Talk:Henry Cow/Archive 1

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Cow, we need you now

Reform! Reform! Reform! --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Blimey - a few months after I posted the above, I see that Cutler, Frith and Hodgkinson are playing together in New York next month, for the first time since Cow split. Does this presage a full-on Cow reunion? We can only hope! --Richardrj ^{talk email} 13:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we'd all like to see them reform, but I think it's highly unlikely. As Fred Frith said in a 1998 interview, "Forget it! We're all much too busy." Besides, Lindsay Cooper is ill at the moment, and even if the core members were to ever share the same stage again, would it be Henry Cow? --Bruce1ee 14:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Make your mind up here; watch and enjoy! BTLizard

Associated acts

I've removed Just Music from "Associated_acts" in the infobox because I can find no direct association between them and Henry Cow. Just Music split in 1972, before Henry Cow had released their first album and begun touring Europe. Alfred Harth did of course work with Chris Cutler in Cassiber in the early 1980s, but that was post-Henry Cow. Besides, "Associated_acts" should only list notable associations. --Bruce1ee ^talk 13:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The genre

It totally puzzles me why this act (and others like them) is not simply labeled Jazz instead of that useless list of progrock subgenres. Miles Davis is more progrock than these guys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marius63 (talk • contribs) 13:04, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Henry Cow were not a jazz group. Their roots were in progressive rock, but they went beyond that, incorporating elements of classical, jazz and the avant-garde into their music. Allmusic's entry for Henry Cow calls them Prog-Rock/ Art Rock, Experimental Rock, Avant-Garde and Jazz-Rock. Miles Davis is labelled "jazz" because he started out as a jazz musician, but he later went on to explore jazz-rock and other genres. --Bruce1ee^talk 14:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Wholly agree. Miles was never progrock since he was never considered a rock musician of any kind. And HC could certainly never be labelled as just "jazz". Like a number of other groups, the problem comes from even trying to pigeon-hole HC into a given set of `music types'. That list may well be useless, but that has nothing to with the `amount of jazz' in Henry Cow. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I must say I totally reject the idea of them being classified as jazz, and should be removed from the Jazz Wikiproject. They started as a blues rock band and everything I've ever read about them classifies them as prog. Jazz people have to understand that they do not have a monopoly over improvisation. Acidtoyman (talk) 12:03, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that {{WikiProject Jazz}} should be removed from this page. —Bruce1ee^talk 05:45, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I've removed {{WikiProject Jazz}} per concensus. —Bruce1ee^talk 05:25, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Is Krause on the re-union line-up?

Lindsay Cooper's compositions for Henry Cow were all instrumental (at least the released ones), so why Dagmar Krause is at the line-up, when they are playing Cooper's compositions? She was singer of News from Babel and I understood she would be featured on the line-up of News from Babel's, not of HC's. Is there further information about the lineup of the reunion? 188.67.139.184 (talk) 17:06, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is not a Henry Cow forum. Do you have anything to suggest or add to the article? The re-union details are already included with two good references. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

In the article is told Featuring band members Chris Cutler, Fred Frith, John Greaves, Tim Hodgkinson and Dagmar Krause, Henry Cow will be joined by Music for Films, News from Babel and Oh Moscow. with references not including any line-up information of Henry Cow's. The performers of the event are all in one list. They do not all perform as Henry Cow. Of course Kraus could perform "The Dividing Line" from Art Bear's album, but I think some editor of Wikipedia have given the line-up information of Henry Cow for the event as it is not told in the reference pages. 87.95.125.163 (talk) 18:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Well this is the Henry Cow article, so I guess readers will be most interested in ex-members of the group who are performing. Personally I would not object to adding the others mentioned in the refs. I'm not sure we can expect too much from early press releases as regards who plays in which line-up. And who knows what may have happened by November - some performers may even have dropped out altogether. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

All we have to go on at the moment are the press releases. Remember, Henry Cow will not be performing by themselves, but with the other groups mentioned, so the "line-up information of Henry Cow" is not really relevant. Lindsay did compose music for vocal pieces (with News from Babel, Oh Moscow, etc), and I presume that that is why Dagmar (and the other vocalists) are in the line-up. —Bruce1ee^talk 06:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Timeline

The timeline is incomplete. Lindsay Cooper was asked to leave the band in summer of 1974 and asked back to the band when they were rehearsing In Praise of Learning. On Desperate Straights she appears as guest musician. Also Anne-Marie Roelofs was part of the final line-up of the band. The information appears on Chris Cutler interview: version 1 and version 2. 87.93.134.202 (talk) 12:28, 4 August 2014 (UTC) (edited a typing error)

(... she appears as guest musician.) Martinevans123 (talk) 12:38, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, sorry. 87.93.134.202 (talk) 12:59, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Annemarie Roelofs a member?

Was Annemarie Roelofs ever a member of Henry Cow? Calyx says on 10 June 1978 she joined "permanently". Chris says here "she was in the band". Yet on Western Culture and Vols. 7 & 9 of the 40th Anniversary Box Set, she is credited as a guest. A while back I asked Chris this question and he said here that while they asked her to join them, it was for their remaining concerts before disbanding. This suggests she was only a "touring member" of the group, and hence her "guest" status on the Henry Cow recordings. I don't believe she should be listed as an official member of the group, as this edit suggests. Any thoughts? —Bruce1ee^talk 05:56, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

These recordings on 40th Anniversary Box Set are, at least mostly, recorded before 10th June, when she was not a member yet. She is credited as a guest on Western Culture (or actually under list "also" on original pressing), but Georgie Born is listed there too. And like Cutler says, they credited only the core membrers as Henry Cow. But as Henry Cow had already announced they are going to split, I think they did not care so much who is a member of the band and who is not. Cutler do not say "yes" or "no" to the question either. 188.67.223.204 (talk) 10:26, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Point taken. I'm hoping for some more input so we can get consensus on whether to include her as a member or not. —Bruce1ee^talk 07:15, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Still no further input – I'll wait another week to see if we can get consensus on this. —Bruce1ee^talk 08:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Still no consensus, so I've reverted this edit. Feel free to reopen this discussion if anyone still feels strongly about it. —Bruce1ee^talk 09:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

In the liner notes to the Lindsay Cooper compilation Rarities Volumes 1 & 2, Cutler, discussing the Feminist Improvising Group co-founded by Cooper, describes it as including "all the other female members of Henry Cow (Dagmar Krause, Georgina Born and Anne-Marie Roelofs)". Given the earlier references provided above, I think that's clear that Roelofs was a member of the band. Bondegezou (talk) 17:38, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, I think that settles it. I'll add her as an official member. Thanks for the input. —Bruce1ee^talk 08:42, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Timeline

How long Sean Jenkins actually was in the band? I'll understood he was only few months from Fred Frith's comment here: "We spent more time playing as a trio without a drummer than we did with a drummer in that period. [...] Sean Jenkins did join for a while, but he was in another band, the Elastic Band, and had to travel a long way to work with us, and since we didn't have any money, he kind of lost interest after a few months". He is credited on Members-section for being a member from 1969 to 1971. 188.67.98.26 (talk) 16:05, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

The period "1969 to 1971" comes from the Henry Cow Chronology: September 1969 (Jenkins joins); May 1971 (Ditcham replaces Jenkins). He may not have been a regular drummer, but the fact that he was replaced in May 1971, suggests that he continued drumming for HC during that period. I'm assuming that the Chronology is correct. —Bruce1ee^talk 05:33, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I thought the comment by Frith is just placed in September 1969 and all drummer changes did not happen that month. Jenkins was also in The Elastic Band, which split in 1970, so he was in HC at least at that time or earlier. In Henry Cow Family Tree by Alex Komarovsky (ReR 1991) Martim Ditcham is in the band's line-up already in summer 1970 and Cutler already in autumn 1970. Jenkins is credited for playing at Top Gear in May 1971, but this information is from a bootleg, so it might not be reliable.

The current dates in the timeline are from the HC Chronology. I don't have access to Komarovsky's HC Family Tree, but it would appear there are discrepencies between the two sources. Which is more reliable? —Bruce1ee^talk 15:17, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Calyx HC Chronology is based on the chronology of The 40th Anniversary Box (or vice versa), so I think it's quite reliable. In upcoming book by Benjamin Piekut is maybe more about the early lineups. What actually means "replacing"? I'm not fluent english speakser and I have understood it would not in the context necessarily mean that Jenkins leaves when Ditcham joins in, just Ditcham fills the space Jenkins left empty. Friths says anyway Jenkins was in the band only for a while and they played that time more as a trio. And there was two other drummers auditioned before him, so it would give wrong picture when Jenkins and Greaves are marked joining in same time. 87.95.220.57 (talk) 17:26, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Point taken – I'd suggest that you change the timeline dates to what you think they should be. —Bruce1ee^talk 09:00, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Other thing, was all members of Slapp Happy also members of Henry Cow? The bands were merged from November or December 1974 to April 1975 as one group, Slapp Happy/Henry Cow, and I have understood in this time Henry Cow did not exist as such. In the chronology Dagmar Krause joins Henry Cow in April 1975. Henry Cow was also part of Ottawa Music Company, Orckestra and L'Orchestra, but during these times they also performed alone.

My read of what happened is that when SH and HC merged, the three SH members joined HC. In Praise of Learning is credited to HC, not HC/SH, and Blegvad, Moore and Krause are credited as full members of HC. The chronology says "Krause joins the new Henry Cow", but she was already a member of the original HC after the merger with SH. —Bruce1ee^talk 15:17, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

In Praise of Learning is released after the two groups separated and it's more Henry Cow album. It's credited to Hery Cow and Slapp Happy on original etiquette of the record (see here, also on spine, if I remember correct) and the improvisations are credited to Henry Cow/Slapp Happy. The list of the musicians is not credited as Henry Cow. 87.95.220.57 (talk) 17:26, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

You're right about the credits (after digging out my LP copy of this album). What changes to the timeline do you suggest? —Bruce1ee^talk 09:00, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Third thing, in Wikipedia's band timelines the members of the bands are normally sorted by the instruments they are playing, not by the date they have joined. I'm not sure is there any consensus about this as I did not find any guide for band timelines. I think it works also like it is now. There is also some differences by the colour codes, like the colour of harmonica is used usually for violin (or strings) and harmonica is listed as wind instrument (see for example Canned Heat, Soft Machine, King Crimson), but the colours vary a bit around Wikipedia anyway. 178.55.32.191 (talk) 12:26, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't feel too strongly about this one. What do others think? —Bruce1ee^talk 15:17, 1 December 2014 (UTC)