Talk:Grand Slam (professional wrestling)/Archive 5

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WWE- Bret Hart

It has come to my attention the Bret Hart is a Grand Slam Champion under WWE's "New Format". You can clearly see in his "Championships and accomplishments" section (Bret_Hart#Championships_and_accomplishments) for both WWE and WCW that he meets the requirements shown.

January 26th, 1987 Bret Hart and Jim Neidhart win the Tag Team championship for the first time.

August 26, 1991 Bret Hart wins the Intercontinental Championship for the first time.

October 12, 1992 Bret Hart wins his First WWE Championship.

Now, Bret's United States title is up for grabs, but nonetheless, he still has won the WCW/WWE United States Championship, having even won it under both names. July 20, 1998 Bret Hart wins the WCW United States Championship, his first under the WCW name.

May 17, 2010, as little as a match it was, Bret Hart won the WWE United States championship, his first and only holding under the WWE name.

Bret's accomplishments clearly state that he has met the criteria. If he hasn't, I apologize, but if so the Accomplishments section is wrong, and that would also place him within 1 title win (hopefully) away from becoming a Grand Slam champion.

Thank you for your time.

24.209.31.136 (talk) 08:17, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Bret never won the WWE Tag Team Championship which was introduced on SmackDown in 2002, he won the WWF (World) Tag Team Championship which is part of the old format but not the new.LM2000 (talk) 08:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

We also only list active wrestlers who are a belt away. Otherwise we'd have to add in a few retired WWE superstars too. retched (talk) 03:48, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

If you only list active wrestlers then why are you listing Shawn Michael (retires) or Eddie Guerrero (deceased)?2001:16B8:208F:7300:89EB:2183:6DD5:ED96 (talk) 09:59, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

We used to list wrestlers who were one belt away, so Bret would meet that criteria. WWE has been good about listing their current format grand slam winners on WWE.com so we don't have to debate criteria anymore. They've never listed Bret Hart so we don't have to worry about it.LM2000 (talk) 10:08, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

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Should Dolph Ziggler be included?

He has all of the necessary singles championships for the "Current Format" section and has a Tag Title reign in the WWE. He is listed on the Triple Crown Championship article. The only reason I can find is that his Tag Title with the Spirit Squad was the now-Defunct World Tag Team Championship and the Current Format section only uses the Raw or Smackdown Tag Titles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.116.61.143 (talk) 18:07, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Ziggler requires the WWE/Universal and Raw/SmackDown tag titles. The WHC and WTT titles don’t count in the modern format. Drummoe (talk) 12:40, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

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WCW Grand Slam Champions

There should be a section for WCW Grand Slam champions. Would count titles defended from the start of the company in 1988 until it closed in 2001 and any title lineages that connect to a previous company/organization such as Jim Crockett promotions or the NWA. Example: Ric Flair held the NWA Mid Atlantic Television title in 1977, eleven years before WCW's existence, which is considered the same title with the same lineage as the WCW World Television title.

Proposed format:

Primary Championship: WCW World Heavyweight title, NWA World Heavyweight title, WCW International World Heavyweight title

Secondary Championship: WCW U.S./NWA U.S. title

Tag Team Championship: WCW World Tag Team/NWA World Tag Team titles

Tertiary Championship: WCW World TV/NWA World TV/NWA TV/NWA Mid-Atlantic TV title, WCW Hardcore title — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lunder42 (talk • contribs) 19:26, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

No. we cannot just make something up. It has to be in previously published reliable sources. Now, I vaguely recall people referring to the combination of World, US, Tag and TV titles as the WCW Grand Slam, but a) I still wouldn't add it without finding a reliable source stating such, and B) that does not include the hardcore title or the WCW International title (which was just bad booking that lasted too long, but I digress). oknazevad (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Shouldn't the World Heavyweight Title count?

In 2006, World Wrestling Entertainment stated, "Michaels was the first-ever Grand Slam Champion, capturing the European Championship once, the World Tag Team Championship four times, the Intercontinental Championship three times and the WWE and World Heavyweight Championships a total of four times." This indicates that WWE considers the World Heavyweight Championship to be an acceptable substitute for the WWF Championship (renamed the WWE Championship in 2002) in completing the Grand Slam. This, also from what i can find, the WWE have never actually stated that the WHC didnt count while it was being used in WWE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:2C0B:F00:552B:86DB:AF0A:206F (talk) 23:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Source? - Galatz^Talk 23:30, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

That source is already included when we describe the original format. We include WHC reigns for that format, just not the current format.LM2000 (talk) 03:46, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Should Benoit then be included in the "Original Format"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SKShoes (talk • contribs) 04:36, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

No. Benoit would've needed a Hardcore or European Championship reign under the original format and the WHC doesn't count for the new format.LM2000 (talk) 04:41, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Just in case it wasn't already obvious, WWE very clearly announced Rey Mysterio and Dolph Ziggler as only a Triple Crown Champion at Crown Jewel earlier. MarioFan78 (talk) 03:58, November 3, 2018 (UTC)

Kurt Angle is retired

So change under Modern Format his status to N/A (Retired) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.240.104.116 (talk) 13:30, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Sheamus

Sheamus won the WWE Championship, Intercontinental Championship, United States Championship, and both Raw and Smack Down Tag team Championships. These are all the major titles needed to be Grand slam Champion under modern rule. So why is he not listed one? Am sure WWE officially considers him as Grand Slam Champion. Dilbaggg (talk) 15:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

@Dilbaggg: When did he win Intercontinental? - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 15:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Oops my mistake. Wrote the same thing in Sheamus's article talk page. No need to respond there either. Dilbaggg (talk) 17:48, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

ROH reformat?

Since ROH are considering the Pure and 6-man championships as interchangeable for their Grand Slam, would it not make sense to list them as "Tertiary championships", so it read "Primary" (World), "Tag Team" (World Tag), "Secondary" (World TV), "Tertiary" (6-Man or Pure, either needed). Sorry, I'm no good with tables so can't show what I mean. 2A00:23C6:760A:7F01:71F9:DFD0:1F62:5DC (talk) 16:21, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Dolph Ziggler - Grand Slam Champ

Multiple reigns with WHC, IC, US, and Tag titles. All before the Universal Title was introduced. There needs to be another section for the time between European title and Universal title. 2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1 (talk) 18:03, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

He never held the right combo to be considered a grand slam winner. He needs one of the current world titles.LM2000 (talk) 18:30, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Which doesn't count? The WHC? if so then drop Christian and Booker T. 2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1 (talk) 22:36, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

He would have needed a European or Hardcore title win to be a grand slam winner with the WHC under the original criteria. WHC doesn't count for the revised criteria, although the US title does. All of the titles you've mentioned are part of the grand slam but they need to be in the right combo to count.LM2000 (talk) 23:00, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

there was almost 15 years between the retirement of the European title and the establishment of the universal title. but there was the us title as a replacement for the euro. Also listing the hardcore as a qualifier is insane. it was slightly more prestigious than the 24/at points 2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1 (talk) 23:12, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with basically everything you said but it's not up to us to make this stuff up. WWE does and we struggle to keep up with it.LM2000 (talk) 23:20, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

maybe Wikipedia could add a caregory for those who fall into this category 2603:7000:8401:463D:71F1:55C1:4733:4704 (talk) 00:04, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

No. "it's not up to us to make this stuff up." --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 21:55, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Bayley - Women's Grand Slam

Would this be evidence that WWE has established a Women's Grand Slam (Raw, SD, NXT, Women's Tag)?

Just askin'.

Vjmlhds (talk) 05:04, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

During the Survivor Series 2017 pre-show Charlotte called herself a Grand Slam champion (Raw, SD, NXT and Diva). That was not included, but this being written and published on their twitter is slightly better. It definitely meets the first 4 criteria in WP:TWITTER, but if it is the sole basis for inclusion, so I would think #5 would come into play. Its not an article, but its the sole basis for the entire sections inclusion. #5 is moot however because we have WP:SECONDARY sources mentioning it too [1] [2] [3] - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 13:24, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Galatz So if this is good to go, then someone (who is much better at making a chart than I am) can make a section/chart to acknowledge Bayley. Also, if she's a Slam winner, then the Triple Crown stuff is a moot point an not worth fussing over. Vjmlhds (talk) 13:49, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Done, but someone else feel free to edit any of the color changes I made to make room for adding NXT (thought the gold and yellow were too close), or other format changes. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 14:11, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

I know I'm just a simple anon, but if the "grand slam" is going to be recognized so should be the Triple Crown. (I'd actually argue against the Grand Slam as the NXT isn't a tertiary title, but the primary title of the minor brand, and they have their own version of the men's triple crown, already established. Including the NXT title in WWE accolades could get dicey if nxt women's tag titles ever get introduced and you have NXT and NXT UK titles you could group for a women's nxt triple crown...but I digress.)

The triple crown is the step prior to the grand slam, historically they formed by having three (triple crown) then four (grand slam) available titles.

Becky Lynch never won the NXT title, so if she wins the tag titles she would be a triple crown winner, but Bayley will still have done it first. Also, I think the Cathy Kelley stating in a press release that Bayley is the first female triple crown winner should hold more weight than a Grand Slam Champ tweet.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Firstly being an IP editor or registered user makes no difference. Second as to your points, Wikipedia is built based on WP:RS abd WP:SECONDARY sources are extremely important. I have provided three sources here that are unrelated to the WWE which state this is a grand slam, in addition to the WWE tweet. The WWE twitter account holds more weight than what Cathy Kelly states back stage, I am not sure what press release you are referring to, because as far as I am aware a backstage comment is not a press release. I provided a link to Charlotte claiming Diva, Raw and SmackDown makes a triple crown, but we have nothing other than that stating it. The Triple Crown and Grand Slam must be achieved independently, its not a one than another. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 16:44, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Oh and as for the term Tertiary being used, it is open to other suggestions. One of the definitions from webster is of, relating to, or being higher education, being as NXT is the WWE equivalent of "higher education" I felt it was appropriate, but we could always just make it 3 singles and tag. Its always wikipedia policy to wait to add things, its better to be missing something than risk having something wrong included. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 16:54, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Alright, press release wasn't a good term...but WWE also tweeted the same video

https://mobile.twitter.com/WWE/status/1130329317718650881

And here is a secondary source

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/5-things-you-missed-at-money-in-the-bank-2019/ss-AABBbRp#image=3

WWE often has these videos which aren't really in the WWE Universe (the odd aspect of professional wrestling where its the fine line between a sport or a TV show). The example I gave about Charlotte and the women saying they are in the Royal Rumble last year, all appears in their videos but did not apply to the reality of their shows. (I am using these two since both involved previous discussions on WP.) Due to this their backstage WWE.com videos fail under WP:VIDEOREF. Sportskeeda is unfortunately not a RS under WP:PW/RS. I have looked and cannot find anything other than them (which the MSN link is) to mention it. If you have something from a RS that discusses it, that is very different. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 17:07, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

I’ve noticed some back and forth edits from Vjmlhds and JDC808 about the NXT Women’s Championship being the secondary/tertiary singles championship for the women’s Grand Slam. It makes no sense for the women’s Triple Crown and Grand Slam format to be the exact same format. That’s just a Triple Crown. Triple Crown and Grand Slam are two different things to accomplish. Drummoe (talk) 08:13, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Well, JDC is right. No source includes the NXT titles as part of the grand slam. I made a quick research in WWE.com [4] but the text says " the victory also made Bayley the first Superstar to ever hold the Raw Women’s Championship, the SmackDown Women’s Championship and the WWE Women’s Tag Team Championship — the Women’s Grand Slam, if you will." Wrestlers always make claims during their promos, but it's necessary being recognized by the promotion. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:58, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

@Drummoe: You're right that it doesn't make sense, but that's what WWE's sources say. WWE have confirmed that both the Triple Crown and Grand Slam are those three titles, but have not included any other in their recognition for the Grand Slam. We may actually be wrong in saying the women's Grand Slam is an actual accomplishment (all we have to go on are a Tweet from WWE that says Bayley is a Grand Slam winner but fails to acknowledge which titles, and the WWE.com source that I provided and HHH Pedrigree quoted where it says "the Women's Grand Slam, if you will"). The thing is though, and Vjmlhds seems to not understand this, it's not for us to decide that the NXT Women's Championship is included in the Grand Slam when the WWE themselves have yet to acknowledge or confirm its inclusion. --JDC808 ♫ 01:25, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

So are we basically making the decision for WWE and including the NXT title, or what? --JDC808 ♫ 00:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

0 sense to it, it will just make wikipedia more "unreliable" making up a non existent accomplishment based on ideas by editors , or some twitter rant by a single star, if WWE cites there is such a think then only should it be added, other wise not, thats just my view. Dilbaggg (talk) 08:00, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I heard my name being called, so I'll chime in - I added a story in the Calgary Sun newspaper written by Natalya Neidhart where she specifically lists the Raw, SD, NXT, and Women's Tag Team Titles as being the components of the Grand Slam as a reference. So this isn't a "twitter rant" or original research. The Calgary Sun had hometown girl Nattie serve as a special correspondent to write about the MITB event. That's as good a source as any. Vjmlhds (talk) 01:49, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

That just sounds like a similar case to Charlotte Flair saying such and such titles made her a Triple Crown and Grand Slam champion, which WWE did not recognize, and thus far, they haven't recognized Natalya's claim either. That's the issue. We need an actual WWE source confirming the titles, not just a wrestler saying it. The one that we do have does not include the NXT title. --JDC808 ♫ 07:56, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

I also think we are taking a tweet out of context. There was absolutely no mention of the NXT Championship anywhere near the Bayley tweet. Let's not forget that the FCW Grand Slam consists of winning 3 championships, i.e every title available. Bayley completed the Triple Crown but also won every title available in WWE, i.e a Grand Slam. I don't think this was meaning two completely separate categories. I find it especially hard to believe given how WWE treats the main roster and NXT as two completely separate entities. "Samoa Joe has never won a title since coming to WWE two years ago" and many statements like that heavily imply they are completely separate, no different than FCW was. This would also make the grand slam impossible to anyone that failed to win a developmental title so that's another reason why I don't think this is legit. MARIO^Fan78 21:11, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

As I don't have this saved in my watchlist, I kind of forgot about this discussion, but are we ever gonna come to some kind of consensus on this issue? There's still no official recognition from WWE that they recognize the NXT Women's Championship for the Grand Slam (if the women's Grand Slam is an actual accomplishment, yet). --JDC808 ♫ 11:20, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, WWE Shop has just come out with a Bayley "Grand Slam Champion" T-Shirt where all 4 titles are shown (as well as the MITB case). Vjmlhds (talk) 22:18, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I can concede to that. --JDC808 ♫ 09:12, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

So, are we now arguing the MITB is part of the Grand Slam? I think that's just a shirt with everything Bayley has accomplished in addition to the Grand Slam label they designated in this article: They've only offhand referred to the accomplishment as a Grand Slam, and have meanwhile made two official statements with custom pictures (for Bayley and Alexa) calling the same achievement a triple crown. Tldr; I think its two different names for the same accomplishment... and so does WWE. MARIO^Fan78 02:38, 26 August 2019 (UTC)