Talk:Hard rock/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

More on The Who and Stones should be included

This mentions Led Zeppelin alot, but really should mention The Who more, they were playing way loud long before Led Zeppelin showed up, and got them rock stack amps, round 67-68 they were as loud live as can be... More mentions of them and their influence really would be appreciated.

In the first lines, Led, AC/DC, Deep Purple and Van Halen are mentioned. IMO, the Rolling Stones are way more important do Hard Rock than Van Halen, don't you think?

Article to vague on what is Hard Rock

This article is too vague, it should be based around the blues/ r'n'b based groups only...This article includes everything that isn't hard rock! PLEASE UPLOAD SOME MUSIC THEORY IMAGES!!!

"the darkest lyrics ever written"

there is a part of this article that mentions black sabbath's "paranoid" album, and states that "it was typified by the darkest lyrics ever written"... thats not a very "encyclopedic" statement in my opinion, should we change it? maybe something like "it was typified by very dark lyrics"?

Quiet Riot

In The Second Era (1980s) it states that "Quiet Riot's Metal Health is the first album ever which reached #1 in the Billboard United States chart." Shouldn't it be "Quiet Riot's Metal Health is the first metal album ever which reached #1 in the Billboard United States chart."? But then again, if you deefine Led Zeppelin as metal, they had plenty of #1 albums...

What About The Beatles?

The Beatles wrote the songs "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band", "Drive My Car", "I Want You", "I've Got A Feeling" and many more, which have MUCH MORE hard rock marks than "You Really Got Me" and "My Generation". AND WHAT ABOUT HELTER SKELTER??? It is a pure hard rock song !! Come-on! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.249.67 (talk) 15:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"Helter Skelter" is probably THE only hard rock song in the 1960s. In no way is "My Generation" a Hard Rock song. Please, do I need to take the time to go and actually write down were I got that information? I mean, the Beatles are the most influential band from the 60s and "Helter Skelter" is pretty much the fire that started the Hard Rock genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.53.128.209 (talk) 17:32, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

It would be great if you could provide some reliable and verifiable sources for that.--SabreBD (talk) 22:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

There... http://www.discogs.com/release/644206. Seriously, I mean, The End, I Want You and Revolution have Hard Rock marks too... But Helter Skelter is harder than all of these, and it's a pure hard rock song. Paul McCartney said that all they wanted is to do a real hard rocking song that will shock everyone. And the point of the song, is being ridiculous, while screaming the head off and make noises. Why? Because Paul McCartney likes noises. There: http://www.beatlesinterviews.org/db1968.1120.beatles.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.249.67 (talk) 14:07, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Clean up and proposals

I am planning to undertake a clean up of this article in the near future, particularly bearing in mind the tagged issues of WP:OR, the a lack of citations and other points that have been made on this page. If there are any other suggestions, now is a good time to post them here. This will probably mean that the article becomes more concise, as it will not be possible to find sources for everthing that has been said. There are also a couple of issues on which I would like to try and get consensus if possible. First, the reinstatement of the characteristics section (but this time with sources), which should also mention the relationship to Heavy metal, which seems a puzzling omission. Second, the sub-headings on eras, which imply that there is an accepted pattern here that does not seem to appear in the sources - lets just call these decades and avoid any appearance of WP:POV.--SabreBD (talk) 06:38, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

This now done.--SabreBD (talk) 23:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I totally agree with the changes you've made. Great work, Sabrebd! Thanks. Scieberking (talk) 07:41, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Outstanding work. I've never seen a page so dramatically improved over the course of a single edit. Bravo. 71.183.238.217 (talk) 08:05, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I realise that I forgot to take into account any edits since I started working on it, so I will try to look those over in the next few days.--SabreBD (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Great job. I've added to this article a lot before, but unfortunately didn't make any citations. I'm glad they're there now, and glad to see most of the work that I and others put into it remains and wasn't altered too drastically. I also like that things are in more chronological order now. I created that big section that used to be at the bottom about Aerosmith, AC/DC, Metallica, and Bon Jovi's success in the 90s and 00s, but it looks a lot better now that it's mixed into the rest of the chronology. I've made a couple tweaks here and there since your big cleanup, just clarifying things and cleaning things up a little. Like, adding adjectives (double platinum, etc.), correcting the spelling of Sammy Hagar, and acknowledging that Aerosmith's "I Don't Want to Miss a Thing" was a stand-alone single and not from Nine Lives. Abog (talk) 03:11, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for those adjustments, useful to have more eyes as I often find it takes a while to see my own errors after a big edit.--SabreBD (talk) 16:02, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Heavy metal and glam metal issues

Very strange article. And with obvious misunderstandings, it talks about hevay metal as a label during the 60:s! tHE concept is heard first of in the 70:s. And including glam metal in hard rock, so hard rock is metal? Sometimes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.217.30.124 (talk) 19:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources indicate that the term heavy metal began to be used from the later 1960s and yes glam metal is seen as both heavy metal and hard rock.--SabreBD (talk) 08:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

A New York Times article on Jim Hendrix in the 1960s stated his music; "sounded like heavy metal falling from the sky" The term pre-dates 1970 by a fair stretch. Wiki libs (talk) 18:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

2 More revolutionary beatles songs.

There's "Revolution", with the heavy beginning, and which has simple rock n roll moves with heavy-distorted guitars, which is very fimilar in classic hard rock (for example; AC/DC) And there's "birthday" which is also a proto-metal song, especially the riffs and the singing.84.108.248.109 (talk) 09:02, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Just because a song sounds like hard rock doesn't mean it was necessarily of major importance. To put these in there needs to be reliable reliable source clearly indicating their influence on the development of the genre. Notably, studies of the development of heavy metal and hard rock do not tend to point to the Beatles.--SabreBD (talk) 11:27, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

revivals lacking scandinavian hard rock emphasys

the scandinavian hard rock has a very important rule on its revival, and this emphasys is missing in this wikipedia page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.83.65.120 (talk) 18:31, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Not sure which bid of Scandinavian hard rock you are referring to. Could you please give some examples?--SabreBD (talk) 08:07, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Black Crowes

The issue of record sales is now sorted with a citation, good job. (although isn't 3 times multi-platinum 6 million units?). The issue with Shake your Money Maker "ushering in" a bluesy sound to hard rock is that the reference (or the one it replaced) simply do not say that. They may have adopted it, but some other evidence of its influence is needed. If they did it is important and needs to be picked up throught the rest of the section.--SabreBD (talk) 16:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the references, allmusic sometimes uses antiquated album sales statistics. So, perhaps, when allmusic originally wrote that, the album had only sold 3 million copies. But the album has now sold 5 million copies. And 3 times platinum is 3 million units, at least in the United States anyways. It only changes for double-albums, where each disc counts separately. As for the language, whatever, I understand what you're saying about not implying too much with the phrase "ushering in". Abog (talk) 16:48, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I was referring to the RIAA reference which says 3 x multi platinum. Multi Platinum is 2,000,000+ units. So this means 6,000,000+ albums, since it is single?--SabreBD (talk) 19:29, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

The reference says 5x multi-platinum. Which means 5 million copies sold. Abog (talk) 20:43, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't see a 5. Are you adding the 2x and 3x together?--SabreBD (talk) 21:33, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Here's the link to the source used in the article: RIAA. Go to the bottom of the page, the fourth column from the end of the table, you will see that Shake Your Money Maker was certified 5x multi-platinum in May 1995, which means 5 million copies sold. Abog (talk) 02:20, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok I see that one now. So multi-platinum is 1 Million not 2 million in this case?--SabreBD (talk) 07:46, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I guess. Really, it should say 5x platinum, but I think for every million more it sells, the number goes up to reflect that, but they keep the multi-platinum description. Abog (talk) 16:34, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Lets leave it as it is for the moment, as we can be pretty sure about that figure and I will try to penetrate the award methodology when I have some time.--SabreBD (talk) 09:07, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The Rolling Stones : Hard Rock ?

At the begining of the section "Expansion" , you say "In the early 1970s the Rolling Stones developed their hard rock sound with Exile on Main St. (1972)." Is this a joke? The Rolling Stones never did any Hard Rock. The album Exile on Main St. included Rock, blues-rock, blue-eyed soul, roots rock, country rock and folk-rock songs. I know The Rolling Stones and they never did any Hard Rock. Here, you're trying to talk about a famous band to give this article some credibility. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.166.221 (talk) 14:31, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

A description please !

Is there any real description of the style in this article? No. Neither in all the other articles about music styles. When you write an article about music styles, you should at least reserve a section for a real description, not only say that "Hard rock is a form of loud, aggressive rock music." or that "In contrast to Soft Rock, Hard Rock was most often derived from blues-rock and was played louder and with more intensity." If I understand, what you're saying is I could play a Soft Rock song, add blues elements to it, play it louder and it would be Hard Rock. You should write informations a musician, like me, can use; wich is absent here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.166.221 (talk) 14:49, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Why not get some reliable sources and put it in?--SabreBD (talk) 16:58, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Hard Rock is...

Allmost the first genre of Metal. The Metal was born named Hard Rock, and nothing else. The modern Metal is only a evolution of Heavy Rock/Hard Rock/Heavy Metal.

JMC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.174.151.243 (talk) 23:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

20/20

I have reworded the text and changed one of the sources to make it more suitable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.85.232 (talk) 23:14, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I have removed this. It still is very liberal with its use of sources. This one [1] does not describe it as a "hard rock single", but, crucially, as having a "harder-rocking edge appropriate for the end of the 1960s". The implication is clearly that the Beach Boys were not playing hard rock, but adjusting the sound to fit with emerging hard rock trends. These are two completely different things and there is no suggestions that any subsequent bands in the genre were in the studio thinking they wanted to sound more like the Beach Boys. This section is about the development of hard rock and so this reference is inappropriate here. I am also not sure why there is such desperation to lever the Beach Boys in here. They made a major contribution to pop music and production techniques, but I very much doubt that there is a reliable source that says they made a major contribution to hard rock, so lets keep it appropriate as per WP:UNDUE.--SabreBD (talk) 07:41, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Observations on the article

I have to admit that this is a very well written article. I like the flow and the transition between decades as well as the neat layout. I want to add a few observations.

1. Bands like Metallica and Anthrax are more properly heavy metal bands so they should not really be mentioned in this article, aside from being listed as "parallel" bands to the glam hard rock in the 80s.

2. FireHouse is listed in the 1980s but the band's first album came out in 1990 so the band shouldn't be listed in the 80s section.

3. I think the article should mention the monumental role and great contribution to hard rock of Queen in the 1980s. The band is barely mentioned in the article.

4. The majority of the photos in the article are placed anachronistically in their respective sections.

5. I don't see how grunge fits with hard rock. They are very different from each other. It sounds as if grunge is a subgenre of hard rock.

6. I think this article fails when it comes to describing what happened in 1991 to hard rock as a result of grunge coming to the scene. It also does not address the inclination of many bands like Aerosmith or Bon Jovi and AC/DC, to some extent, to just sell out cheap albums while abandoning their true roots and style. I think that the two above are very important issues in the history of hard rock.

ICE77 (talk) 06:40, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for these comments/observations. Easiest to make responses here point by point:

1. Anthrax is mentioned in this kind of context (as parallel). I think the problem with Metallica is that they later moved back into a more hard rock style and I think that is why there are mentioned through the rest of the article. Although it might be necessary to make this explicit and I will check album by album. I think it is fair to say that their appearances after the introduction of thrash metal appears contradictory at the moment.

2. Firehouse. It depends a bit on how the sentence is read, since they formed in 89 and started producing albums from 90. I will try to find a form of words for this. If I fail they may have to cut out, rather than left hanging alone in the 90s section.

3. The problem with Queen is that they veered between hard rock and a more commercial sound. In the 80s the commercial sound was predominating, but it is certainly worth re-examining their role here.

4. Not sure how the photos are anachronistic, do you mean that the photos are mostly modern? If so, please see the archives for why this is pretty much unavoidable.

5. The grunge section is based on reliable sources, which indicate that it supplanted glam metal in popularity and that some bands produced a form of hard rock.

6. Similar to 5 above, I am not sure what exactly is missing from grunge in 1991, but we are the prisoners of reliable sources. If you can find reliable sources that more clearly explain this then by all means put something in and see what editors think of it. The same goes for Aerosmith and co. I wouldn't disagree, but without sources this would just be seen as WP:OR. If sources can be found then we can try to incorporate the point.

I will try to take a look over the points above over the next few days.--SabreBD (talk) 10:56, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

SabreBD, thanks for the feedback.

4. What I want to say with "anachronistic" is that, as an example, the section for the 70s should have a photo of a band from the 70s so the text goes along with the image more properly. If something is available, I would suggest switching photos.

ICE77 (talk) 22:51, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Sadly it is not available as far as I know, but if you find something copyright free then please post about it here, it would be great to have images from the period.--SabreBD (talk) 22:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Grunge not hard rock?

As the lead is as of May 31, 2012 it appers that grunge is not considered hard rock there. Where are the sources? Is Bon Jovi and Poison hard rock and grunge not? Sources please. Chiton magnificus (talk) 01:14, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

The sources are in the main body of the article, in fact three references and the rather complex relationship between grunge, post-grunge and hard rock is explained in more detail there.--SabreBD (talk) 06:55, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

A source claiming "post-grunge" drew more from classic Hard rock than original grunge can no be used to state grunge is not hard rock. Chiton magnificus (talk) 21:20, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a source that indicates that grunge was drawn from hard rock?--SabreBD (talk) 21:24, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Why do you revert the question? Im asking if a positive statement in the article has propper backing. I have not (yet) proposed an alternative statement in the article. So again: where are the sources for excluding grunge from Hard rock? Chiton magnificus (talk) 06:01, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

The Doors

Are The Doors worthy of mention in this article? Morrison Hotel - also called Hard Rock Café - is pretty hard and was recorded in '69.Hoops gza (talk) 04:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Having a look at the article there are probably more than enough examples, don't need to cover every single example of hard rock. FlatOut 05:05, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

It is basically down to what the major sources indicate as a significant band. I cannot say I recall coming across them as a major source for the genre in my reading.--SabreBD (talk) 10:01, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Reference : Hard Rock or Heavy Rock

The Guide. It's Simple, People. Single Guitar Player = Hard Rock. ^3 !4 Black Sabbath, Rush, Mountain, Samson Guitar Player + rhythm Guitar or Keyboard/synths = Heavy Rock. ^4 !5( i.e. 'Scorpions' ) Twin Lead guitar, Bass and double kick drum, *Clean vocals & no synths(exept guitar) or keyboards.( i.e. Judas Priest pre 1980 )= Heavy Metal ^4 or !5 It's Only Heavy Metal if there are ( this should be 5 as a Vocalist should be 5th member, but some Bands ( usually American ) have a musician/vocalist ( Slayer ).

• anything without Clean vocals is Sub Genre

^ number indicates minimum members, this is generally a very good loose guide. ! number indicates maximum members A band that has 6 members or more is A, greedy. B, Going to split, or C, Symphonic.

One overlooked aspect is the use of a Piano, which can be used by any and all, unless it is on its own (Classical), but should never be read as 'Keyboard'.

If it has Keyboard/synths it is one of the following (& ends with 'Metal' or has a combination of these)= power, symphonic, Folk, gothic, death, doom, black, thrash, symphonic death, epic, viking, True. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.125.136 (talk) 23:57, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

It's a mess

This article is terribly flawed. Glam Metal and Grunge are distinct genres from hard rock, and should not be included in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.154.247 (talk) 10:35, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Beatles

The Beatles were experimentalists. It's a cop out to state that Helter Skelter was an embarrassment. It could be construed as the very first heavy metal song, as opposed to hard rock. The song, Birthday, also on the White album, was a hard number. With the masculinity involved in the subculture of hard rock/heavy metal, there would perforce be an emotional need to discredit the Beatles' contributions to the genre making it understandable yet inaccurate.107.221.229.121 (talk) 17:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

That was just one writer's opinion. While the Beatles probably weren't crucial to the development of hard rock, that section should at least be rewritten to accurately reflect what is in the sources. Piriczki (talk) 19:15, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

This article fails to mention The Who's rock opera Tommy, which is most certainly a hard rock album circa March 1969. Jimi Hendrix's sound gave birth to the genre, and it was already thriving by 1968. Shades of Deep Purple and The Book of Taliesyn are both hard rock albums. 75.137.123.167 (talk) 17:30, 28 January 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.137.123.167 (talk)

Source which states that grunge is not hard rock

A user has repeatedly claimed that grunge is not a subgenre of hard rock. I'd like to read the text of that source. Can we get that, please? --Jayron32 19:25, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

That is not the claim in the text. The source merely indicates that the rise of grunge challenged the commercial success of glam metal. It could do that even if it hard rock.--SabreBD (talk) 21:08, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Thin Lizzy -> Black Star Riders

I'd like to see some mention of Thin Lizzy and their recent metamorphosis into Black Star Riders. BSR are one of the few new Hard Rock bands recording albums (on vinyl as well as CD & MP3!), having just this week released their second album & started their second European tour. Both bands have always (accurately & obviously) labelled themselves Hard Rock. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.103.57 (talk) 19:11, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Correct word usage

Jimi Hendrix's music is Acid Rock NOT hard rock — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.186.117.211 (talk) 04:09, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

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This is the worst explanation of Hard Rock, as usual, or it cannot be categorized that easily. I would have to say that hard rock is not heavy metal, and the first hard rock bands were when guitarists deliberately distorted there guitar sound and also the drums. Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple. Even Van Halen later. But not all that southern rock and pop radio stuff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Awp (talk • contribs) 04:20, 4 April 2015 (UTC) why nwobhm was called like that: in fact there was a first wave of heavy metal to have a second wave called the new wave of British heavy metal this first wave was based on the British bands led zeppelin deep purple black sabbath not to mention Germans like scorpions or Americans like blue cheer the press in 70s and late 60 adopted this name to call those three bands heavy metal rock take a look on early 70s press or listen to any comment on tv bout this bands during this period they were called heavy metal rock why didn't they call the who or the Beatles heavy metal or even pink floyd simply because this name was for those bands since they have some special characteristics more than loudness and distortion therefore we cant call the bands who were already classified and this classification was for them just rock and roll otherwise the term new wave of British heavy metal was in vein it will not be worthy enough to call them nwobhm from where on earth did iron maiden or judas priest or even metallica took the term heavy metal or this influence why diamond head were called the new led zeppelin ask your self........ they are not rock and roll heavy metal simply have evolved and changed that all folks they created a genre and latter were disputed and underrated heavy metal can take lots of forms and can be fused with any genre how on earth some ppl call black sabbath rock and roll or protometal so led zep or purple its an insult to their legacy AND PLEASE RECOGNISE RAINBOW AND SCORPIONS AND ACDC AND RUSH AS HEAVY METAL HEAVY METAL COULDNT BE BETTER THAN THAT and latter metallica came with megadeth anthrax and slyer to create a hybrid fusion of punk and metal this was started by nwobhm but in a leaser extent then lamb of god came and created the whoooooole punk fusion so heavy metal is an umbrella term and it can be called simply hard rock its just another brand name

Last edited at 04:21, 4 April 2015 (UTC). Substituted at 20:29, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Hard rock and heavy metal

User:Sabrebd in your first edit summary you stated "they were reflecting the consensus on this article and heavy metal music that the two were the same for over a decade". There are still people who take heavy metal and hard rock as the same thing. And who is this they you are referring to? In your second edit summary you stated "that's the point - they are not easily distinguished". I'm confused here. If glam metal is going to be described as derivative form of hard rock in this article then it is only natural to include heavy metal music as well since glam metal is a subgenre of heavy metal. Heavy metal is basically hard rock that has been taken to the next level. Volcanoguy 20:28, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

'Drum notation for a backbeat'

It doesn't show drum notation. It is guitar notation, for reggae, I believe. AddingInstruments (talk) 08:23, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

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Oasis?

Didn't sound like a hard rock band to me. Mostly either strummy acoustic or fairly clean (low/medium setting) electric guitar sound. The drum sound became a lot weaker too after Alan White replaced Tony McCarroll, much treblier, tappy-er and snare-yer. They might have had the big stadium friendly choruses, but their overall sound mix was very much generic indie rock/alt rock. 62.190.148.115 (talk) 15:41, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Interesting take, but we have to WP:STICKTOSOURCE unless you find sources that disagree. The article seems to suggest the group just to be more hard rock oriented than their contemporaries in the genre, not really so much that they belong to the genre. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:04, 6 December 2017 (UTC)