bankruptcy, Opel sold, etc

So what's happening with Holden, now that Opel's been sold (along with Hummer, Saturn and Saab (and Vauxhall)) and GM is bankrupt? 70.29.212.226 (talk) 00:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

The bailout laws specifically forbid GM USA from bailing out foreign subsidiaries. Holden operates at a loss. Holden gets a lot of its engineering from Opel, and will have to pay for that in future. That's why Holden have announced that there will not be any new models of the Commodore (Recent Go Auto article, there will only be incremental upgrades). The assembly plant will be getting a lot of dollars from the SA government (about $100 million per year, or say $10000 per worker, per year), or they will vanish. Fishermens Bend is not viable as a product development centre as the main market, GM USA, will be under intense pressure to localise PD. The strong point is their experience with part outsourcing to China, That will continue. One of their competitors will buy Lang Lang as thye both need another durability track and they are very expensive to build from scratch. As usual the better Holden engineers will be hired by their competitors. Basically Holden will survive as an importer of Asian cars with Holden badges stuck on them, and a Chinese part sourcing operation for GM USA. If SA are willing to subsidise them then the Commodore will survive, but the chassis etc will only see incremental changes. A new Commodore will cost between 0.7 and 1.1 billion dollars, no government will provide that. No government will pay for racing car development so the Commodores will become more uncompetitive, they will have to get the technology and budgets frozen by AVESA, I doubt Ford will object. Then Toyota will buy the Commodore V8s and that'll be the end of Supercar. Greglocock (talk) 01:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

This is the biggest load of crap I have ever read in my life. I am sorry to be blunt, but it's true. Even if you said this about Ford Australia, it would still be biggest load of crap I have ever. By the way, when was the last time Ford Australia made a profit? With no export programme except a few Falcon sales in NZ and Territorys in Thailand and SA, I would say Ford's future looks grimmer. I would hate for either local maker to pack up, but your response above seem to suggest you don't feel this way. Sad really. OSX (talk • contributions) 10:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Sadly I have references for a lot of that, apart from lang lang and the common sense stuff, and I'll admit the supercar stuff is pure speculation. So quit sooking. FoA is free to operate at a loss as FUS has not taken bailout money, therefore it can decide whether to subsidize overseas subsidiaries (have you wondered why they do that?). GM can't, as of now. As it happens FoA operates at a small loss or a small profit, like Holden, and just like Holden, was last profitable in 2005. Incidentally you obviously don't have the faintest idea how FoA generates money, big clue we are /recruiting/ engineers. Why on earth you think building cars for export in Oz is a good idea given our high wages(I am paid more than US engineers on the same grade, and I'm pretty sure the CAD guys are as well) and high steel prices beats me. That thinking is why GM is where it is. Personally I don't want any government to support failed car companies, it doesn't work (i'd be intrigued to hear of any counterexamples). Greglocock (talk) 11:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Step by step-

The bailout laws specifically forbid GM USA from bailing out foreign subsidiaries. FACT

Holden operates at a loss. FACT

Holden gets a lot of its engineering from Opel, and will have to pay for that in future. FACT/SYNTHESIS (Opel will have to provide help to Holden at normal commercial rates since GM only has a minority stake in Opel)

That's why Holden have announced that there will not be any new models of the Commodore (Recent Go Auto article, there will only be incremental upgrades).FACT

The assembly plant will be getting a lot of dollars from the SA government (about $100 million per year, or say $10000 per worker, per year), or they will vanish. SYNTHESIS -based on Holden losing around $100M a year, an eyeballed average

Fishermens Bend is not viable as a product development centre as the main market, GM USA, will be under intense pressure to localise PD. FACT

The strong point is their experience with part outsourcing to China,FACT That will continue. CRYSTAL BALL

One of their competitors will buy Lang Lang as thye both need another durability track and they are very expensive to build from scratch. GUESSWORK

As usual the better Holden engineers will be hired by their competitors. HISTORICAL FACT

Basically Holden will survive as an importer of Asian cars with Holden badges stuck on them, and a Chinese part sourcing operation for GM USA. SYNTHESIS based on history and trends.

If SA are willing to subsidise them then the Commodore will survive, but the chassis etc will only see incremental changes. FACT

A new Commodore will cost between 0.7 and 1.1 billion dollars, FACT no government will provide that.REASONABLE GUESS

No government will pay for racing car development so the Commodores will become more uncompetitive, they will have to get the technology and budgets frozen by AVESA, I doubt Ford will object. Then Toyota will buy the Commodore V8s and that'll be the end of Supercar. SPECULATION

So instead of squealing like a baby, do the research. Greglocock (talk) 12:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot the engine plant. I'd say that is a succesful and viable export program because the resulting product is of high value compared with the inputs, and the labour content is low. Greglocock (talk) 00:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Interesting new bit. Holden owns a majority share of Daewoo, 28%(late correction) is owned by a Korean bank. Daewoo needs a large cash injection, obviously new GM can't provide that due t the terms of the bailout, and Holden is in no position to, as it doesn't make a profit and has low cash reserves. The korean bank will do so on condition that Daewoo becomes a full product range product developer. So, GM pacific's engineering will migrate to Daewoo, leaving Holden as an importer of Asian cars with Holden badges stuck on them, and a Chinese part sourcing operation for GM USA, and an engine exporter, with Commodore production entirely dependent on the whims of State and Federal government. Greglocock (talk) 01:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Interesting new bit, that's a crock of crap, just like that crap you posted about the Cruze not being made here and the G8/Chevy Caprice being made in Canada. You obviously don't know what your talking about. How about you give us your (detailed) prophesy on Ford Oz. You seem to be very quiet about that? OSX (talk • contributions) 05:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

What did I post about the Cruze, not saying I didn't but I can't remember doing so -I'm not actually interested in that market segment so I'm a bit surprised I commented? The G8/canada bit was referenced. The daewoo bit is not referenced, but here ya go, for a start.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2009/05/123_45885.html

Greglocock (talk) 06:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

That is what the Korean bank wants, it does not mean they are going to get it. Also, they want the HFV6 plant? Why? They use this engine in one model (Captiva) and they only make smaller cars anyway (what do they want a V6 Cruze or Kalos?). I read a similar article somewhere else from around the same time as this Korea Times article; I have not heard anything since.

As for your addition to this article regarding the unlikely chance of the Cruze entering production in Adelaide, please see: [2]. Now, where is Ford Australia's future product plan? OSX (talk • contributions) 07:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Since you were too lazy to look up the reference, here is a cut and paste from it

"Although Holden has lost money for three years running, GM's February 17 plan said: "Holden and the Australian Government have developed a plan to bring to market a more fuel-efficient vehicle", with government funding provided via "permanent grants", adding "with this support, Holden is projected to be viable".

Kevin Rudd and Carr announced that support -- $149 million for small-car production at Holden's SA plant from 2010 -- immediately after GM received the US Government's pre-Christmas loan approval. While they claimed it would support 600 jobs, it was just offsetting jobs that Holden's previously announced cessation of engine production this year would shed.

But while Holden hasn't said so, the small-car production and jobs won't happen. On March 5, GM issued a 480-page 10-K (annual profit) report containing a note explaining a $97.1 million "restructuring charge" for "600 employees who will leave" this year from a "facility manufacturing engines".

GM's February 17 plan specified 26,000 non-US job cuts in 2009, but then held Asia-Pacific jobs constant throughout 2010-2014. Therefore, Holden cannot add workers for small-car production in 2010 (or before 2015) without breaking GM's February 17 commitment to the US Government (unless GM cuts a further 600 jobs in Australian or elsewhere in Asia-Pacific).

In any case, it is difficult to see how Holden could fund the required $447 million co-investment. It is losing money and, until US government loans are repaid, GM cannot direct cash to foreign subsidiaries and Holden cannot use any assets as loan collateral."

I think a rational observer would agree that my edit was a reasonable summary of that section. Note the last para, it is the crux of the matter.

As to the Korean bank, well, you haven't identified where Daewoo is going to get the money if not from them - as I have pointed out repeatedly , new GM can't give it to them, and Holden doesn't have it. The bank has the money and will extract its pound of flesh.Greglocock (talk) 07:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

So Holden are outfitting their Elizabeth plant for the Cruze, but it "won't happen"? See this GoAuto article. Also this Drive article:

Holden escaped a "near-death" experience when its parent company, General Motors, went into bankruptcy earlier this year, South Australian Deputy Premier Kevin Foley has told a press conference assembled to announce new fuel-efficient V6 engines for the company’s Commodore range.

Mr Foley, whose constituency includes Holden’s Adelaide manufacturing plant where Commodores are assembled, said a massive injection of funds from the Federal Government’s Green Car Innovation Fund to build the Holden Cruze small car had probably saved the company from going under.

"We are not out of the woods, but we’re a decent way down that path," he said.

He paid tribute to Federal Industry Minister Kim Carr and Holden managing director Mark Reuss as the architects of the company’s continued operation under the restructured umbrella of "new GM".

"If it had not been for the stroke of luck that an Industry Minsiter like Kim Carr came along with the ability to secure half a billion dollars in funding from his Federal colleagues, and the arrival of someone as talented and as driven as [Holden chairman and managing director] Mark Reuss, we wouldn’t be here today," he said.

"It has been a near-death experience for Holden, but it has bounced back in the most aggressive and the most successful manner possible.

— Steve Colquhoun, drive.com.au, August 5, 2009

OSX (talk • contributions) 05:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I did have a bit of a think about Cruze (as I've said it is not really what I'm interested in). If they downsize ther workforce they have to pay a lot of money, immediately, to ex-employees (say 2000 employees at 50k (could easily be twice that) each that is 100 million). They really don't have that sort of money. Therefore it may be worthwhile to employ them making Cruzes here, even though it is fundamentally expensive as I've explained. The Feds and SA will kick in far more money to keep jobs going than to lay people off. Greglocock (talk) 06:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

And by the way, I think Fords new 2.0 litre turbo Falcon is going to be a winner. Especially in markets like Southeast Asia and China where displacments above 2.0 litres are heavily taxed. Shame about the Focus though.

When you said, "If they downsize ther workforce they have to pay a lot of money", are you talking about the HEC Family II engine plant in Port Melbourne? OSX (talk • contributions) 07:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

No I meant in SA, their assembly workers are currently working half time. That can't continue, G8 is dead, the long term decline in the large car segment means that Commodore and Falcon and Avalon are locked into a declining market, so Commodore volumes are unlikely to return to 110000 pa. Greglocock (talk) 09:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Four years later and what have we found out? The 2 litre falcon got great reviews and nobody bought it. Holden will survive by selling Holden badges on imported product. Supercar sadly turned into a silhouette series and admittedly Holden have persevered there. They may continue as a design studio, but getting rid of your CAD guys and engineers isn't a growth move. So was it really crap, OSX? Greglocock (talk) 10:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

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