Talk:Formula One drivers from Germany

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Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I propose we merge Formula One drivers from East Germany into Formula One drivers from Germany. The main reason is that Formula One drivers from West Germany are covered in Formula One drivers from Germany and I don't see why East Germany should be treated differently. Afterall, if you are from East Germany you are from Germany.
SSSB (talk) 12:34, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Alternativly we could split this article and have a seperate article for Formula One driers from West Germany however I would prefer not to go down that route. The main reason for this is being that I am yet to come across a source that doesn't list east Germany, west Germany and unified German racing drivers under a central banner of German racing drivers (or formula one drivers from Germany). I therfore think it makes most sense to merge all German racing drivers together regardless of west German, east German or a unified Germany.
SSSB (talk) 10:03, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I have to oppose to a blanket merge. The situation is not as simple as you present. East Germany is the common name of an actual sovereign state, the German Democratic Republic that used to exist and it crucially had its own motorsports governing body. Some of these drivers were born during the existence of that state, were citizens of it and actually represented East Germany in Formula One. That's why we separated them and why it should remain as such.Tvx1 19:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@Tvx1:, okay, then what about my alternative proposal where we split Formula One drivers from Germany and have a page named Formula One drivers from West Germany. Again it makes no sense that we have one rule for East Germany and another for West.
SSSB (talk) 11:57, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Bit late to this one, but there really ought to be separate pages/categories for East Germany, West Germany, and Germany. Germany and West Germany are not the same thing. It's like saying Russia and the Soviet Union are the same country. Or Czechoslovakia and the Czech Republic. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:07, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Split proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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My rational is the same as for the merge proposal above but this time I am proposing a split as a solution. The rational is simple: Why do we have one rule for Formula One drivers from East Germany and another for West Germany. As Brentonbanquet points out above Germany, West Germany and East Germany are different and therefore it makes no sense why West German formula one drivers are bundled together with their unified germany counterparts but east Germans are kept seperate. West Germany was as different to a unified Germany as East Germany was. (pinging editors from merge proposal @Tvx1 and Bretonbanquet:).
SSSB (talk) 14:11, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Agree to a split. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Comment Again, the situation is not as simple as you present it. Basically, we have one rule for Formula One drivers from East Germany and another for West Germany because there situation is quite different. West Germany and unified Germany are not as different as East Germany and unified Germany are. What the English language world refers to as "East Germany" was a fully independent sovereign state called the German Democratic Republic. Crucially for our subject it had its own seperate motorsports governing body. The distinction between West Germany and Unified Germany isn't as black and white however. What's called "West Germany" in the English language world is the Federal Republic of Germany and that is actually what the unified country is still called to this day. What happened at the reunification is that the GDR was dissolved and thus ceased to exist as did all its institutions and its territory was simply added to the FRG. In fact (West) Germany even had one and the same president before and after reünification, Richard von Weizsäcker, who actually served from 1984 until 1994. Likewise motorsports was governed by one and the same german motorsport federation in West and Unified Germany. This federation was actually founded in 1947. It's for similar reasons that WP:FOOTY does not have seperate articles for the West Germany national football team and the Germany national football team.Tvx1 00:14, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

My take was always that Formula One drivers from x was a tidier way of saying Formula One drivers driving under nation x. As for the motorsport bodies, the motorsport bodies from East and West Germany were clearly merged (much as the country was merged) and it simply took the name of the west's governing body. That doesn't make the governing body the same. A unified Germany taking the official name of western germany doesn't make them any closer aligned than East and Unified Germany.
SSSB (talk) 09:09, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

The difference is not simply unified Germany taking the official name of Western Germany. There actually was continuity in almost everything. Same government, same president, same national anthem, same passports,... The lists goes on and on. All of those makes West Germany much closer alligned to unified Germany than the German Democratic to the unified country. And what you're basically suggesting is to split the article on "Formula One drivers from [the Federal Republic of] Germany" into an article on "Formula One drivers from [the Federal Republic of] Germany" and "Formula One drivers from [the Federal Republic of] Germany". Can you not see how little sense that makes? Again, take a look at how this is dealt with for other sports.Tvx1 11:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense because that isn't accurate. Germany may be considered the continuation of West Germany but the Formula One drivers from x series groups together drivers who represneted the same group. Vettel represents a unified Germany and therefore fits under "Formula One drivers from [the Federal Republic of] Germany [(1990-)" but Wolfgang von Trips only represented the western half of germany but no the eastern, he would therefore fit under "Formula One drivers from [the Federal Republic of] Germany [(1945-1990)" (a.k.a "Formula One drivers from West Germany")

Now the comparision with the football team doesn't work for the same reason. Formula One drivers from x don't form a team, they are simply a group of people who happen to represent the same country.

Now looking at other sports, its not as simple as you make out either. We have West Germany at the Olympics for example. To me it looks like there is no steadfast rule and it depends on the sport/competion in question.

To me this split still makes sense.
SSSB (talk) 12:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

@Tvx1: on a slightly unrelated note what would you then say about List of Formula One drivers#By country where West Germany is listed separately from Germany. Should that be reverted and merged together to match the consensus that's starting to develop here as well?
SSSB (talk) 08:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

@SSSB: To me, if the sources don't separate German from West German drivers, then neither should we. A7V2 (talk) 09:25, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

I would go for a similar approach here as taken at WP:FOOTY, since Formula One has taken a similar approach to its continuation of governing of the sport in pre-1990 FRG and post-1990 FRG. I would not split this article and just keep it dealing with the entire history of racing drivers representing the Federal Republic of Germany from 1950 until present. I would expand the prose though and make clear that the country was known as West Germany before 1990. I would keep the contemporary Grand Prix articles as such as West Germany was what the state was referred to as when they took part in those races. For an article like List of Formula One drivers#By country I would indeed merge the entries of Germany and West Germany and simply include both names in the country cell or keep only Germany and add a footnote to explain that the country was known as West Germany prior to 1990.Tvx1 12:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Oppose split. Mostly per what Tvx1 has said above. There was no such country as "West Germany", it is just a term used for convenience but in this particular case, there is no reason to use it (but that's not to say we can't have a redirect and a brief explanation). I know Wikipedia isn't considered a reliable source, but from German reunification: "The post-1990 united Germany is not a successor state, but an enlarged continuation of the former West Germany." As Tvx1 also points out, the organising clubs etc didn't change, and the actual country didn't change either. If there are reliable sources which split West Germany from Germany when considering statistics, then I suppose we should consider it, but otherwise I think that's unlikely since there were only a handful of East German drivers, and none of them actually drove a Formula 1 (as opposed to F2) car while representing East Germany. A7V2 (talk) 22:18, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

@A7V2: all the sources I've seen actually merge the stats for East, West and Unified German drivers under the single bracket of "german" which is why I originally proposed a merge (see above thread)08:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm not particularly against or in favour of such a merge. The main reasons I'd agree with a merge (so long as it's made clear which drivers were East German) is because the East German article is so short, and then there are a couple of drivers who defected so then wouldn't need to appear on both articles. As another advantage, it would hopefully satisfy everyone to have one article, and then make the distinction (West, East, unified) within the article. A7V2 (talk) 09:23, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

We should keep the article on drivers from East Germany separate as the DDR was a fully separate state. The low number of driver is not an argument for merging as such. In fact we have articles for countries which had even less drivers (e.g. Thailand). Also drivers who defected to the FRG and later represented that state can perfectly be mentioned in both articles. This isn't any different to other drivers who had a nationality change during their careers.Tvx1 12:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

It's clear that no consensus is forming here so I have withdrawn the request (as nom).
SSSB (talk) 09:26, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Formula One drivers from the United Kingdom which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:20, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Jochen Rindt, formal German citizen

Article with no words on Jochen Rindt. Rindt won races within an Austrian license but was a formal German citizen. Side note much appreciated. 2A02:810B:48C0:214C:F9E3:C939:1768:BFBA (talk) 19:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC)