Talk:History of Edmonton

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City of Champions

This entry has been confusing people about the origin of the "City of Champions" slogan for nearly a decade, leading to the perpetuation of a canard in newspapers, and my attempt to revise the entry has been reversed with a comment about "well-documented sources", which, I am afraid, means "journalists who chose the wrong moment to trust Wikipedia". It is fairly simple to document local use of "City of Champions" pre-dating the 1986 tornado. Here's a Regina Leader-Post columnist in November 1984 observing that "Edmonton... has taken to calling itself the City of Champions": [1] And here is Oilers hockey player Dave Lumley crowing ""We're the City of Champions and the Oil Capital of Alberta" immediately after the 1986 Stanley Cup: [2] The current revision of the article handles this issue acceptably but it may be useful to leave these citations here to prevent further propagation of ambiguous language. Cosh (talk) 14:02, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

It is confusing because its layered history is exactly that — confusing. This is not a source from a journalist. Among a variety of well-documented sources referred to in the edit summary, this is essentially the primary and definitive reliable source from the City of Edmonton on the origin of the nickname. It describes its start as a way to market the City in 1984, which became mainstream after the tornado in 1987 as a means to describe the community's response to the tragedy. Then very shortly thereafter, the Eskimos won the Grey Cup in late 1987, making them the second Edmonton professional sports team to win a championship that year, resulting in a sports reporter using it in a sports context. The nickname's origin is three-pronged — marketing/promotion (1984), community response to tragedy (mid-1987) and success in competitive sports (late 1987). This article should speak to all three. Right now it speaks to the first two. I will add the third to complete the coverage. Hwy43 (talk) 22:16, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Here are the combined edit summaries that fix the content to briefly describe its history within all three contexts over the short three-year period, supported by the City of Edmonton source. The direct quote from the source is included within the reference output in the References section at the bottom of the page. Hwy43 (talk) 22:25, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The city document you cite may show that the term was coined in 1984—in the absence of even earlier citations—but it was nonetheless understood at that time to refer to the sporting successes that Edmonton had already enjoyed, most notably the sequence of five Grey Cup victories which the Eskimos won from 1978-1982. My citations pretty clearly demonstrate the sports context for the slogan and its understood (and undoubtedly mainstream) pre-tornado use. I am not sure I understand your apparent theory that a phrase mentioning "Champions" only came to refer to sports after the 1987 Grey Cup, which was the Eskimos' tenth (and which followed three Stanley Cup wins by the Oilers). To the degree that a piece of paper in city records supports the special role of the 1987 Grey Cup, I think my citations already demonstrate that this is incorrect. The important point is their pre-tornado date, not the particular authority of the publications they appeared in.

In this regard, your first revision was more acceptable, and the article is now factually misleading again. Cosh (talk) 11:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Sorry—instead of replying on the Talk page, you've now added your tendentious argument to the main body of the entry? Cutting and pasting your own point of view from Talk to the entry strikes me as poor editing form. There is obvious evidence for a pre-tornado connection between the "City of Champions" epithet and sports, but I am not even insisting that this fact be reflected in the entry: why is it necessary to have any language about "City of Champions" at all? I am trying my best to avoid an edit war here, and finding myself face-to-face with a hobbyhorse. Cosh (talk) 09:04, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

I have made no edits to the article since my last comment on this talk page above. Hwy43 (talk) 05:19, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I think the current coverage of the "City of Champions" issue is well done and balanced. I also don't see where User:Cosh has edited the article, unless we're supposed to assume that he or she is the IP who simply deleted the sourced material here [3]. Whether Cosh is the IP or is simply agreeing with the IP's edit I see no reason that the slogan should not be covered. Meters (talk) 20:17, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

I am trying to obtain an agreement on further edits before I make more. Would you say the citations here, taken all together, show the slogan pertaining to sports only after 1987? (How can they be read that way?) Even user Hwy43's city document does not actually state this: the account of history now in the main entry is not, in that sense, "sourced" by anything. Cosh (talk) 00:23, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Again, you have not edited this article before under your current username, so I don't know what version you prefer. Either tell us which IP or other account you were, link to the version of the article, or give us your proposed changes. As I also said, I believe the current version is well sourced and balanced. If you think it needs to be changed then propose your changes. Meters (talk) 01:26, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

It has been claimed "instead of replying on the Talk page, (I've) now added (my) tendentious argument to the main body of the entry" yet anyone who knows how to check editor contribution histories and compare the timing of my nearly concurrent article and talk page edits with the timing of the dissenting editor's subsequent talk page comments will see right through that.

My recent revisions are a balanced regurgitation of a balanced source that briefly documents the history of the nickname. Meters agrees they are balanced. Could the source be more complete? Sure. At the end of the day, the source is still a brief historical summary and is certainly silent on why City of Champions was used in 1984 to help market the city, and not some other nickname that could have done the same. The 1984 Regina newspaper article appears to fill in this gap, though we need to tread carefully to avoid WP:SYNTH. One thing that is clear however is we have no evidence yet that it was used before 1984.

Good news is Councillor Caterina has a notice of motion on the floor to debate bringing back the nickname, and so with it hopefully will the history of the nickname resurface in a more detailed manner to help fill the gaps in the current source. What we as watchers and editors of this page need to be mindful of is the movement to bring the nickname back now has legs. Fifteen billboards were unveiled across the city today (according to the news on 630CHED) advocating for the nickname's return. With ongoing media coverage and advocacy afoot right now, we could soon be seeing increased activity here and on other articles promoting certain positions, whether for or against. We need to make sure there is no WP:PROMOTION that advocates either side of the argument beyond the current neutral and balanced state. Hwy43 (talk) 05:19, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

The 1984 ref does not seem to be a very good one. It's a sports column from Saskatchewan rather than an article, written before the Edmonton Grey Cup with the intention of heaping as much scorn on Edmonton as possible. Not a reliable source of anything in my view. Meters (talk) 05:29, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

The source is not being depended on here for its "reliability". The point is that it is inarguably an observer's report from 1984—I doubt the columnist in question was so unreliable as to be given to time travel—and that it testifies to the sports context of the slogan in a pre-tornado use, as does the Sports Illustrated article also cited. No one has advanced any reason or evidence as far as I can see to connect the slogan with any events in 1987 sports. User Hwy43 briefly produced a version of the entry with only a minimal, un-contentious reference to "City of Champions" and I would support either that language or a complete deletion of references to the slogan.

Because of the misconceptions that earlier versions of this page helped propagate, I agree that it is probably important to have a neutral and accurate account of the history as the controversy over the slogan revives. The single most important point is that the slogan very clearly pre-dates the tornado, but it seems we are now agreed on that much. Cosh (talk) 08:22, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Again, if you have proposed changes, then please list them. I can't tell what it is you want the article to say.

Of course reliability is a concern. The article already says that the slogan dates from 1984. Anything else in the 1984 sports column is not something we can use. The columnist does not explicitly say that the slogan was in reference to the city's sports wins. It may be your opinion that that is what he meant (unless you happen to be that columnist, in which case we have other problems), but we don't report editors' opinions. Even if he had explicitly said that I would ask for a more reliable source. A sports columnist is, of course, going to interpret the slogan from a sports point of view, so the column is useless for determining why the slogan was coined. The City of Edmonton council report we cite is a far more reliable source for the origin of the slogan. Meters (talk) 16:01, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

"Edmonton, ever joyous over the way it pulled off the 1978 Commonwealth Games, has taken to calling itself the City of Champions. The people figured they were pretty special when the Eskimos won five straight Grey Cup games but when the Oilers won the Stanley Cup just last spring, they knew." Now where would anyone get the idea that this visitor to the city was aware of a sports context for the slogan, or attributed it to sports success? Even if he did so spontaneously, or as a guess, this would obviously support my theory of why "City of Champions" was chosen and used, whomever coined the phrase. I am quoting a contemporary observation, a literal description of what a person in 1984 understood the slogan to mean. His standing or authority is of no relevance, and for you to suggest that I am making some contrived, exotic inference is astonishing.

If it needs saying explicitly, old newspapers are a very usual means for a work of reference to document the use of a slogan, phrase, or other piece of language, and we would have a lot of trouble doing it without them. Cosh (talk) 19:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Please learn to indent your responses properly. Again, propose your changes. Or drop this. What the columnist thought or believed is irrelevant. Lots of people believe that's why the slogan was chosen. You apparently do also. None of those opinions are reliable sources either. That's exactly the point of why his column is not a reliable source as to the original meaning of the slogan. For that matter, as I already said, the columnist does not explicitly say that he believes the slogan was chosen for sports reasons. Used that way, yes, but not how it originated. Your theory that his mention of it proves that it originated as a sports slogan is WP:SYNTH and has no place in the article. People using the slogan in a sports context do not equate to reliable sources that it originated as a sports slogan. Provide us with reliable sources that explain how the slogan originated, tell us what changes you want, or leave it alone. Meters (talk) 20:47, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

You seem to have missed the link I provided to an earlier version of the article which I thought handled the topic better—basically mentioning only the claim that the slogan was devised in 1984 (which is obviously not quite accurate either; "City of Champions" was used much earlier in other cities, notably Pittsburgh, and is a borrowing, not a coinage). The version of the entry I liked made no mention of the 1987 Grey Cup. No one has managed to explain here why the 1987 Grey Cup is important. And the interpretation of a simple quotation or two certainly cannot raise any question of WP:SYNTH. Cosh (talk) 22:11, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

May I suggest a brief cooling off period on this? I have confidence that this will resolve itself soon. If more detailed information is not included in the forthcoming May 30 council meeting agenda package, council debate on the item will likely ask city administration for a report to be prepared on the history of the nickname for return to a future council meeting. I sure hope they simply don't dust off the old report that we have already and copy it verbatim, or we are no further ahead. In the meantime, here is why the 1987 Grey Cup is important.

"Its use was popularized in 1987, when Mayor Lawrence Decore used it to describe Edmonton’s response to the tornado. Edmonton Sun columnist Terry Jones also used it in 1987, when the Edmonton Eskimos and Edmonton Oilers both won championships."

Here is the chronology of important dates in 1987 relevant to the above quote from the current referenced city report.

• May 31, Oilers win Stanley Cup
• July 31, Edmonton tornado
• November 29, Eskimos win 75th Grey Cup

Based on the quote from the reference, if Terry Jones truly did use it in 1987 when both teams won their championships, then he could have only done so between November 29 and December 31 inclusive, which by all means is after the tornado and therefore after Decore usage of the nickname in a different context popularized the nickname. I am not disputing it could have been used in 1984 through to before the tornado in the sporting context, as the two references supplied by Cosh thus far suggest, we just need that reliable explicit source to confirm so. As mentioned, there is a good chance this will be confirmed over the course of playing out this current city council debate. Hwy43 (talk) 00:49, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

As background on the current events unfolding, Caterina's notice of motion was delivered on May 9. The motion to be debated on May 30 is:

"That Administration prepare a report outlining options for the return of the “City of Champions” slogan to welcome signs and the promotion of the slogan as a way to recognise volunteers, including those who rallied to help out after a tornado killed 27 people in 1987, and return to Committee."

Hopefully the motion passes so city administration can prepare a report, and that the report will go into more detail on the history of the nickname than the report we have found. Based on past experience, we could be waiting another two months for that report if the motion is passed. Hwy43 (talk) 03:44, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Edmonton's name

The article doesn't mention the origin of Edmonton's name although it includes a reference to http://edmontonlocal.ca/edmonton-101/how-did-edmonton-city-get-its-name which has "Some accounts also speak of how a William Tomison chose the site for the first outpost on the north bank of the river and named the town after a member of the Committee of HBC or the place where that committee-member resides.".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton#History has "The fort's name was chosen by William Tomison, who was in charge of its construction, for Edmonton, Middlesex, England, home town of the Lake family – at least five of whom were influential members of the HBC between 1696-1807" based on http://wayback.archive-it.org/2217/20101208175137/http://www.albertasource.ca/metis/eng/people_and_communities/historic_fort_edmonton.htm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Edmonton#First_Fort_Edmonton_(1794%E2%80%931802) has "Edmonton House, and the subsequent forts, was named by John Peter Pruden, clerk to the HBC's George Sutherland. The Fort was named after Edmonton, Middlesex, England, birthplace of both Pruden and HBC Deputy Governor Sir James Winter Lake." based on Builders of the West by Frederick William Howay (Ryerson, 1929).

According to Fort de Prairies: The Story of Fort Edmonton by Brock Silversides (Heritage House Publishing, 2005) p.2 "It was named Edmonton House after the village of the same name that is now a suburb of London, England, but it is still uncertain as to why." https://books.google.co.il/books?id=ley-LL3RiIMC&pg=PA2&dq=%22It+was+named+Edmonton+House%22%22village%22%22same+name%22%22London,+England%22%22still+uncertain+as+to+why.+%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiylJjUoafpAhVECewKHaPDB20Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=%22It%20was%20named%20Edmonton%20House%22%22village%22%22same%20name%22%22London%2C%20England%22%22still%20uncertain%20as%20to%20why.%20%22&f=false Mcljlm (talk) 18:15, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Leduc oil.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:52, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Aerial photo

@TheImaCow : Regarding the photo you added. I don't think this is Edmonton. I can't reconcile it to any of the streets and railway networks that existed in Edmonton in the 1920s. Is it maybe Edmonton, Kentucky? Indefatigable (talk) 22:44, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

That's interesting. I have now looked at various online aerial photos (20s/30s) from the Edmonton City Archive, and also couldn't find such a location. The Edmonton in Kentucky currently looks way too small to have ever looked like this, and I can't find any railroads (or their remains) on 50s aerial images, especially not such large yards.

I removed the image from the page, and reported it to c:Commons:National Archives and Records Administration/Error reporting, a page for NARA image problems ... this page seems quite inactive however. --TheImaCow (talk) 06:49, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, @TheImaCow. After some further investigation, I have concluded that it's Saskatoon. The CPR station still exists on its original site, and the nearby roads and general shape of the station match the photo. Indefatigable (talk) 18:41, 5 February 2024 (UTC)