Talk:Fortition

Merger?

Consonant mutation, Consonant gradation, Spirantization, Lenition, Fortition and Fortis and lenis all seem to be about the same kind of phenomenon. Perhaps they should be merged. FilipeS 21:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I vote for separate articles; together with insertion, deletion, metathesis, assimilation, dissimilation, etc., fortition and deletion form major categories for sound change. --Kjoonlee 19:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Consonant mutation and consonant gradation are important specific cases, and fortis vs lenis is not really the same as forition vs lenition. Spirantization looks like a good candidate for merging into the lenition article, tho. --Tropylium (talk) 22:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Merged spirantization. That was a no-brainer. kwami (talk) 06:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Wrong symbol?

In the table of Gaelic examples, what are the diacritics above g and b? If they are the voicelss diacritic shouldn't they be below the characters?

Marquetry28 (talk) 20:38, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, on the b. Fixed. On the g, it would interfere with the descender. kwami (talk) 21:43, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah they need changing [b] > [p] etc. I'll do that. These date back to the time when I used broad phonemic rather than close for Gaelic. Akerbeltz (talk) 23:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Hard to see the difference in the symbols

"The extremely common approximant sound [j] is sometimes subject to fortition; since it is a semivowel, almost any change to the sound other than simple deletion would constitute fortition. It has changed into the voiced fricative [ʝ]" . Okay, here in this font, [ʝ] and [j] are distinguishable, but in the text they look the same, actually like [i], since the tails almost merge with the left brackets. Is there some way of cleaning this up?Kdammers (talk) 00:59, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Added a few thin spaces. Does this help? --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 15:06, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Some. Kdammers (talk) 12:10, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Spanish examples problematic

"The Spanish voiced stops/fricatives b d y g are strengthened to stops [b d ɟʝ ɡ] initially, but also after nasals." This is problematic in two ways. First, what does y represent? It is meant to be /j/? Second, the alternation of [b]~[β] type ([b]ino 'wine', de [β]ino 'of wine') is customarily taken to be a case of weakening (/b/ → [β]), not strengthening (/β/ → [b]). Clarification of y and references for fortition are necessary. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 15:45, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the statement, feel free to re-add it with a source.--Megaman en m (talk) 16:41, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Based on my knowledge of Spanish, I'm certain that "y" is meant to be /j/, which is often pronounced [ʝ] or [ɟʝ], at least in some dialects (as I've heard speakers do), and often labelled /ʝ/. Also, the sound at the beginning of the Spanish word "vino" /bino/ must be at least somewhat the result of fortition, since this sound was a /w/ in Classical Latin. "B" and "v" are pronounced the same in Spanish, which probably means that the ancestral /b/ underwent lenition in certain environments, and the ancestral /v/ or whatever sound it was underwent fortition in certain environments, i.e., they merged.DubleH (talk) 16:14, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the distinction between fortition and lenition being diachronic restructuring vs. synchronic allophony. In the case of the initial consonant of vino, /w/ has restructured historically to /b/ (fortition). Ancestral initial /b/ is normally undisturbed historically (e.g. BĔNE > bien). The result is merger of erstwhile initial /w/ and /b/ as /b/, now subject to the synchronic allophonic rule /b/ → [β] (lenition). Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 16:38, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Germanic case

Wasn't fortition the case of final devoicement in German for -b; -d; -g endings? <Knab> /knap/; <Berg> /berk/.

Similar to the English strong pasts dreamt, learnt, spelled > spellt? ※ Sobreira ◣◥ ፧ (parlez)⁇﹖ 14:08, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Examples from Scottish Gaelic

what happened

why is there a reference that just says "t" for examples from scottish gaelic paper2222 (talk) 20:44, 17 August 2023 (UTC)