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H28 not Hu28 edit
Wolfgang Hütter used the label "H28" on all of the plans, not Hu28. All of the plans are signed by Wolfgang, it is primarily his design. The plans are now in the custodianship of the Vintage Glider club.
The wing section is definitely not symmetrical at the tip. 120.18.204.159 (talk) 07:35, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- The cited Soaring ref, which is pretty well-researched, calls it a "Hütter 28", while the The Incomplete Guide to Airfoil Usage just calls it the Hutter 28 (with no umlauts, but that is probably just a typology limitation as it was an American website). The Vintage Glider Club doesn't seem to have an on-line list of plans to refer to. The article on RLM aircraft designation system explains that Hütter designs were officially designated by the Ministry of Aviation (Nazi Germany) in that period as "Hü" and so Hü 28 would be the correct government designation applied to the design for that time period, regardless of what the designer may have written on the plans. The article on the related Hütter Hü 17 notes for that aircraft:
The aircraft's correct designation is unclear and various sources refer to is as the Hütter Hü 17, Hütter-17, Hütter H-17, Hutter H-17, Hütter Hü-17, Göppingen Gö 5 and Goppingen 5.
I think when I put the initial version of this article together in 2011, the concept was to make it consistent with the Hütter Hü 17, Hütter Hü 136 and the Hütter Hü 211 articles in accordance with the official RLM designation system. It is noted that the Glasflügel H-30 GFK calls that other Hütter design the H-30, so as in the Hütter Hü 17 there seems to be a great variety. If you have a copy of the plans and can actually cite them here then I can update the article to indicate what all the refs say in total. We would need the title, author, publisher and date, if possible.
- As far as the wing tips go, I think then confusion is that the actual tip pieces themselves are symmetrical, as Soaring notes "tip, symmetrical" which the photo shows, while The Incomplete Guide to Airfoil Usage says root and tip are "Goettingen 535" airfoils, indicating the wing portions themselves at all Goettingen 535 airfoils. I'll fix that. - Ahunt (talk) 13:31, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- The VGC archive is not free nor "on-line", you have to contact their Archivist; archivist@vintagegliderclub.org. So I cannot cite a link that you can check to independently verify or insert into the article. Nor can I vouch with 100% certainty on the authenticity of the plans. They have passed through many hands since their creation in Salzburg in 1936, and most of the people are now deceased.
- However, I have no reason to believe that they aren't authentic. Each sheet of the plans has a title box with the main title; "Hütter H28", then Wolfgang Hütter's signature, and a date different for each sheet, with the first sheet being; 6th Jan 1936.
- The prototype was designed, built and registered as OE-KINSKY, in Salzburg Austria in 1935, prior to Nazi Germany's annexation of Austria in 1938. Hence originally just "H28". The "Hü" designation imposed by the Nazi's is correct for the war period Hütter Hü 136 and Hütter Hü 211 aircraft, but shouldn't be revisited onto the Hütter brother's earlier glider designs, H17 & H28. Post war, Wolfgang returns to his original nomenclature, with the plans labeled as "Hütter-30" or H30 for short.
- I do not understand what you mean by "the actual tip pieces themselves are symmetrical". Neither in plan or elevation are they so. The H28 root section is close enough to be called a Goettingen 535, though it differs around the leading edge. However, the tip section is flat on the bottom, which is very un-Goettingen-535. This information comes directly from the plans. I don't know how to validate this for Wikipedia, as I'm not at liberty to "freely distribute" the plans. 120.18.149.241 (talk) 07:20, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- As far as the designation goes, lacking a citable ref I have just added a note on the designation to the first line. As for the wing tip, the Soaring specifically says it has symmetrical tip, but there was only one glider example in the US and that one may have been non-standard and probably the one examined for the report - hard to say. Glider wing tips to get damaged in use and may have been repaired or replaced. I have qualified it further. - Ahunt (talk) 14:16, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- https://www.wlm-modellbau.de/index.php?goto=huetter28
- https://www.flugzeug-lexikon.de/ILA_2004/Traditionsflugzeuge/Huetter_H-28_II_Kurier/huetter_h-28_ii_kurier.html
- https://www.osv-ch.org/hb-223-huetter-h-28/ 120.18.149.241 (talk) 05:35, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Okay those are helpful. We also have a magazine article that calls it the Hütter Hü 28, Hütter H28 and Hutter 28, so I have added all of those. - Ahunt (talk) 13:24, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Circular reference. The magazine article used this Wikipedia page as the source for the Hü 28 label. The other references pre-date this Wikipedia article. Anyway, at least there's an explanation for the confusion around the naming of the aircraft. 120.18.149.241 (talk) 23:28, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I don't see the magazine article mentioning that they got information from Wikipedia. Where does it say that? - Ahunt (talk) 00:00, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thus why I contacted the author directly re the source of the "Hü" and thence why I started this WikiTalk.
- According to Wikipedia's own article on the RLM system, the "Hü" prefix was a late addition, added after the start of the war. Both the H17 and H28 were designed in Austria, prior to the "Hü" prefix existing in the Nazi RLM system. Thus your statement; "would be the correct government designation applied to the design for that time period" is incorrect. The gliders were designed outside that time period in a different country under a different government. There is just no evidence that the brothers either willingly or otherwise altered the prefix used for their glider designs to comply with the RLM system.
- This image is of the two brothers standing beside the original glider at Salzburg Airfield. The label "H28" is clearly visible, painted on the side of the aircraft.
- https://img.oldthing.net/8756/30857423/0/n/Aviatik-Salzburg-Brueder-Huetter-H-28-Schleppflug-Kinsky-Flugzeug-Werbe.webp
- Wolfgang Hütter was born in Vienna, designed built and flew the first H28 glider (OE-KINSKY) in Salzburg Austria in 1935, all prior to Germany's annexation in 1938. Austria is now again an independent country. (yet the Wikipedia entry gives the National origin as Germany?)
- In all the on-line and hard copy sources referenced below (all published prior to this Wikipedia entry), none contain a single reference to "Hü 28". The only references that I can find that add the "u" are this entry or sites / articles that have scraped / referenced it.
- Hütter used "H28" on his plans and painted it on the side of his own aircraft. For Wikipedia to catalog the gliders using a Nazi system for the primary prefix and promulgate it as the correct nomenclature for the aircraft, when it is demonstrably wrong, is not quite at the level of waving a Hakenkreuz, but it's still pretty hurtful.
- The decent and correct thing to do is to re-do the pages about the H17 & H28 using the designers original nomenclature. I had initially thought it could include a paragraph about the RLM system, but after further research the idea of the gliders ever being referred to by the Hu prefix appears to be solely a Wikipedia invention.
- A small selection of the many on-line refs showing that H17 / H28 is the correct nomenclature.
- Wikipedia article about Wolfgang uses the descripters; "Hütter H 17", "H 28", "H 28 II" & "H 28 III".
- https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Hütter_(Konstrukteur)
- Similar in the entry for Ulrich;
- https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_W._Hütter
- More;
- https://heiner-doerner-windenergie.de/leben.html
- The label "H28" can just be made out in the title box of plan drawing 22.
- https://www.wlm-modellbau.de/index.php?goto=huetter28,
- This image is signed by Hutter and uses "H 28" in multiple places.
- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/data/attachments/157/157409-5118291bd4cad21a4d708765055f4952.jpg
- https://aeroclub-heppenheim.de/durchwachsenes-wetter-am-tdot/huetter-h-28-eine-noch-von-zwei-flugfaehigen-exemplaren/
- https://www.osv-ch.org/hb-223-huetter-h-28/
- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php?code=714
- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeurs-construction_int.php?n=10&langue=fr
- https://www.ig-albatros.ch/fotos-videos/fotogalerie/schweizer-segelflugzeuge/diverse-konstrukteure/h%C3%BCtter-h28
- there are dozens more....
- Hardcopy publications;
- Title: The Worlds Vintage Sailplanes 1908-45
- Author: Martin Simons
- Date: 1986
- Publisher: Kookaburra Technical Publications
- ISBN: 0 85880 046 2.
- Quote: "...the H-28 may be regarded as the direct ancestor of one of the most successful glass-fibre sailplanes of modern times."
- Title: Drei Welten Ein Leben.
- SubTitle: Prof Dr Ulrich W. Hütter - Flugzeugkonstrukteur, Windkraft-Pionier, Professor an der Universität Stuttgart.
- Author: Heiner Dörner.
- Date: 2003
- Publisher: Heilbronn.
- Quote: "Hochgeshwindigkeits-Segelflugzeug Hütter H28"
- Title: Sailplane & Gliding 1974
- Article: First Vintage International at the Wasserkuppe
- Author: A. E. Slater
- Quote: "Dr Wolfgang Hütter, father of the H17, H28, Goevier and the Libelle, standing by the nose of his Hütter 28, Photo: Chris Wills"
- Title: Vintage Glider Club News Summer 1990, pg 4
- Article: Wolfgang Hütter Obituary
- Author: Chris Wills / Peter Selinger
- Quote: "The first H 28 was built in incredibly short time, patronised by Graf Kinsky, in an ideal workshop in 1934 in Austria."
- Title: Vintage Glider Club News, Summer 1996, pg 7
- Article: Building the Huetter 28
- Author: Earle Duffin
- Quote: "H 28 III Dipl.-Ing. Wolfgang und Ulrich Hütter"
- Title: Vintage Glider Club News, Summer 2005, pg 18
- Article: Hutter 28 Piper at the gates of dawn
- Author: Paul Williams
- Quote: "The new design was called the H.28, so named after it's intended L/D".
- Title: Vintage Glider Club News, Spring 2008 pg 30
- Article: Curriculum Vitae of the Glider H28 HB-223
- Author: Lilly A. Grundbacher
- Quote: "The Family of Hütter H28 Gliders" 120.18.140.183 (talk) 08:10, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I don't see the magazine article mentioning that they got information from Wikipedia. Where does it say that? - Ahunt (talk) 00:00, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Circular reference. The magazine article used this Wikipedia page as the source for the Hü 28 label. The other references pre-date this Wikipedia article. Anyway, at least there's an explanation for the confusion around the naming of the aircraft. 120.18.149.241 (talk) 23:28, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Okay those are helpful. We also have a magazine article that calls it the Hütter Hü 28, Hütter H28 and Hutter 28, so I have added all of those. - Ahunt (talk) 13:24, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- As far as the designation goes, lacking a citable ref I have just added a note on the designation to the first line. As for the wing tip, the Soaring specifically says it has symmetrical tip, but there was only one glider example in the US and that one may have been non-standard and probably the one examined for the report - hard to say. Glider wing tips to get damaged in use and may have been repaired or replaced. I have qualified it further. - Ahunt (talk) 14:16, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
