Talk:Galtung (noble family)

old Galte from Ornes and Mel vs. younger Galtung from Torsnes

The article is time and time again reverted to stating that the male line died out in 1413. This is an error that has occurred throughout history as a direct result of the people from Torsnes (young Galtung) claiming to be descendants from Sigurd Galte (Galtung), which was proved to be incorrect by professor Lars Hamre's discovery of new source material whilst archiving old papers for Norway in Copenhagen in 1950.

source: https://genealogi.no/produkt/nst-bind-12/, p. 97-120 (Journal of Norwegian Genealogy)

The papers Lars Hamre found stated the linage of Sigurd at Torsnes to be son of Guttorm Kalvsson at Torsnes, not being Sigurd Gautsson Galte at Hatteberg as previously claimed. The number 1413 is derived from the death of Gaute Eiriksson, whom was the owner of most of the Galte-estate. Though, that number then actually ought to be 1412, not 1413.

https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaute_Eriksson

He was however not the end of the male old Galte-line. Gaute Eiriksson was the main proprietor due to the head of the family governor of the Feroe Islands Greip Ivarsson (ca. 1355-1400) having pawned his estates to him to keep it in the family whilst raising money to buy ships to save the Feroes from foreign invasion. Saving the Feroes was unsuccessful, but Greip's son Ogmund (Åjmund) Greipsson Galte passed on the male line at Norheimsund in Kvam. The death of Gaute Eiriksson was hence irrelevant to the male line dying out.

Locally the farmers of Hardanger long claimed that the people of Torsnes had a very weak claim to the Galt-name, as other families locally had a more direct linage from the old Galts than did the Torsnes people, hence the Torsnes people became locally loathed for claiming to be the only ones of a clan which actually had a lot of descendants. Try proving you are the descendants of the Galts to the actual descendants of the Galts, without being made a laughing stock. The old Galte-line is called clan Mel (Melsætten) because they lived at present day Barony of Rosendal for generations, being barons there before the Danish made it into a barony of their own. The barony of Rosendal was made out of the Galte estates (farms) Mel and Hatteberg (actually also Eik, but Mel and Hatteberg were main "clan seats") as the core.

It was also long claimed that the old Galte had their seats at Ænes in Maurangerfjorden (arm of the Hardangerfjord), but this was an error made my the authority historian P. A. Munch whom managed to lead all other historians (but the Mel-clan locals themselves) astray. He translated Órnes (Aurnes) into Ænes, not realizing this put the old Galte origin in the wrong fjord at the really wrong place. This made it easier for the Torsnes people to claim to be old Galte, because Ænes is close to Torsnes whilst Ornes is remotely located all the way up in Sogn. Hence, the Urnes stave church has only recently been set in context with the Galte family, despite Orne meaning boar and a descendants of the Galts Gaut of Ornesi being mentioned in context with the church in Sverre's saga. Sverri's saga is contemporary or near-contemporary with the events it describes, hence a relatively reliable source. The church itself features several graffiti runes naming members of the old Galte family.

A friend and relative of clan Mel (the old Galte) was outspoken about this in the age of when the Torsnespeople became brevadel (briefadel) by Danish recognition in 1648. The bear/king of Brattabø Bergen Larsson of clan (ætt) Losna (1626-1713) helped buy back many farms from the to a large extent Danish-descending younger Galtungs at Torsnes –

"Alle segnene som lever om han, syner at han var raust og storlagd, sjølvrådig men, men rettlinja, uforferda og framtøk. (...) Han hjelpte og andre til å kjøpa gardene sine i denne tidi, truleg ikkje minst for å erta frenden sin i Vik, den jordsnake og småskårne lensmannen Johannes Vik. Berge var ein ættbyrdig bonde. (...) Han gjorde narr av Galtungane på Torsnes som tok mot dansk adelskap, for sjølv hadde han god nok adelskap heime påstod han. Det var vel difor han tok Losna-våpnet til bumerke."

meaning –

"He also helped others to buy their farms in this time, probably very much so to tease his friend in Vik, the property-greedy and bitter sheriff Johannes Vik. Berge was a noble (clan-worthy) farmer. He made fun of the Galtungs at Torsnes who accepted danish nobility, for he himself had a more than good enough nobility at home, he claimed. That was probably why he took the clan Losna arms as his monogram (bumerke).

Source for text: https://www.nb.no/items/69cf95cf549ae96c4ea0e72b238d67d3?page=559&searchText=brattabøkongen

The male line called clan Mel that is the old Galte is still intact as of 2023, with hundreds of descendants both in Europe and the United States. I know you don't like Geni as a source on wikipedia, but for the sake of showing how many descendants there are (and geni only lists a fraction of the descendants, myself I have lists of more) I'm posting here in Talk anyway.

https://www.geni.com/people/Greip-på-Augestad/6000000004878449112

And as a last reconciliation of the old Galte vs. young Galtung, there is a chance the Galtung are real Galts, but then through other relatives than Sigurd Galtung as claimed for the last couple of centuries up until 1950. Their link to Norheim and Aga means they were probably related, just not as directly as they themselves claimed to be to gain the Galtung name.

It is an argument, as it has always been, of who's more Galt than the other, with what is now known as Galtungs apparently having the weakest claim, yet none of the other Galts are using the name due to the 1648 error of recognizing someone who was not. It makes no sense to write an article about Galte passing on Galtungs as their descendants, when they are the only ones proven not to be descends from the old noble family which is said to have founded Norway twice (first by king Nor and king Gor, then again by Harald Fairhair).

The problematic state of the history of the Galtungs has been debated time and time again, and as Jo Rune Ugulen states in the introduction of his work on the clan –

"I realiteten skulle det ikkje ha vore naud-synt å ta opp den filologiske problemstillinga som her vert drøfta ein gong til, ettersom dei resultata om Ornes kontra Ænes som Hallvard Magerøy (1916–1994) kom fram til i 1988 tildels er uomtvistelege. Men det har vore freista fleire gonger å så tvil om Magerøy sine resultat, mellom anna av Einar Balle (1927–1990) og Anders Stølen (1911–1998). Felles for både Balle og Stølen tykkjest å vera ei merkelegmotvilje mot å flytta far til Jon og Munan Gautssøner frå Ænes i Kvinnherad i Sunnhordland til Ornes i Hafslo (no i Luster) i Sogn. Etter Stølens artikkel i 1996, kom Trygve Kiberg året etter med ein artikkel der han utan atterhald godtek Magerøys argument om Ornes kontra Ænes, men har problem med andre av konklusjonane hans. I siste redaksjon av Norsk biografisk leksikon er formuleringane så uklåre i artiklane om Arnbjørn Jonsson og Gaut Jonsson på Mel at det kan sjå ut til at det på same tid har eksistert både ein Gaut på Ænes og ein Gaut på Ornes, begge med kvar sine to søner Jon og Munan."

meaning –

"In reality it should not be necessary to bring up the philological problem that is discussed here once more, as the results of Ornes versus Ænes which Hallvard Magerøy (1916-1994) concluded in 1988 are indisputable. However there have been incidents of people doubting Magerøy's results, among them Einar Balle (1927-1990) and Anders Stølen (1911-1998). What they have in common is a strange reluctance against moving the father of Jon and Munan, sons of Gaut, from Ænes in Sunnhordland to Ornes in Sogn. After Stølen's article of 1996, Trygve Kiberg came the following year with an article where he without reservation accepts Magerøy's argument of Ornes versus Ænes, but is troubled by some of his other conclusions. In the last edition of Norwegian biographical leksikon the formulations are so vague about Arnbjørn Jonsson and Gaut Jonsson of Mel, it would seem that there was a Gaut of Ænes and a Gaut of Ornes simultaneously, both with sons called Jon and Munan."

source: https://www.academia.edu/14329900/Kring_ætta_på_Ornes_og_Mel_i_mellomalderen_samt_noko_om_Rane_Jonssons_etterkomarar_og_slekta_Hjerne_Hjärne_ (Jo Rune Ugulen, 2004 Norsk slektshistorisk tidsskrift)

Which brings us to the real Galt(ung) family, the clan Mel –

"problemstillingar med omsyn til dei seinare ættledda av dette ættekomplekset viste det seg at mykje av den tidlegare forskninga ikkje var god nok. Dermed vart am- bisjonen å skriva ei komplett framstilling av soga til ættene på Ornes, Mel og Hatteberg frå mellomalderen og fram til kring 1600, inkludert ein bolk om opphavet til den såkalla yngre Galtung-ætta.»"

meaning –

"Issues with consideration of later clan generations showed that the earlier research was not good enough. Therefore, the ambition became to write a complete representation of the saga of the clans at Ornes, Mel and Hatteberg from the Middle Ages to about 1600, in addition to a section about the origin of the so-called younger Galtung-clan."

source: also https://www.academia.edu/14329900/Kring_ætta_på_Ornes_og_Mel_i_mellomalderen_samt_noko_om_Rane_Jonssons_etterkomarar_og_slekta_Hjerne_Hjärne_ (Jo Rune Ugulen, 2004 Norsk slektshistorisk tidsskrift) Silja998 (talk) 14:35, 19 January 2023 (UTC)