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Talk:Football records and statistics in Spain/Archive 1

< Talk:Football records and statistics in Spain
Latest comment: 12 years ago by Coquidragon in topic Most successful clubs overall
Archive 1 Archive 2

Expansion

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Some records need to be added, for example, I have just linked from Lionel Messi's article to here for the youngest La Liga appearance and scorer (records which now belong to Bojan Krkić I believe). Can anyone dig up the sources for this? I think this article/list could become very interesting and well sourced. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 18:56, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The Intercities Fairs Cup victories

Latest comment: 14 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

The pages "Football records in England" and "Football records in Italy" include the victories of this cup (forerunner of the Uefa Cup, now Europa League). So also this page has to include them (Barcelona 3 victories, Valencia 2, Real Zaragoza 1). Physiology, 16:25 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I have include the fairs cup in the article, its an FIFA official competition (Congress of London in 1955), you can to verify this in official site of Real Zaragoza and Valencia CF (honours) and in FCB web in the in the paragraph of news, If someone needs sources I will incluire the pertinent links.--Sporting1905 (talk) 01:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Copa Eva Duarte is the forerunner to the Spanish SuperCup, it was organized by Real Federacion Española de Fútbol, its an official title. The trophy was given by Eva Duarte Perón and and of there it name.--Sporting1905 (talk) 01:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

They are not official ( see UEFA.com and LFP.es). --KSAconnect 01:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Fairs Cup isn't UEFA competition but is an official competition:

uefa.com: [1]: "Los dos equipos sólo se han enfrentado en una ocasión en competición oficial, en la primera ronda de la Copa de Ferias ..."

LFP: [2]: FCB Palmarés (Honours); 3 Copas de la UEFA: 1958,1960,1966 (Fairs Cup)

Two primary sources! --Sporting1905 (talk) 22:49, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

All you need, when you speak about Spanish Football, is Barcelona, not Real Madrid, because "El Barça es mes que un club". So in the Barcelona palmares is "The Fairs Cup", that it was more than an "unofficial Uefa competition".

I love Barça jerseys more than Ibrahimovic and I have a message for the Real Madrid fans. We must break the ass to you!!! Physiology, 09:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The UEFA Intertoto Cup

Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

And then (for KSA) you must insert the UEFA Intertoto Cup victories in the table, because it was an official UEFA compeetition. When the Fairs Cup started the UEFA did not enter in the project for 16 years (from 1955 to 1971). The trophy was consigned to the winning teams by the FIFA President of that period (Sir Stanley Rous). Physiology 14:40, 09 August 2009 (UTC)

Yah, I also think about that, but maybe it was one of tournament for qualifying to UEFA Cup.--KSAconnect 07:54, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the Intertoto Cup was a summer tournament, could you explain it to Dante Peruvian?

From RFEF statutes

Latest comment: 14 years ago16 comments9 people in discussion

1. Los Campeonatos Nacionales de Liga de Primera, Segunda, Segunda B y Tercera División (Spanish Football Championships from First to Third Divition).
2. El Campeonato de España/Copa de S.M. el Rey (Spanish Cup).
3. La Supercopa (Spanish Super Cup).
4. La Copa RFEF (Spanish League Cup).

Also, the entity recognise official UEFA and FIFA competitions as equivalent to "statal championships".

Where is included in that document the Fairs Cup as "official" competition?

As Fairs Cups is not an UEFA club competicion, RFEF not recognise Fairs Cup as "official" cup, sorry...--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 00:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

In fact, we are speaking of a competition recognized by FIFA, not by UEFA. We explained it at least one hundred times. I don't think you don't understand: more probably, you are only a troll. --79.45.155.132 (talk) 01:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Is not a FIFA competition. The fifa's jurisdiction is world-wide like Europe is the UEFA's jurisdiction and Spain = RFEF.--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 00:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

To IPs see UEFA Cup: All-time finals - UEFA.com

Fairs Cup


‘‘The UEFA Cup replaced the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in the 1971/72 season. The list of finals from that competition are listed below, but please note that the Fairs Cup is not considered a UEFA competition, and hence clubs' records in the Fairs Cup are not considered part of their European record.’’

NOTE: The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup also took place from 1955 to 1971 but not as an official UEFA competition.

Good luck.KSAconnect 10:06, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

In fact, we always spoke about FIFA website, not UEFA website. YOU are a vulgar vandal, WE use official and precise sources. We all know that Fairs wasn't UEFA's: it is evidently recognized by FIFA on the principle of its interventation in its organization (the situation is very similar, speaking of UEFA instead of FIFA, of the Toyota Cup). And, LPF reflects FIFA statements. --79.54.157.81 (talk) 10:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
So you depend on that point only which make all you edits based on personal research, simply Fairs cup is a comp. played in Europe which European teams (some teams are represent their city) so how can it be International trophy by FIFA (FIFA doesn't say it was official also, UEFA says : Fairs Cup are not considered part of their European record.KSAconnect 12:27, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
We all know that Fairs Cup was not a UEFA competition, nobody is saying this. We are speaking about FIFA sources, because Fairs Cup was organized by a committee involving FIFA (in fact, the cup was given by FIFA President).--95.237.154.148 (talk) 23:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
But it also was not a FIFA competition like Latin Cup, and you source doesn't include any sentence speak about it . And if it official as your idea, thin many competitions like Fairs Cup will be official. Fianal thing that FIFA recognize the "official competition" in international level only not continent as what Mr.Dantetheperuvian said in this talk that RFEF, the governing body of football in Spain ONLY recognise as "official football tournaments" at national level:

1. Los Campeonatos Nacionales de Liga de Primera, Segunda, Segunda B y Tercera División (Spanish Football Championships from First to Third Divition).
2. El Campeonato de España/Copa de S.M. el Rey (Spanish Cup).
3. La Supercopa (Spanish Super Cup).
4. La Copa RFEF (Spanish League Cup).

Also, the entity recognise official UEFA and FIFA competitions as equivalent to "statal championships". And please stop trying to make your idea is correct only, while ignoring the rest of the official source.KSAconnect 07:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The parallelism with Latin Cup is completely uncorrect. Latin Cup was organized by four national associations (RFEF, FFF, FIGC and FPF), while FIFA was completely excluded. We never said that Fairs Cup was official because RFEF said so, we are saying that RFEF (as UEFA and FIGC in other sources) says that Fairs was official because it reflects FIFA position. No problem agreeing with your position when you will find an official FIFA source saying that Fairs was a friendly competition. --95.237.152.169 (talk) 10:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Your source of FIFA does not show what you type here as Fairs Cup was official that the opposite UEFA, which shows it explicitly said that the tournament is not considered an official tournament or even within the European competition.KSAconnect 10:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
You lie. UEFA says Fairs was an official competition (Look news on 13 de enero de 2009); then, certainly it says that Fairs was not its own competition, because it was organized by a committee involving FIFA (and, by the way, in later Sixties the entrance criteria were based on official national league standings). In fact, FIFA gives to Barça its Fairs honours.
Have you got an official source confirming what you say, that Fairs Cup was a friendly competition? --95.236.155.239 (talk) 14:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Be polite while you talking, look at Fairs Cup article to know more. Also see FIFA.com to know that your only sources not represent FIFA under the map.

‘‘The list of clubs or the opinions expressed in the articles do not necessarily represent the views of FIFA, unless expressly stated otherwise.’’
and you spanish uefa link doesn't work.KSAconnect 17:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

It's your problem if your computer does not work, the link works and describes as competicion oficial the Fairs Cup. And you have problems understanding statements too: the meaning of the phrase you reported is ''If FIFA expressly stated different positions otherwise, these opinions will prevail over the list of clubs or the opinions expressed in the articles. OK, where did FIFA expressly state that Fairs Cup was not an official competition? We are waiting your official sources saying this man (the old one) was by accident in Budapest on September 11, 1968, he was by accident walking near Népstadion, and he was by accident invited inside to give the Cup to Leeds Utd. Let's wait.--79.54.153.220 (talk) 16:34, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
IP, te lo digo en castellano para que lo entiendas: "Europa en juego" es un blog y un blog NO ES ACEPTADO como referencia válida. Aunque diga la verdad suprema un blog NO ES CONSIDERADO fuente para Wikipedia. Respecto al hecho que Rous entregaba el trofeo ¿Y a quién le importa? Mussolini en 1934, De Gaule en 1938, el Rey de España Juan Carlos del Borbón y Borbón en 1982 y un NN en el 2006 (porque a Blatter no le dió la gana de hacerlo) le entregaron la Copa del Mundo al capitán de la Nazionale italiana ¿Y? Italia no deja de ser tetracampeón mundial por el simple hecho que el presidente FIFA jamás entregó (ni quiso hacerlo) la copa porque se trata de un mero procedimiento protocolar. La FIFA es la autoridad a nivel mundial, UEFA a nivel EUROPEO y la Copa de Ferias era competición europea que NO CUENTA para el único récord oficial: el de las competiciones UEFA. Esa jurisidicción se respeta y TIENE que ser respetada. Adiós.--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 19:57, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Dante, la Copa de la RFEF no es la Copa de la Liga sino la Copa Federación, así que por favor no trates de confundir al personal, la Copa de Ferias es la misma competición que la Europa League, otra cosa es que cambiara de nombre al hacerse la UEFA cargo de ella, que la UEFA no la considere "UEFA competition" al no estar organizada por ella es perfectamente lógico, pero no quiere decir que no sea la misma competición, por ejemplo el Barca de Baloncesto gano la Copa de Europa en 2002 y actualmente la ULEB no la reconoce ya que durante unos años no la organizao ella sino los clubs, por tanto el Barca de basket no es campeon de Europa? no es la misma competicion que la que jugara la Final Four a final de temporada?--Sporting1905 (talk) 21:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

¿Cómo que no le reconoce? ULEB lo hace, además que ello ocurrió en la temporada 2002-03 (me imagino que ese es el sitio oficial de la Euroliga ya que lo encontré en el sitio de la ULEB).
La Copa de Ferias es precursor cronológico, no "el mismo torneo" respecto a la Europa League para comenzar, a nivel del organizador y la postura de éste es muy explícita. RFEF señala que el Barcelona ha ganado 8 supercopas de España y señala que es récord de la competencia, no 12 sumando las 4 Copas Eva Duarte. Siguiendo tú punto de vista sería lógico decir que el Madrid fue 36 veces campeón de España y no las 31 que contempla la RFEF con la creación de la Liga puesto que hasta 1928 a la Copa del Rey (que el Madrid ganó en 5 ocasiones a 1929) se le conocía también como "Campeonato de España", ¿no?
Si mañana el ECA anuncia la creación de la Superliga Europea (algo que buscaba el G-14, su predecesor), el campeón va a ser llamado "campeón de Europa" pero sus resultados no serán mezclados con los de la Champions League puesto que, en principio, la UEFA se opone rotundamente a esa clase de torneo.--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 21:16, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

FIFA Club World Cup

Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

FC Barcelona has won the FIFA Club World Cup. Could the administrators modify the voice and add this victory in Barça honours? N.B. I hate Real Madrid and the madrid's fans. This club is the scum of football, such as Juventus in italy and i'm italian. For Dante the peruvian: UEFA is a criminal organization. Thank you. Physiology, 09:55, 20 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Physiology (talk • contribs)

Physiology is in reason, it has to be refreshed--Ssola (talk) 17:57, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Mediterranean League doesn't score?--Ssola (talk) 18:00, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

A message for the administrators: you have to update the table of records with the victory of FC Barcelona in the FIFA Club World Cup. Thank you. Physiology 11:40, 18 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Physiology (talk • contribs)

Most successful club table

Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Please, how can protect this part of the page? Thank you. It's under attack. It's very important. Stop edit wars. Physiology, 12:10 20 April 2010 (UTC). I confirm the request. It's very important. Physiology, 11.50 25 May 2010 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Physiology (talk • contribs)

Someone is removing the Copa Eva Duarte, it was by all means an official competition. Sandman888 (talk) Latest FLC 20:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Eva Duarte

Latest comment: 13 years ago32 comments15 people in discussion

Why Copa Eva Duarte is not considered in "Most successful clubs overall (1902 – present)" section?--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 09:21, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

If there is no opposition, I'll add the Copa Eva Duarte in the aforementioned section.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 07:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not official by RFEF & UEFA. Why you add it now not before some year? because you just want your team on top in a hurry way? Also Why you don't add Latin Cup and some unofficial tournment like what you added Fairs cup and Eva Duarte. For more See

Also you can see above #From RFEF statutes or I will copy it here>

* According to Tit. VI, chapter. II, section 1, art. 29 bis, paragraph 1, pag.19 of RFEF statutes, RFEF, the governing body of football in Spain ONLY recognise as "official football tournaments" at national level:

1. Los Campeonatos Nacionales de Liga de Primera, Segunda, Segunda B y Tercera División (Spanish Football Championships from First to Third Divition).
2. El Campeonato de España/Copa de S.M. el Rey (Spanish Cup).
3. La Supercopa (Spanish Super Cup).
4. La Copa RFEF (Spanish League Cup).

Additional comments
Also, the entity recognise official UEFA and FIFA competitions as equivalent to "statal championships".

Where is included in that document the Fairs Cup as "official" competition?

As Fairs Cups is not an UEFA club competicion, RFEF not recognise Fairs Cup as "official" cup, sorry...--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 00:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

In fact, we are speaking of a competition recognized by FIFA, not by UEFA. We explained it at least one hundred times. I don't think you don't understand: more probably, you are only a troll. --79.45.155.132 (talk) 01:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Is not a FIFA competition. The fifa's jurisdiction is world-wide like Europe is the UEFA's jurisdiction and Spain = RFEF.--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 00:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

To IPs see UEFA Cup: All-time finals - UEFA.com

Fairs Cup


‘‘The UEFA Cup replaced the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in the 1971/72 season. The list of finals from that competition are listed below, but please note that the Fairs Cup is not considered a UEFA competition, and hence clubs' records in the Fairs Cup are not considered part of their European record.’’

NOTE: The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup also took place from 1955 to 1971 but not as an official UEFA competition.

Good luck.KSAconnect 10:06, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
In fact, we always spoke about FIFA website, not UEFA website. YOU are a vulgar vandal, WE use official and precise sources. We all know that Fairs wasn't UEFA's: it is evidently recognized by FIFA on the principle of its interventation in its organization (the situation is very similar, speaking of UEFA instead of FIFA, of the Toyota Cup). And, LPF reflects FIFA statements. --79.54.157.81 (talk) 10:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
So you depend on that point only which make all you edits based on personal research, simply Fairs cup is a comp. played in Europe which European teams (some teams are represent their city) so how can it be International trophy by FIFA (FIFA doesn't say it was official also, UEFA says : Fairs Cup are not considered part of their European record.KSAconnect 12:27, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
We all know that Fairs Cup was not a UEFA competition, nobody is saying this. We are speaking about FIFA sources, because Fairs Cup was organized by a committee involving FIFA (in fact, the cup was given by FIFA President).--95.237.154.148 (talk) 23:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
But it also was not a FIFA competition like Latin Cup, and you source doesn't include any sentence speak about it . And if it official as your idea, thin many competitions like Fairs Cup will be official. Fianal thing that FIFA recognize the "official competition" in international level only not continent as what Mr.Dantetheperuvian said in this talk that RFEF, the governing body of football in Spain ONLY recognise as "official football tournaments" at national level:

1. Los Campeonatos Nacionales de Liga de Primera, Segunda, Segunda B y Tercera División (Spanish Football Championships from First to Third Divition).
2. El Campeonato de España/Copa de S.M. el Rey (Spanish Cup).
3. La Supercopa (Spanish Super Cup).
4. La Copa RFEF (Spanish League Cup).

Also, the entity recognise official UEFA and FIFA competitions as equivalent to "statal championships". And please stop trying to make your idea is correct only, while ignoring the rest of the official source.KSAconnect 07:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The parallelism with Latin Cup is completely uncorrect. Latin Cup was organized by four national associations (RFEF, FFF, FIGC and FPF), while FIFA was completely excluded. We never said that Fairs Cup was official because RFEF said so, we are saying that RFEF (as UEFA and FIGC in other sources) says that Fairs was official because it reflects FIFA position. No problem agreeing with your position when you will find an official FIFA source saying that Fairs was a friendly competition. --95.237.152.169 (talk) 10:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Your source of FIFA does not show what you type here as Fairs Cup was official that the opposite UEFA, which shows it explicitly said that the tournament is not considered an official tournament or even within the European competition.KSAconnect 10:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
You lie. UEFA says Fairs was an official competition (Look news on 13 de enero de 2009); then, certainly it says that Fairs was not its own competition, because it was organized by a committee involving FIFA (and, by the way, in later Sixties the entrance criteria were based on official national league standings). In fact, FIFA gives to Barça its Fairs honours.
Have you got an official source confirming what you say, that Fairs Cup was a friendly competition? --95.236.155.239 (talk) 14:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Be polite while you talking, look at Fairs Cup article to know more. Also see FIFA.com to know that your only sources not represent FIFA under the map.

‘‘The list of clubs or the opinions expressed in the articles do not necessarily represent the views of FIFA, unless expressly stated otherwise.’’
and you spanish uefa link doesn't work.KSAconnect 17:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

It's your problem if your computer does not work, the link works and describes as competicion oficial the Fairs Cup. And you have problems understanding statements too: the meaning of the phrase you reported is ''If FIFA expressly stated different positions otherwise, these opinions will prevail over the list of clubs or the opinions expressed in the articles. OK, where did FIFA expressly state that Fairs Cup was not an official competition? We are waiting your official sources saying this man (the old one) was by accident in Budapest on September 11, 1968, he was by accident walking near Népstadion, and he was by accident invited inside to give the Cup to Leeds Utd. Let's wait.--79.54.153.220 (talk) 16:34, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
IP, te lo digo en castellano para que lo entiendas: "Europa en juego" es un blog y un blog NO ES ACEPTADO como referencia válida. Aunque diga la verdad suprema un blog NO ES CONSIDERADO fuente para Wikipedia. Respecto al hecho que Rous entregaba el trofeo ¿Y a quién le importa? Mussolini en 1934, De Gaule en 1938, el Rey de España Juan Carlos del Borbón y Borbón en 1982 y un NN en el 2006 (porque a Blatter no le dió la gana de hacerlo) le entregaron la Copa del Mundo al capitán de la Nazionale italiana ¿Y? Italia no deja de ser tetracampeón mundial por el simple hecho que el presidente FIFA jamás entregó (ni quiso hacerlo) la copa porque se trata de un mero procedimiento protocolar. La FIFA es la autoridad a nivel mundial, UEFA a nivel EUROPEO y la Copa de Ferias era competición europea que NO CUENTA para el único récord oficial: el de las competiciones UEFA. Esa jurisidicción se respeta y TIENE que ser respetada. Adiós.--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 19:57, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Dante, la Copa de la RFEF no es la Copa de la Liga sino la Copa Federación, así que por favor no trates de confundir al personal, la Copa de Ferias es la misma competición que la Europa League, otra cosa es que cambiara de nombre al hacerse la UEFA cargo de ella, que la UEFA no la considere "UEFA competition" al no estar organizada por ella es perfectamente lógico, pero no quiere decir que no sea la misma competición, por ejemplo el Barca de Baloncesto gano la Copa de Europa en 2002 y actualmente la ULEB no la reconoce ya que durante unos años no la organizao ella sino los clubs, por tanto el Barca de basket no es campeon de Europa? no es la misma competicion que la que jugara la Final Four a final de temporada?--Sporting1905 (talk) 21:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

¿Cómo que no le reconoce? ULEB lo hace, además que ello ocurrió en la temporada 2002-03 (me imagino que ese es el sitio oficial de la Euroliga ya que lo encontré en el sitio de la ULEB).
La Copa de Ferias es precursor cronológico, no "el mismo torneo" respecto a la Europa League para comenzar, a nivel del organizador y la postura de éste es muy explícita. RFEF señala que el Barcelona ha ganado 8 supercopas de España y señala que es récord de la competencia, no 12 sumando las 4 Copas Eva Duarte. Siguiendo tú punto de vista sería lógico decir que el Madrid fue 36 veces campeón de España y no las 31 que contempla la RFEF con la creación de la Liga puesto que hasta 1928 a la Copa del Rey (que el Madrid ganó en 5 ocasiones a 1929) se le conocía también como "Campeonato de España", ¿no?
Si mañana el ECA anuncia la creación de la Superliga Europea (algo que buscaba el G-14, su predecesor), el campeón va a ser llamado "campeón de Europa" pero sus resultados no serán mezclados con los de la Champions League puesto que, en principio, la UEFA se opone rotundamente a esa clase de torneo.--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 21:16, 5 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.52.60.181 (talk)

See this RFEF - we are not limited to what RFEF consider official. This is a list of all the competitions at that time considered prestigious and open for all. Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 07:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

But this does not mean it the same or even under the supervision of the Spanish Federation, and if your conclusion on this are right, that would mean adding more tournaments that are similar to current one like Latin Cup. Also this list include only the official not prestigious like what you get it from that article. Q for you: Are These trophies you added in official? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.48.125.80 (talk) 12:46, 26 August 2010 (UTC) What do you mean by official? RFEF is not the only football organisation in the world, and the Copa Eva Duarte was a Spanish first-team competition just like the rest of them. Sandman888 (talk) 08:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

You don't have source that said what you say, you want to make your opinion to be the correct one to have your team in the lead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.49.1.140 (talk) 12:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes there's a source right here and here where it is listed with the rest of the supercup. Sandman888 (talk) 12:55, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Don't remove Fairs' Cups, it has already been discussed above. You seem to be going over your head to ensure that the total tally is to your liking. Sandman888 (talk) 13:08, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Source is considered only a testimonial to the representative of Argentina. What about this [3], eportivo-la-coruna.com is a fan site like what you want.--188.49.1.140 (talk) 13:12, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
RSSSF is recognized by consensus on WP:FOOTY. You can of course ask there whether the Copa Eva Duarte is a Spanish competition or not, but I doubt they will agree. Sandman888 (talk) 13:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Only officia title can added that organized by official bodies : Spanish (RFEF), European (UEFA) and Worldwidw (FIFA).

Spanish (RFEF) : La Liga, Copa del Rey, Supercopa de España and Copa de la Liga.
European (UEFA) : Champions League, Cup Winners' Cup, (UEFA) Europa League, Super Cup, Intertoto Cup and Intercontinental Cup (was a football competition endorsed by UEFA and CONMEBOL)
Worldwidw (FIFA): FIFA Club World Cup —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.49.1.140 (talk) 13:19, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Rubbish, any recognized competition can be added, not only those by RFEF or UEFA. Likewise the intertoto cup isn't so it's not there. Sandman888 (talk) 13:22, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

RSSSF is only organization dedicated to collecting statistics, using contributors from around the world, so of info is not perfect sourced or uncompleted. So we have official organization we don't need secondary source that include some ideas.--188.49.1.140 (talk) 13:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

As I said, consensus as established it as legitimate. If you want to turn over that decision go to WP:FOOTY. Several editors have agreed that Eva Duarte and Fairs should be in the table so that is consensus. Sandman888 (talk) 13:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Agreed on false that bad think for who want to make his opinion the true against others.--188.49.1.140 (talk) 13:33, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I think both should be in, but the Duarte is another issue IMO. But the Fairs Cup is 100% legit, the fact it's being argued is ridiculous, the FIGC, the Italian Footballing Body agree it should be added to domestic teams honours (go to football records of italy and go to the link next to Roma in the table) and also go to the OFFICIAL La Liga website, LFP, both in Valencia and Barcelona's records the Fairs Cup is added. Who cares that UEFA don't recognise it as part of THEIR record...but it's still a competition to is added to European records and domestic records, just not UEFA records, because well shock, horror...UEFA never hosted it, so they have a reason to not add it to their records. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.155.106.196 (talk) 19:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Fewest defeats in season

Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Also yo have write Fewest defeats in total, Real Sociedad, 38 matches (78/79 -6, 79/80, 32).--88.19.64.233 (talk) 16:59, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Copa Eva Duarte, Copa de la Liga and Inter-Cities Fairs Cup

Latest comment: 12 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion

For clarification, and to homogenize the criteria surrounding the number of domestic, international and overall titles of Spanish clubs I would like to point out the following:

1) The Copa Eva Duarte WAS a official competition, as it was organized by the Royal Spanish Football Federation, a member of UEFA (see the Cup's page for references), preceding the current Spanish Super Cup (see the Cup's page for references)

2) The Copa de la Liga WAS also a official competition, as it was also organized, even if briefly, by the Royal Spanish Football Federation, again, a member of UEFA, as an alternative to the more established Copa del Rey (see the Cup's page for references)

3) The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup WAS NOT a official competition, even if it preceded the UEFA Cup and Europa League tournaments, as it was not organized by UEFA, but by private individuals and organizations to promote trade fairs in Europe (see the Cup's page for references)

It is clear that the above-mentioned are the correct, objective criteria for official tournaments, and they are the ones currently in use in the overall trophies table. It was updated by someone else (unknown to me), but given that this is usually a misunderstood issue I thought it important to clarify and substantiate the used criteria.

MarkamBey (talk) 10:40, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead and update it with above refs and it should be fine. page is semiprotected. Sandman888 (talk) 19:55, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi Sandman,

I see that you have updated the overall trophies table including the Inter-Cities Fair Cup but not the Eva Duarte Cup, I guess it is a misunderstanding? I will now revert the table to the previous version which abided to the objective criteria explained above (UEFA or RFEF recognition), i.e. which included Eva Duarte Cups but not Inter-Cities Fair Cups.

MarkamBey (talk) 11:54, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I have updated the overall titles table per the above criteria, including footnotes in each competition explaning which titles within which dates are included, and why it is so, i.e. because only official titles recognized by RFEF, UEFA or FIFA are included. Please revise and correct if necessary, but I think that all figures are correct. In any clase, please do not change criteria without discussin her first, as the currently used ones are the objective, verifiable ones.

MarkamBey (talk) 13:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The number of Supercopas for F.C. Barcelona was increased to 14 from my previous edit of 13. Please realize that the correct number, using current criteria of "official" competitions as organized/recognized , is 13 = 10 Supercopas proper + 3 Copa Eva Duarte, as the fourth was won by F.C. Barcelona when it was still not an official tournament organized by the RFEF. These criteria are currently under discussion here and on club articles' discussion pages, but please do not further edit until criteria are changed, to avoid mistakes (double counting, etc.).

MarkamBey (talk) 02:01, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Even if it listed on other articles already referenced, I would like to provide here a primary source for the "officiality" of the Copa Eva Duarte from 1947 onwards: in http://hemeroteca.lavanguardia.com/preview/1949/10/12/pagina-14/32823386/pdf.html a 1949 newspaper article can be read, which announces the F.C. Barcelona vs Valencia "Copa Eva Duarte" match which would take place later on that same date (1st paragraph), then describes how the RFEF has organized the cup, to be played by the league and cup winners every year, and the terms under which a team can keep the cup (2nd paragraph), and then mentions that Real Madrid won the first edition of the cup as "Copa Eva Duarte" and organized by the RFEF in 1947, and that Barcelona won the second edition in 1948 (3rd paragraph).

MarkamBey (talk) 16:25, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Overall Titles Table: Official vs Unofficial Competitions

Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Dear all,

As you might have observed if you have read the full discussion page of this article and the discussion pages of some clubs such as F.C. Barcelona, the classification of competitions into official and unofficial is far from trivial and raises some tricky questions. To encourage debate and homogenize criteria I list those questions below, together with the answer which I deem more fit and my justification for it, please contribute with your opinions and/or other questions that you deem important.

1) Should we list only official titles, or all of them?

My take is that we should only list official titles, not all of them, to avoid the "noise" of friendly matches, friendly trophies, etc.

2) What is an official title?

This is very tricky, but if we are trying to abide by objective criteria when classifying competitions into official and unofficial, in my view the only clear-cut way to classify competitions is whether they are officialy recognized by RFEF if they are domestic, by UEFA if they are European, and by FIFA if they are International. This leaves some gray areas, such as the Latin Cup, but solves most of the problem. As an example, the Latin Cup would be unofficial under this definition (it is not a domestic competition, even if it was organized, partly, by the RFEF), and the same goes for Inter-Cities Fairs Cup (it is a european competition, but it was not organized nor is recognized by UEFA). On the contrary, the Copa Eva Duarte from 1947 to 1953 and the Copa de la Liga are official competitions under this definition, since they were domestic competitions organized by the RFEF (note that the first editions of the Copa Eva Duarte under other names, prior to 1947, are not official under this definition, since they were not organized nor are recognized by the RFEF).

Again, that is my take, but I stand to be corrected if you find better criteria/arguments. In any case, please contribute.

MarkamBey (talk) 02:33, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

PS Unknown editors of this article https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_confederation_and_inter-confederation_club_competition_winners also seem to adopt the above view (Inter-Cities Fairs Cup is considered as unofficial, while Latin Cup is not even mentioned).

MarkamBey (talk) 02:53, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Alphabetic order in case of a tie in overall titles table

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have included a note about this and reorganized the overall titles table accordingly. MarkamBey (talk) 16:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Inter-Cities Fair Cup non-inclusion criteria clarification and references

Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

After reviewing all the feedback from current and previous discussions, I still believe that according to objective, verifiable sources the Inter-Cities Fairs Cups should not be included in the overall titles table. However, as many have pointed out, it is a very close call, and for the sake of objectivity and completeness, I only consider it fair to include a brief reference of the non-inclusion criteria in the article itself, including sources, so that the reader has all the information if she or he reads the article with attention. This is the reference that I have included both after the introduction mentioning that only "official" titles are included, and in the UEFA Europa League header itself:

"In particular, note that the UEFA Cup replaced the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, however, as the competition was not organised by UEFA, it is not counted as an official trophy for official record purposes ("UEFA Cup: All-time finals". UEFA.com. Retrieved 13 July 2009.), even if it is generally considered the official predecessor of the UEFA Cup (see, for example, http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/history/index.html) and a major title (see, for example, F.C. Barcelona's profile at FIFA.com: http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/clubs/club=44217/) - F.C. Barcelona won the competition a record three times (1958, 1960, 1966), Valencia C.F. won it twice (1962,1963), and Real Zaragoza won it in one occasion (1964)."

I think that the above is a fair, substantiated and objective statement that only completes the information already provided in the article, and that might help an uninformed reader understand the issues surrounding the Fairs Cup status. MarkamBey (talk) 17:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

PS Since again, it is a close call, if the majority would decide so, I would be fine with following FIFA criteria and including the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup on the table as it is done in the English and Italian versions of the article. However, if so, to be coherent please modify the introduction and references accordingly, or drop me a message at my talk page so that I do so (e.g. the introduction should be mofified to say organized OR recognized as major trophies by RFEF, UEFA and FIFA, etc.) Also, please modify club pages accordingly.

MarkamBey (talk) 17:42, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Latin Cup non-inclusion criteria clarification and references

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have included one more reference in the introduction to the overall titles table to clarify why competitions such as the Latin Cup are not included: they were organized by RFEF together with other national-level federations, however it was a European competition, and as such per the current criteria it would be only considered as "official" and included in the overall titles table if it had been organized by UEFA. Again, I think that current criteria are objective and easily verifiable, in compliance with Wikipedia regulations, but I am open to discussion and stand to be corrected if necessary, just please be coherent and justify your points with verifiable, valid references. MarkamBey (talk) 18:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Intercontinental Cup (European/South American Cup, Toyota Cup)

Latest comment: 12 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

I don't want to open a can of worms, so I would like to propose this here before making any changes, but someone pointed to me that the Intercontinental Cup was a worldwide competition not organized by FIFA (it was organized by UEFA and CONMEBOL), and that it would therefore not qualify for inclussion in the table per the current criteria.

In particular, if we do include the Intercontinental Cup, it does look difficult to reject the inclusion of the Latin Cup, since it was a European competition organized by national federations, a case analogous to the Latin Cup.

Also, it is slight more tangent, but this also complicates the case for not including the Fairs Cup, since although it is a European competition it seems to be recognized by FIFA (although it was not organized by any national federation, UEFA or FIFA, which makes the decision trickier).

So,... should we eliminate the Intercontinental Cup and just count FIFA Club World Cup as worldwide competitions, or on the contrary include the Latin Cup as well in the table? If the latter, should we also include Fairs Cup?

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated, as I hadn't realized this issue with the Intercontinental Cup which makes the question of which competitions to include much more harder than I thought. MarkamBey (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

My personal point of view is that the most consistent edit would be to keep the Intercontinental Cup there, and include the Latin Cup in the table and mention in the introduction that "only official competitions organized or co-organized by RFEF, UEFA or FIFA" are included in the table. Fairs Cup would stay out, since it was not organized by any of the three associations. MarkamBey (talk) 01:22, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
The Intercontinental Cup has been seen by more than 40 years a kind of Club World Cup. While not organized by FIFA, it is also true that his authority was limited to national teams (teams Associations) (cf. p.7) and the Intercontinental Cup is recognises by FIFA as the only precursor competition of the current World Club Cup (cf. p.3) although, chronologically, the first tournament of that kind was the Lipton Trophy.
FIFA does not merge Intercontinental Cup statistics with the Cup World Club statistics nor nor the roll of winners of these tournaments (cf. pp. 4; 20-22) as some media (which is not the same as saying if a team was or was not any time "world champion"), so IMHO, be separated as is the club's honors section.--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 04:38, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
I'd include both Intercontinental and World Cup separated. They are indeed different competitions. I'd include also Latin Cup (for the same reason as we include Intercontinental). About the Fairs Cup: since it is generally considered the official predecessor of the UEFA Cup and FIFA considers it a major title, I'd include it in the table, but perhaps in a column after the "Total", with the remark "not official but predecessor of the UEFA Cup, recognized by FIFA as a major title".--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 10:36, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
As FIFA not employ a club ranking system and not ranks club tournaments, it can not decide what tournament is "official" or not and what cup is "major" or "minor". So, include in that overall list the Fairs Cup and not includes the Latin Cup (official competition considered predecessor of the European Champions Cup) is clearly POV...--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 02:22, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
I proposed to include also Latin Cup. I didn't exclude it! About major tournament: FIFA lists each club major honours. Here you won't find any Gamper, nor "Copa Catalunya", nor "Segunda división" titles. Fairs Cup was considered by this time one of the most important tournaments in Europe (as FIFA considers) and omitting it just because it was long ago and at this time it was not official, is quite unfair. Therefore, I suggest a new column, which could include all Trophies which FIFA lists as a "Major honour". It's just an idea to both recognize this title, and not include it in the "total" (official trophies) column.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 14:55, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
FIFA is linked to the association football for nations, so it not has no power to define what club competition is "official" or "major" respect other because-except for the FIFA Club World Cup-all tournaments are organised or by an Association member (as Eva Duarte Cup organised by RFEF, which the FIFA would be "minor" althrough that competition during the 1940s defined the best team in Spain over the league championship) or any Confederation (ignoring all international tournament that does not organise) and these agencies are autonomous respect FIFA. FIFA.com is contradictory because here considered the Latin Cup (what defined the best club in Europe prior the European Champions Cup) as "major" and not here.--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 22:12, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

about seaboy123 deleting sourced material from the page

Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

This guy repedely delete sourced material from this page, removing well established records because they belong to FC Barcelona. I think he/she is a Real madrid fan obsessed with all reords that belong to FC Barcelona. The records are sourced and recognized by the organizing body of the league. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.57.255.81 (talk) 22:51, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Your claims are likely exaggerated and there are no citiations. I would be happy to see the exact sources claiming them. Please do not attack other editors. Seaboy123 (talk) 23:43, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Are you stupid? Can't you read, it is provided by LFP, they organize the competition. That is the only reliable source, all other sources are secondary and thus more likely to be wrong. LFP is the only primary source there are, it is way better than anything else that you can find since it uses the competitions own historical database.

And about citations, do you realize how many citations would have to be added, I can add exact sources to every record on this page but then you would end up with an enormous amount of citations, easily several hundreds of them, for FC Barcelonas 39 win streak alone there would be 39 citations, do you realize how stupid that is?.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.57.255.81 (talk) 00:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

If you further attack any editor with your words, I will request and indefinite block of your IP Address.Seaboy123 (talk) 05:27, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Clarification for Copa Eva Duarte and Intercities Fairs cup

Latest comment: 12 years ago7 comments2 people in discussion

While it can be agreeable to include the Copa Eva Duarte, Inter Cities fairs cup was a tournmanent where many teams from the Liga including Athletic Bilbao , Real Madrid and almost all of the Spanish football clubs did not participate. You cannot compare teams when some teams have played in a tournament and some have not. So I do not think it is right to include Inter cities fairs cup. Otherwise other teams will claim any other tournaments they have played where others have not! This will just be a mess. Plus, Inter cities is not recognized by FIFA.Seaboy123 (talk) 16:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

First of all you have already been banned once on Wikipedia but have know reappeared with a new nickname.(according to your own page, so I would stop threatening other members on Wikipedia if I was you!)

Your logic is deluded. It cannot be FC Barcelona's problem nor fault that RM was not able to compete. The fact still remains that the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup is acknowledged by UEFA as being the predecessor of the UEFA CUP. Moreover FIFA officially recognizee the trophy.

Moreover both the SPANISH and Catalan Wikipedia page both acknowledge that FC Barcelona is the most successful club in terms of domestic, international and overall trophies in Spain.

FC Barcelona leads 61-59 domestic wise and 17-15 international wise and 78-74 in terms of overall trophies.

And only trophies recognized by either RFEF, UEFA or FIFA are included in that list.--Crashwheelx (talk) 19:57, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

First thing, focus your time here about this article not on me! FIFA does not recognize it. Nor does UEFA. It was not organised by UEFA. Consequently, UEFA do not consider clubs' records in the Fairs Cup to be part of their European records. Its in Intercities fairs cup own wiki page as well. Cite your references before you claim anything. And Catalan wikipedia? You cant cite wikipedia for a wikipedia article. Please know wiki laws before you even make arguments.Seaboy123 (talk) 20:44, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, I am repeating again : "You cannot compare teams when some teams have played in a tournament and some have not. So I do not think it is right to include Inter cities fairs cup. Otherwise other teams will claim any other tournaments they have played where others have not! This will just be a mess.". Seaboy123 (talk) 20:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

FIFA does recognize the Fairs Cup. You are lying right now. http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/clubs/club=44217/index.html

The Fairs Cup is included officially by FIFA as a major trophy as seen by my link so you are wrong.

Moreover the Fairs Cup is ACKNOWLEDGED by UEFA to be the predecessor of the UEFA CUP.

What regard the Copa Eva Duarte then it was founded and organized by RFEF and was the predecessor of the current Spanish Super Cup.

For proof see this discussion page and the discussion page on the FC Barcelona page. Moreover it is included in both the Spanish and Catalan Wikipedia pages (with Spanish references and sources to back it up).

I can post them to you if you like. And I am half Spanish so I am fluent in Spanish. So I would advice you to stop deleting correct information.--Crashwheelx (talk) 14:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

If you say so and give me that link, then you claim yourself as a hypocrite as Copa Eva Duarte is not even mentioned there. Find a source which says "FIFA recgonized Intercities and Copa Eva, then we can consider your argument. You being fluent in Spanish does not justify you of being more knowledgable. And you still are not being able to disprove my point that: "You cannot compare teams when some teams have played in a tournament and some have not. So I do not think it is right to include Inter cities fairs cup. Otherwise other teams will claim any other tournaments they have played where others have not! This will just be a mess." And no, Fairs cup is not recognized by UEFA. See this: http://en.archive.uefa.com/uefa/news/kind=1/newsid=2571.html And please stop accusing me or any other editor of being wrong or anything. This will simply not help your argument. Seaboy123 (talk) 23:36, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Plus your own fifa link totals barcelonas titles to 73 and not 78, add it yourself ! http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/clubs/club=44217/index.html Seaboy123 (talk) 00:00, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Move of article

Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

This article was moved to a new name with no discussion. I have undone the move in order to keep the consistency with other like articles.--Coquidragon (talk) 20:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

That is twice you make the change User:Amarru. Please, stop. This article is one in a series. (England, Germany, France, Italy, etc...)--Coquidragon (talk) 21:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)


Most successful clubs overall

Latest comment: 12 years ago8 comments2 people in discussion

Should the "Most successful clubs overall" include the Fairs Cup? I see the edit war here, the Football records in Italy page doesn't include it, but the Football records in England page does. NOTE: It is clear that the Eva Duarte Cup should be included as it was an official competition sponsored by the RFEF.--Coquidragon (talk) 21:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The Inter cities Fairs is not recognized by UEFA in their official count of trophies for european clubs. It is crystal clear in their website. It should def. not be included here. It was merely an unofficial tournament which had pariticipants like London XI which was not even an official club. I suggest removal of the inter cities fairs. It is simply creating edit warring and will be done by many users as long as its kept. This is not an official title recognised by UEFA, so if we keep this, users will argue to keep friendly cups, and any other cups that can come into mind. Simply another reason to continue edit warring here. HasperHunter (talk) 23:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and changed the title to short names, using a key, in order to limit the width of the table. I've also separated Eva Duarte and Intercontinental from the SuperCup and the FIFA World Cup respectively in order to provide a more accurate view of the standings. The Fairs Cup has been taken out, not so much from what has been discussed here (although it had something to do) but so that the table is consistent with other European record tables in English Wikipedia.--Coquidragon (talk) 18:36, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

After reading the several previous comments on this discussion page, I've also included the Copa Latina for being officially organized by RFEF and, changing what previously stated, included the Fairs Cup for being a mayor European competition recognized by FIFA, even though it is not counted by UEFA for European records.--Coquidragon (talk) 21:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Inter cities fairs cup is not recognized by UEFA. This table has to include football records in spain and spanish teams' in europe, so the ones recognized by UEFA and not FIFA. FIFA recognized friendly tournaments too. Should we now include friendly cups too? And football records in italy also does not include it. I think you should remove it.HasperHunter (talk) 01:19, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
The approach to the table is to include tournaments organized or recognized by RFEF, UEFA, or FIFA. You are partially correct in your statement.
The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup is not a friendly tournament, although it is indeed an unofficial competition, but being recognized by UEFA as the official predecessor to the UEFA Cup, as such, it is recognized by FIFA as a mayor European title. That is the reason it was included in the table. FIFA might recognized many friendly tournaments too, but it doesn't recognized them as "mayor" as it does Fairs Cup. Also, even though Italian records doesn't include it, taking into account that it only applies to one Italian team (Roma), the English record does include it and it applies to three or four teams, same as Spain. If you look at the history of the article, I had indeed removed it, yet due to what was just explained, I added it back.--Coquidragon (talk) 03:20, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
I just noticed your user page clearly states you support FC Barcelona. Thus no further talk is needed here. You will try your very best to lower madrid's image in any way possible. Dont have time to waste in you.HasperHunter (talk) 01:35, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm Puerto Rican, and here Football is the 5th sport most played, way after Basketball, Baseball, Volleyball and Boxing. I studied in Spain, and there learned to love football. My teams in order of preference are Real Zaragoza, Real Valladolid and F. C. Barcelona. I don't live football with the same passion as people in Spain, nor am I against Real Madrid. If my liking FCB in third place incapacitates me to POV edit wikipedia, I'll stop. Yet, I see myself many times arguing against Culés, which makes me think I am a NPOV editor.--Coquidragon (talk) 02:49, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Adding reference notes to particular records?

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I'm thinking about adding reference notes to the individual records on this page, the problem as I see it is that the reference section would be awfully long, for some records there would be multiple notes and for the entire page they would most likely add up to well over a hundred. I'll start with adding notes to the win streak records. Unfortunately since these records are mostly recently established, there are no written referernces to them in any books about Spanish football. I'll go on and use the LFP site as a start. There are many books about the history of fooball in Spain, but they usually contain records that are to old or even wrong (I've come across many errors in the books I've read, for example Lagara scoring his 3 consecutive hattricks in the season 1935-1936 when in reality it was 1934-1935, that is just one error but I've have come across tons of them). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.60.11.82 (talk) 15:18, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

HasperHunter vandalising the page

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

HasperHunter has been repetedly removing sourced material from this page. I say he should be banned for 24H by admins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.57.248.61 (talk) 19:06, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Sources about Lángara beeing the fastest to 100 goals

Latest comment: 12 years ago12 comments2 people in discussion
Sources about Ronaldo as fastest: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17502825
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/soccer/wires/03/24/2080.ap.soc.madrid.ronaldo.0316/index.html
http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/soccer/story/Ronaldo-fastest-to-100-league-goals-in-Spain-43974933
http://www.ekantipur.com/2012/03/25/sports/ronaldo-fastest-player-to-100-la-liga-goals/351196/
Are you saying I should trust yours and completely discard these sources?HasperHunter (talk) 04:03, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Also, just so you know, 2 or 3 of the sources you provided are actually claiming ronaldo is the fastest themselves. Whats your claim here? I am confusedHasperHunter (talk) 04:12, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Exactly which of the sourced that I provided states that Ronaldo is the fastest? The only thing they say is that Ronaldo is the fastest in Real Madrid, every single one o the sources I have provided above states that Langara scored his 100 goals in 82 games. It can also be verified by simply adding upp his match starts and goals scored which are all provided on LFP.es. Your sources are simply the result of a media misstake.

I'll start by saying that you have violated Wikipedia's three revert rule and if you continue doing so, you'll be blocked from wikipedia. Second, I have read all sources provided by the anonymous IP, and you are lying when you say that "Also, just so you know, 2 or 3 of the sources you provided are actually claiming ronaldo is the fastest themselves." I recommend you read the articles again. Finally, even if I ignored the sources provided by the other editor and consider only yours, with acknowledgement of WP:Verifiability, not truth (which would imply that we ought to attribute the record to CR7 as provided by your sources), WP:CALC permits us to perform the count ourselves based on the sourced goal record for Isidro Lángara

Club performance League
Season Club League Apps Goals
Spain League
1933/34 Real Oviedo La Liga 18 26
1934/35 22 27
1935/36 21 28
1946/47 20 18
1947/48 9 5
Total 90 104

If you do the Math, 104 goals in 90 games imply that he surpassed the 100 goals in 92 games for CR7. Please, stop changing the article.--Coquidragon (talk) 05:38, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

You cannot cite wiki itself for a wikipedia article. You will be violating several rules here. The sources above are from catalunya and not reliable. I am not lying. You are lying about all these things. 3 of the sources are saying ronaldo is the fastest... which world are you in?HasperHunter (talk) 15:16, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Also, look at the table, it goes until 1936 and then jumps into 1945, so did langara not play for a decade and then come back and started scoring or what? Please give me la liga's official count for this person which says he did so in 10 years gap. This data is flawed itself.HasperHunter (talk) 15:23, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Ok even if I am to trust this unsourced tally of langara, then also ronaldo would be fastest by number of seasons and this was what the media might be pointing put. Only a user from catalunya would be desperate to not put ronaldo as fastest. Please do not remove anything now.HasperHunter (talk) 15:49, 2613 April 2012 (UTC)

Let's go in order: 1. I'm not citing Wikipedia, I just borrowed the goals table from the other article. That's Isidro Lángara's La Liga official goal count, even if you don't like it. 2. By saying that Catalunya sources are not reliable, you are showing your own bias, which doesn't help your argument. 3. You are still lying. None of the original sources provided by the other user support your position. You either don't know Spanish, or are reading with a blind's eye. 4. You say that "This data is flawed itself." This is your opinion, and it is not valid nor true. 5. The jump in years means nothing. It took Lángara 82 games, regardless of the years in between, to reach 100 goals. He was faster that CR7. 6. It took CR7 less seasons than Lágara? Agreed, but that's not what we are talking about, nor any sources back this claim, not even yours. The record and the sources talk about amount of games. Lángara took 82. He has the record. 7. Another opinion "this was what the media might be pointing". For being somebody asking for sources from other users, you surely are trying to impose your opinions. 8. You say "Only a user from catalunya would be desperate to not put ronaldo as fastest." This show more of your bias. Have you seeing the sources provided, or more specifically, the fourth source provided? It comes directly from the Real Madrid official page. Even RM official page says it took Lángara 82 games, less games than CR7. Who are you trying to deceive? 9. BTW, you are nobody to claim that your sources are more reliable than another user sources. But if you can have an opinion, so can I, and since this is a Spanish league record, I'll believe Spanish sources more than foreign source. You cite BBC, Sportillustrated and Foxsport, none Spanish. The other user cited Marca.com, RealMadrid.com, CiudadDeportiva.com, NoticiasdeMadrid.com and more. All Spanish, none from Catalunya. Now, I ask you. STOP, making the changes.--Coquidragon (talk) 21:40, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I have no time to read your idiotic explanation. I have cited the source and it is clear that ronaldo took the least seasons. prove it wronf if you can. number of seasons is as important as number of appearances. Number of games in a season changes all the time.HasperHunter (talk) 23:23, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

First, I forgive your personal attack by calling my response idiotic. I will not lower myself. Second, this new supposed "record" is personal research since there are no source that state or even mention the seasons. It makes no sense. When Lángara played, the first four seasons did not amount to 100 games (18 games, 22 games, 22 games, 26 games). He did it in 5 seasons because mathematically, it was impossible for him to do it in less. CR7 did it in three. It is no accomplishment, since like Lándara, he did it in the minimum amounts of seasons possible. As you said, number of games in a season change all the time. There is no such record in what CR7 did--Coquidragon (talk) 00:44, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

If that does not make sense, there are so many records here for clubs and players for each type of season, 18 games, 38 games and 40 games. So should we delete all of them now? You can mention for 18 games may be Langara had fewer seasons records, but for current format CR definitely has this record.HasperHunter (talk) 01:50, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

You never insert your comment in between another user's comment. Please, don't do it again. I have removed your statement from the original position and have moved it below--Coquidragon (talk) 02:16, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I forgive your for your personal attacks. Here is another source: http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/es/Actualidad_Primer_Equipo/1330091624401/noticia/Noticia/Cristiano_Ronaldo_es_el_jugador_que_antes_llega_a_los_100_goles_en_Liga_en_la_historia_del_Real_.htm .. that you yourself gave in your hypocritic list. It also says who had taken how many seasons.HasperHunter (talk) 00:52, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Never have i attacked you personally, nor is the list of sources mine. I am not the anonymous user and I always sign my comments.--Coquidragon (talk) 02:16, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

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