Talk:Gerda Wegener

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 June 2020 and 10 July 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sarita3940. Peer reviewers: Fernbush.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:18, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Edits

I edited this article by mostly reorganizing categories and adding citations. The places that are in need of citing are now marked so finding where the information is from can be highlighted. Wegener's section about her artistic career was expanded the most and added "Styles and Influences". Before, I felt like the page barely mentioned her work and focused on her relationship with Lili more than anything. This is also why I made Lili a sub-header in "Personal Life". Here is the link to the sandbox I worked on. User:Sarita3940/sandbox —Preceding undated comment added 23:19, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Sources

Here I have some sources I was thinking about using. Does anyone have any ideas about them? https://www.biography.com/artist/gerda-wegener https://awarewomenartists.com/en/artiste/gerda-wegener/ https://awarewomenartists.com/en/magazine/gerda-wegener/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarita3940 (talk • contribs) 13:12, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Dates and ages don't add up

The article says she was born in 1886 and married in 1904 when she was 19, but if the birth year is right she did not turn 19 until 1905. One of the numbers must be wrong. 99.192.91.107 (talk) 17:03, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Names

Wikipedia has policies about the use of names, which need to be applied here. One is that we don't refer to people by their first names alone (which the article did extensively) unless necessary for clarification, such as when talking about two people with the same surname. Referring to people by their first names suggests an inappropriate level of familiarity (done especially often to women). For women who change their name due to marriage, it's common to use whatever surname they used at the time in talking about various parts of their life, which is what I've done here. As the article title indicates, she is best known by her first spouse's surname, so when in doubt that's the best surname to use. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:37, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Names continued

The following sentence seems awkward and misleading: She met fellow artist Lili Elbe (then known as Einar Wegener, and identified as male) at art school.

She in fact met Einar Wegener, his legal name, and the name he was using at the time. The previous writer above states that, in cases of name change the name in use at the time should be used to describe the event. I agree, as otherwise it leads to a confusing narrative. I would also suggest that in referring to his gender, the pronoun for the gender he had at that time should be used, and then at some later point the feminine pronoun should be used after her transition to a woman, or perhaps after her self-identification as a woman. See the article on Cat Stevens, who was known by three different names. It smoothly makes the transition of name usage at every step, in a way that is clear to the reader.

Here's the Wikipedia Manual of Style (MOS) on changed names: If a person is named in an article in which they are not the subject, they should be referred to by the name they were using at the time of the mention rather than a name they may have used before or after the mention. However, see MOS:IDENTITY. So, a pope's personal name (for example, Albino Luciani instead of Pope John Paul I) is used when referring to the life of the pope prior to being elevated to the papacy but not afterwards.

Here's what MOS:IDENTITY has to say about Gender Identity when Referring to the person in other articles: Generally, do not go into detail over changes in name or gender presentation unless they are relevant to the passage in which the person is mentioned. Use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis.

The MOS sections on changed names is very clear. The gender identity section gives further guidance, emphasising that context and relevance are important. In the case at hand, the context is Gerda Gottlieb meeting the man she is to marry, at a time when his gender was not publicly questioned, and when he was only known to be using one name: Einar Wegener. So his original name and gender identification is relevant.

Therefore, I propose to change the section of the article on Lili Elbe to refer to her as Einar Wegener for events when that was his name, and to use Lili Elbe to refer to her after her transition, as per Wikipedia policy.

Jaywilson (talk) 01:13, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Your proposal to switch genders mid-article is directly contradicted by Wikipedia policy. It's the project's understanding that a trans person does not "change gender", but rather at transition they begin to present themselves as the gender they were all along. In other words, Lili Elbe was never male, but was merely (incorrectly) identified as male. Names are a different matter, because people do as a matter of fact change their names. But the guidance suggesting we use "the name they were using at the time of the mention" is intended for passing references, to avoid confusing explanations about a name someone would use at another time in their life. But in this case, we'd have to do that in the very next paragraph, and Gerda lived with her for years under the name "Lili Elbe". It seems pointless not to explain it up front. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 16:23, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Inconsistencies when compared to other Wiki articles

Section Lili Elbe mentions that Lili Elvenes (see Names) died of complications of the sex reassignment surgery when the article on Elvenes quotes a surgical revision which might have been the also mentioned uterus transplant. The article on the Movie "the Danish Girl" says she died from complications with the uterus transplant (Section Historical accuracy) The same section (Danish Girl/Historical accuracy) reports G.Wegener in Italy and already married at the time of Elvenes's death while this one assumes the event as reason for Wegener's move to Italy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.90.243.85 (talk • contribs)

Year of birth

As already mentioned by 99.192.91.107 in December 2015, the year is probably wrong. Sources on Wikidata say 1885. Gumruch (talk) 21:37, 16 February 2019 (UTC)