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Talk:Georgi Sugarev

Latest comment: 10 years ago by Jingiby in topic Lede
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IMRO= Internal MACEDONIAN Revolutionary Organisation--> there is no Bulgarian in any letter of its name, naturally there was another movement that was a product of Bulgarian authorities in that time - Bulgaria made another IMRO that in fact was not the first and original IMRO but was a fraction that wanted to take over Macedonia in to Bulgarian hands. I can not understand how can Wikipedia do this bending of history in favor of Bulgaria, and not in the favor of the truth!?

The deletion of the term Bulgarian in this article and its substitution with Macedonian is nationalistic POV

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Throughout the Middle Ages and until the early 20th century, there was no clear formulation or expression of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity. The Slavic speaking majority in the Region of Macedonia had been referred to (both, by themselves and outsiders) as Bulgarians, and that is how they were predominantly seen since 10th,[1][2][3] up until the early 20th century.[4] It is generally acknowledged that the ethnic Macedonian identity emerged in the late 19th century or even later.[5][6][7][8][9][10] However, the existence of a discernible Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed.[11][12][13][14][15] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed.[16][17] According to some researchers, by the end of the war a tangible Macedonian national consciousness did not exist and bulgarophile sentiments still dominated in the area, but others consider that it hardly existed.[18] After 1944 Communist Bulgaria and Communist Yugoslavia began a policy of making Macedonia into the connecting link for the establishment of new Balkan Federative Republic and stimulating here a development of distinct Slav Macedonian consciousness.[19] With the proclamation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia as part of the Yugoslav federation, the new authorities also started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among parts of its population.[20] In 1969 also the first History of the Macedonian nation was published. The past was systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians and generations of students were tought the pseudo-history of the Macedonian nation.[21]

References

  1. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2000, ISBN 1850655340, p. 19-20.
  2. ^ Средновековни градови и тврдини во Македонија, Иван Микулчиќ, Македонска академија на науките и уметностите — Скопје, 1996, стр. 72.
  3. ^ Formation of the Bulgarian nation: its development in the Middle Ages (9th-14th c.) Academician Dimitŭr Simeonov Angelov, Summary, Sofia-Press, 1978, pp. 413-415.
  4. ^ Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe, Southeast Europe (CEDIME-SE) - "Macedonians of Bulgaria", p. 14.
  5. ^ Krste Misirkov, On the Macedonian Matters (Za Makedonckite Raboti), Sofia, 1903: "And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?"
  6. ^ Sperling, James; Kay, Sean; Papacosma, S. Victor (2003). Limiting institutions?: the challenge of Eurasian security governance. Manchester, UK: Manchester University Press. p. 57. ISBN 978-0-7190-6605-4. Macedonian nationalism Is a new phenomenon. In the early twentieth century, there was no separate Slavic Macedonian identity
  7. ^ Titchener, Frances B.; Moorton, Richard F. (1999). The eye expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman antiquity. Berkeley: University of California Press. p. 259. ISBN 978-0-520-21029-5. On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. ... The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.
  8. ^ Kaufman, Stuart J. (2001). Modern hatreds: the symbolic politics of ethnic war. New York: Cornell University Press. p. 193. ISBN 0-8014-8736-6. The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. ... According to the new Macedonian mythology, modern Macedonians are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great's subjects. They trace their cultural identity to the ninth-century Saints Cyril and Methodius, who converted the Slavs to Christianity and invented the first Slavic alphabet, and whose disciples maintained a centre of Christian learning in western Macedonia. A more modern national hero is Gotse Delchev, leader of the turn-of-the-century Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which was actually a largely pro-Bulgarian organization but is claimed as the founding Macedonian national movement.
  9. ^ Rae, Heather (2002). State identities and the homogenisation of peoples. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 278. ISBN 0-521-79708-X. Despite the recent development of Macedonian identity, as Loring Danforth notes, it is no more or less artificial than any other identity. It merely has a more recent ethnogenesis - one that can therefore more easily be traced through the recent historical record.
  10. ^ Zielonka, Jan; Pravda, Alex (2001). Democratic consolidation in Eastern Europe. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 422. ISBN 978-0-19-924409-6. Unlike the Slovene and Croatian identities, which existed independently for a long period before the emergence of SFRY Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944. Again unlike Slovenia and Croatia, the very existence of a separate Macedonian identity was questioned—albeit to a different degree—by both the governments and the public of all the neighboring nations (Greece being the most intransigent)
  11. ^ Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1995, Princeton University Press, p.65, ISBN 0691043566
  12. ^ Stephen Palmer, Robert King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian question,Hamden, Connecticut Archon Books, 1971, p.p.199-200
  13. ^ The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939-1949, Dimitris Livanios, edition: Oxford University Press, US, 2008, ISBN 0199237689, p. 65.
  14. ^ The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1850654921, p. 67.
  15. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, 9781850652380, p. 101.
  16. ^ The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1850654921, p. 67.
  17. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, 9781850652380, p. 101.
  18. ^ The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0691043566, pp. 65-66.
  19. ^ Europe since 1945. Encyclopedia by Bernard Anthony Cook. ISBN 0815340583, pg. 808.[1]
  20. ^ Djokić, Dejan (2003). Yugoslavism: Histories of a Failed Idea, 1918-1992. C. Hurst & Co. Publishers. pp. 122 .
  21. ^ Yugoslavia: a concise history, Leslie Benson, Palgrave Macmillan, 2001, ISBN 0333792416, p. 89.

Lede

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Latest comment: 10 years ago12 comments2 people in discussion

It says:

Georgi Kostov Sugarev was a Bulgarian revolutionary, vojvoda of the Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization. In the Republic of Macedonia he is considered an ethnic Macedonian.

What is that supposed to mean? In Republic of Macedonia he is considered Macedonian but otherwise, he is a Bulgarian. Firstly, only an individual may choose how to identify and it is not for other nations to make alternate choices. So, if is is documented that he ever declared his ethnicity, that is what it needs to be. If it were Macedonian, simply move it to the opening line. If it were Bulgarian, then take off what ethnic Macedonians think because it is unimportant. He can still be considered a national hero, an important figure and the like but the suggestion that he is one ethnicity and is considered something else by that someone else leaves the topic unclear and open to debate. --Zavtek (talk) 20:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC) Blocked sock:Evlekis.Reply

Hi Zavtek. The answer of your question you have found yourself: In Republic of Macedonia he is considered Macedonian but otherwise, he is a Bulgarian. By the yaw all topics related to IMRO-revolutionaries are written in this manner. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 12:29, 14 November 2013 (UTC)Reply
You'll find in Macedonia they even refer to Cyril and Methodius as makedonci but that is just sections of the population. The intelligent section of the population is not in any form of denial, so I think it is best to state that the man is "an important figure of Macedonian identity". During his time there was still the strong pro-Bulgarian element of Macedonian ideology. Zavtek (talk) 18:58, 15 November 2013 (UTC) Blocked sock:Evlekis.Reply
What means "an important figure of Macedonian identity"? This man was with Bulgarian identity. Jingiby (talk) 19:44, 15 November 2013 (UTC)Reply
In Macedonia, makedonec means anything the nation wants it to. Since this is an early IMORO figure, the individual represented some form of Macedonian identity. The organisation was predominantly anti-Serbian but contained two wings, one which favoured an all out Macedonian state and one which sought to unite with Bulgaria, similar to the Yugoslav federations which would come later. Sugarev was with the latter (I am presuming) which confirms he will have likely chosen Bulgarian ethnicity but represented a Macedonian perspective thus being part of the IMORO. I believe there did exist a third ideological take within today's Macedonia which is that someone identifying as Bulgarian may have only supported a Bulgarian united state with no Macedonian element at all - and of course there were people identifying as Serb wishing to be incorporated into the Serbian state gaining power from the north. Things in the 19th century were very fluid in that territory. Zavtek (talk) 05:45, 16 November 2013 (UTC) Blocked sock:Evlekis.Reply
The organization was predominantly anti-Ottoman, then anti-Greek and last anti-Serbian. This people had Bulgarian national identity and Macedonian regional identity. I strongly recommend you to read the article Gotse Delchev where this process of transformation of identity is well described and properly sourced. Then maybe also the article Macedonian nationalism and at the end the Macedonian Question. And then we can discuss the issue again. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 11:34, 16 November 2013 (UTC)Reply
I don't need to read those things, I'm familiar with the general basics of them. For the time being I have taken out this notion of Macedonians considering Sugarev Macedonian until such time that we know exactly what we want to say about them, because to keep in gives the impression of two-way friction. Bad for Macedonians as it makes them look like a nation in denial of fact; bad for Bulgarians because it gives rise to doubt over the universal recognition of something they cherish. I hope my idea proves suitable. Zavtek (talk) 18:21, 16 November 2013 (UTC) Blocked sock:Evlekis.Reply
You must be familiar also with a lot of academic sources and their conclusions about the issue. Your personal impressions and your opinion are irrelevant for this article. Jingiby (talk) 18:35, 16 November 2013 (UTC)Reply
There is no "personal impressions" and "opinion". You don't follow my point do you? Sugarev could only have identified as Bulgarian or Macedonian. If it were Macedonian then that needs to go in place of Bulgarian. If it were Bulgarian then you need sources to show how another nation believed him to be theirs even in spite of documented facts, otherwise we are accusing the Macedonians of rewriting history and we have no proof of this. Zavtek (talk) 19:30, 16 November 2013 (UTC) Blocked sock:Evlekis.Reply
Now, you have got all it into the article. Regs. Jingiby (talk) 09:04, 17 November 2013 (UTC)Reply
In a word, PERFECT. So thanks. Zavtek (talk) 11:10, 17 November 2013 (UTC) Blocked sock:Evlekis.Reply
No problems. Jingiby (talk) 11:22, 17 November 2013 (UTC)Reply
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