Talk:Hit 'Em Up/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Cloudz679 (talk · contribs) 23:33, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I will review this nomination. C679 23:33, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for starting on the review Cloudz. I can fix just about any issue so don't hesitate to get complicated. CrowzRSA 23:47, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

GENERAL

• Copyvio/close paraphrasing is an issue with one of the external links: [1]

•  Fixed [2]

• What makes [3] a reliable source (used five times overall in the article)?

• Chuck Philips is a well-known journalist and it is his website.

• What makes [4] a reliable source? It appears as if it is from Vibe Magazine, which would be ok, but is from a free webhost.

•  fixed

LEAD

• I think the real name of 2Pac doesn't need to be given in the lead. A Good Article on a similar topic, Ice Ice Baby, uses the first paragraph of the main article to introduce the artist using his real name, and something similar could be done in this case. If you do that, all mentions of Shakur in the lead should be changed to "2Pac".

• Instead of 2Pac, I used his last name Shakur. It is consistent throughout now.

• "Reporter Chuck Philips who interviewed Tupac at Can Am where it was recorded described the song as "a caustic anti-East Coast jihad in which the rapper threatens to eliminate Biggie, Puff and a slew of Bad Boy artists and other New York acts" in retaliation for what Tupac believed was their role in setting up his attack at the Quad studios." too wordy. also Can Am needs context (seems to be a recording studio) in its first mention. Is it relevant to the quote to mention where it was said?

•  Done

• "It is said that" - WP:WEASEL.

•  Done

• "The controversy surrounding the song is due in part to Shakur’s murder only three months after its release." is this mentioned somewhere in the main body? I couldn't find it.

• It's in the "Aftrmath" section, first and second paragraph.

• " Following its release, the East Coast rappers insulted in the song responded through tracks of their own." - I could only see this in the mention of "Brooklyn's finest". There appears to be nothing in the article about Lil Cease or Junior MAFIA responding through tracks. There is something about Lil Kim responding but this is only supported by a link to the video on Youtube.

•  fixed - Lil' Cease really didn't even diss Pac so I fixed that, and I added info about the "Get Money" video by Junior MAFIA

SONG HISTORY

• "For the song, Shakur recruited three members from the former group Dramacydal whom he had worked with previously, and was eager to work with again. Together with the three New Jersey rappers and other associates, they formed the original lineup of the Outlawz.[4]" - were they the only three members? Who are these "other associates"? There is no clear connection between Dramacydal and New Jersey, but it is implied. clarify.

•  fixed

• "The first and third verses are performed by Shakur, who during the takes was accompanied in the recording booth by a woman named Tiffany, who grew close to him during that time.[5]" - how is that relevant? Meaning is also unclear.

•  Done

• "The second verse is performed by Hussein Fatal, the fourth by Yaki Kadafi and the fifth by E.D.I. Mean." needs ref

•  Done

• "Shakur's anger stemmed from the belief that Biggie, as well as other members of Bad Boy Records, had a role in the November 30, 1994 ambush and attacked. " prose

•  Done
• I'm confused on what you mean by prose here. Are you saying it does not flow well with the rest of the paragraph or that it needs to be reworded?

• "In a Vibe interview, Tupac called out Sean “Puffy” Combs and Biggie Smalls accusing them of either setting him up, or having advance knowledge of the brutal attack, and not warning him. He also singled out James Rosemond, AKA Jimmy Henchman, and Jacques Agnant, AKA Haitian Jack, of masterminding the assault. Pac recounted the true names of his alleged conspirators to journalist Kevin Powell of Vibe. Vibe, to conceal their true identities, referred to Henchman as “Booker,” and Jack as “Nigel” in the published interview. Persons familiar with the interview say Vibe changed the names after receiving threats from Jimmy Henchman. A former editor at the magazine denied receiving threats, without explaining why Vibe substituted aliases for Henchman and Haitian Jack.[1]" is this all covered by the single ref?

• Yes, it is in the recorded interview.

• "Henchman was later implicated in a 2008 article by Philips in organizing the Quad assault,[12] and in 2012 by Henchman's long-time friend Dexter Isaac who confessed to attacking Tupac on Henchman's orders and was confirmed as one source for Philips earlier story and in Henchman's own confession to prosecutors during one of nine "Queen for a Day" sessions according to prosecutors at his 2012 trial.)[13][14][15]" prose

•  Done

• I think that Wonder Why They Call U Bitch should be in quote marks and not italicised per other song titles in the article.

•  Done

• "the situation they had gotten themselves into" I don't know if this is legitimate American English, could you reword?

•  Done

• "Several musical components of "Hit 'Em Up" featured samples from other songs, even an interpolation some songs from the Bad Boy's catalog." prose

•  Done

• "The bassline in "Hit 'Em Up" is sampled from the 1984 song "Don't Look Any Further" by Dennis Edwards, which is also notably sampled by The Notorious B.I.G. and Junior Mafia in their song "Gettin' Money (The Get Money Remix)", and previously used in Eric B. & Rakim's 1987 single "Paid in Full".[27]" ref only covers the sentence up to Dennis Edwards. That's probably enough.

•  Done

• "Shakur raps in a white room with The Outlawz, as well as in purple-caged room and a black room with bullet holes in the background. TV monitors in the background show clips of Shakur, Puffy, and Biggie Smalls, and even clips from the video "Made Niggaz." The video featured actors who were recalled from their prior roles in the music video for "2 of Amerikaz Most Wanted" to impersonate some of those who were attacked in "Hit 'Em Up."[38]" is this all from ref 38?

• Yes, page 90 of Bad Boy: The Influence of Sean "Puffy" Combs on the Music Industry

• "This included Biggie, whose stand-in stares dully into the camera and sports a Kangol and jacket, similar to one Biggie would wear. During the moments where Shakur raps about his claimed affair with Evans, Biggie crouches near the camera while Shakur yells in his face. Puffy is also impersonated, appearing with a high-top fade and leaning towards the camera, lowering and raising his sunglasses.[38]" same comment as above

• Yes, page 90 of Bad Boy: The Influence of Sean "Puffy" Combs on the Music Industry

• "During the shooting of the video, Shakur was engaged in an argument with someone, who was heard telling him "You'll get shot." His armed bodyguard ensured that he had nothing to worry about.[37]" ensured, or "assured him"?

•  Done

• "Shakur had also broken up a fight his friend Muta had gotten into during the filming,[39]" prose

•  Done

• "Some of those calls were to women who became either confused or angry that a female assistant was answering Shakur's calls." clarify

•  Done

• "The assistant had even mistakenly lost the pager, but by the time she found it Shakur had grown wary of her, so he fired her." prose

•  Done

• "It surpassed the song and video for "New York, New York" in popularity,[42] which was a pro-West Coast track by Tha Dogg Pound whose video featured the members crushing buildings in Manhattan.[43]" reword

•  Done

RESPONSE

• "Shortly after the release of "Hit 'Em Up", Evans went on the radio, denying that she had been with Shakur.[46]" reword

•  Done

• "Lil' Kim responded on her song "Big Momma Thang", which was aimed at Biggie's wife, Faith Evans, and Tupac Shakur. The track was altered for Lil' Kim's debut album, after Shakur's death.[49]" how does the video show alteration?

• Took out since it wasn't supported by ref

• "It has also been noted for erroneously stating the amount of money the jewellery was worth that Shakur had taken from him during the shooting incident.[52]" ambiguous. reword.

•  Done

RECEPTION

• "it has been viewed as one of Shakur's songs that resonated with and was spoken of the most by young people, the other being "Dear Mama."[54]" one of two?

• I think i cleared up the wording.

• "In retrospect of the events which ensued only a few months afterward" introduce these before mentioning them.

•  Done

• "In 2002, Chuck Philips, the LA Times Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter's two-part series, "Who Killed Tupac Shakur?," based on a yearlong investigation reconstructing Tupac's death reported that the Crips' Orlando Anderson pulled the trigger that killed Shakur and Biggie helped pay for the gun.[64]" prose

•  Done

• "The truth of the allegations from Tupac will never be known. Popular belief is that Faith did have an affair with the rapper, and it was later stated by some accounts that she was seen sitting on Tupac's lap prior to the release of the "Hit 'Em Up" song." ref

• I deleted the sentence because it was leaning towards being unnuetral.

APPEARANCES

• Is it possible to have prose here? A list seems unnecessary.

•  Done

That's all for now. Thanks, C679 12:14, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

You may want to review this edit as well. C679 12:18, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

•  Done

One more thought, is the quality of File:Hit 'Em Up.ogg reduced from the original? It's not currently clear. If so this should be added to the FUR, to establish eligibility of fair use. C679 12:55, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

• In a song that is five minutes long, the ogg version is only 30 seconds and is of less quality. I added this to the file info page.

• Okay, I believe everything is fixed now. CrowzRSA 00:18, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
• Ok, I am listing everything here which I still believe needs a fix:

• Puffy, in the first instance, should be properly defined, i.e. Sean Combs (Puffy).
•  Done
• The first and third verses are performed by Shakur, who during the takes was accompanied in the recording booth by a close-associate named Tiffany.[5] Chuck Philips spotted Faith Evans at Can Am when he interviewed Shakur a year earlier in 1995. People at the studio told the reporter that Faith Evans also contributed—that the R&B chanteuse recorded one or more “Take Money” background vocals that would appear on “Hit Em Up.”[1] - so what? How is this relevant to the history of the song? Was Tiffany singing? It seems from the wording that there is an allegation that "Tiffany" is in fact Faith Evans.
•  fixed
• "almost two months after the Quad ambush." - what Quad ambush? Does the two months apply to the releasing or the admittance?
•  fixed
• The first para in "Song History" isn't very concise. There is info about Faith Evans, but again in the fourth para. I think it would be better all moving to the fourth para. The info about rage may be better placed in the second or third paras. In the first para the reader is missing the info about who rapped the other verses. At seven paras, this section is a touch on the long side so try to remove redundancy.
•  fixed
• "During the moments where Shakur raps about his claimed affair with Evans, Biggie crouches near the camera while Shakur yells in his face." I understand from this text that it was Biggie, but the other text suggests it wasn't. Clarify.
•  Done
• "The assistant had mistakenly lost the pager, but Shakur fired her because he had grown wary of her.[42]" Don't see how the first part of the sentence is relevant to the second.
•  fixed
• "It surpassed the song and video for Tha Dogg Pound's "New York, New York" in popularity.[43]" Why is this noteworthy? Was that previously the most popular video?
•  fixed
• "Biggie did respond to this matter in a similar fashion" to what? The preceding text is about some kind of interview.
•  fixed
• "The attack on Prodigy came as a surprise to him,[11] and together with the rest of Mobb Deep they responded to Shakur and Death Row with the track "Drop a Gem on 'em".[53] " surprise to Puffy? Or have we changed the subject here? I couldn't find any evidence of Puffy being on that song. Clarify.
•  Done
• "Shakur's insults against virtually the entire East Coast scene of rappers were said to be ferocious,[2] and, along with "Dear Mama," has been viewed as one of Shakur's songs that resonated with and was spoken of the most by young people.[56] " what has been viewed? the song? so state it.
•  Done
• " "Hit 'Em Up" had "fan[ned] the flames of hatred.. ..and affects an entire black culture's psyche"" awkward use of the quote, changing the firs verb to the past and leaving the second one in the present. Make the quote consistent.
•  Done
• "Bruce St. James called the song "the be-all, end-all, curse-word, dirty-lyric, violent song of all time."[36]" doesn't seem to be grammatically correct. Could you check it, and if it is correct, add a (sic) template.
•  added (sic)
• "It also may have caused some of Shakur's fans to turn on him.[61]" very ambiguous.
•  fixed

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

The nomination will fail if the prose is not concise, particularly with respect to the "song history" section, which appears to be unwieldy, disjointed and partly redundant. C679 13:44, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

• It's misrepresentative to describe Chuck D and Kool Moe Dee as authors, they are included in the article due to their prominence as hip hop performers; if their book is important then specify that they discussed the song in their book.

•  Done

• I have re-read the song history section and there is still redundancy in it. The section should be concise and avoid over-repetition. The information about "take money" should be all together, the parts "The ferocity of Shakur's raging vocals,[6] as said by long-time collaborator and producer of "Hit 'Em Up" Johnny "J", was entirely authentic.[2] He stated that he had never seen Shakur so angry and that the words he rapped were in no way an act.[7] He explained that Shakur was initially fueled by his anger against Biggie and used this adrenaline, which he described as "superhuman", to attack the other East Coast rappers.[2] " and "Johnny "J" stated that the recording of "Hit 'Em Up" was the most "hard-core he had ever done." Although he was very happy with the work he had put into it and the resulting song, he went on to say that he had no desire to work on anything of that magnitude again.[2]" should be in the same place, and possibly merged, "Several musical components of "Hit 'Em Up" feature samples from other songs. The bassline in "Hit 'Em Up" is taken from the 1984 Dennis Edwards song "Don't Look Any Further".[28] The phrase "take money" is repeated throughout the song, which is a play on Junior M.A.F.I.A's recent release "Get Money", which is also the beat used in "Hit 'Em Up".[29] The chorus of "Hit 'Em Up" is a play on the chorus of Junior M.A.F.I.A's "Player's Anthem."[11]" could this go into the first paragraph? The section starts off the article and the prose still needs to be improved. Please take a look at it after addressing the above and make your own changes as well. Particular focus is on redundancy and being concise. C679 07:49, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

• I fixed everything except the moving musical structure info into the first para. Instead, I rearranged the article some and I think it looks quite a bit better now. CrowzRSA 02:14, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

• Hi Crowz, the article is looking in pretty good shape now, a few more things to address follow.

• inline citations must be provided for all quotations per WP:CITE (now it's all about Versace…), (two Pacs…), check article for any others.

•  Added

• origins last para needs a check for prose

• should be  fixed

• the original cd cover sounds very interesting, is there any way of uploading a copy under fair use?

• I found a bootleg/promo cover and uploaded it

• one more specific issue:

Several musical components of "Hit 'Em Up" feature samples from other songs. The bassline in "Hit 'Em Up" is taken from the 1984 Dennis Edwards song "Don't Look Any Further". The word "fuck" and "motherfucker" were used explicitly over 35 times in the song. - sounds like this refers to the Edwards song! What "other songs" are sampled? they could be mentioned here and the expletive count could be moved somewhere else. If they are actually in the paragraph below, it could be merged. The third para seems to jump from one thing to another; perhaps the samples could go to the second para and the rest could stand alone.

•  Fixed the Edwards song confusion, and there isn't any other talk of sampling other than the second paragraph. I'm a bit confused by what you mean here... I can't find any other sampling info, not enough to make an entire paragraph out of. Are you saying you think the whole profanity line should be moved?? CrowzRSA 18:54, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

• That's it! C679 09:44, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
• References to Scott and Strong need years, as there are two books mentioned for each author. Your responses to the above are suitable, as for the sampling, you write "several musical components … feature samples from other songs" - this is the perfect place to list them. Doesnt Junior Mafia fit under this criteria? The para looks lost at the moment, just that and the referencing left. C679 20:18, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

•  fixed it should read much better now. CrowzRSA 22:55, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

• All ok. The reference about sickle cell mentions Strong and Peel but I can't find any details on this book. C679 05:59, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

•  fixed it was just to The Essential Rock Discography, only included the forward author as well. I fixed it to "Strong 2008, p. 1573." CrowzRSA 15:55, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.