Talk:Fallout shelter

Untitled

I will add some graphs of gamma dose rate vs. time for the chernobyl fallout soon, the calcs. will be for a person in the open, and for a person with either 10 cm, 20 cm or 30 cm of concrete to protect them.

When/if I get the time, I might add a set of calcs. for A-bomb fallout. These will be more complex as more isotopes will be present. --Cadmium —The preceding comment was added on 16:12, 19 February 2006.

I have added the diagrams, someone might want to improve the formatting of the diagrams to make them look nicer. I will try and repeat this set of calculation for A-bomb fallout (in the words of Captn. Oates 'I may be some time')Cadmium 10:23, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Have added some up-to-date info re Swiss fall out shelters I have seen whilst living there. 194.153.179.156 11:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

-- Hey, what's the deal with the sup numbers in this article not existing? Did somebody cut-and-paste from another article? Wikijimmy 02:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)wikijimmy

Links to commercial site where FEMA documents may be downloaded upon payment (moved from references section of main article)

• FEMA Civil Defense Shelters - A state of the Art Assessment - 1986 This 25 megabyte PDF file is the complete 300 page plus report on civil defense fallout shelter and shelter systems as compiled under contract for FEMA. Includes information on the design, construction, testing and cost of blast and fallout shelters, and includes a bibliography of over 1000 documents. Hosted by SurvivalRing.org.

• Fallout Shelter Surveys: Guide for Architects and Engineers 58 page PDF document - Provides a guide for architects and engineers with procedures and standards for evaluating potential fallout shelter areas in existing buildings. Hosted by SurvivalRing.org.

• FEMA Fallout Shelter Management Handbook 22 page PDF document - "The safety and well-being of the people in this shelter depend on capable leadership. If a civil defense shelter manager is not present, anyone seeing this handbook who has leadership experience can and should TAKE CHARGE IMMEDIATELY." Hosted by SurvivalRing.org.

• FEMA Underground Fallout Shelter Plan H-12-1 9 page PDF document. Actual FEMA plan for a backyard underground fallout shelter. Hosted by SurvivalRing.org. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stephend01 (talk • contribs) 18:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Might add some mention of the Ark Two Shelter as an example of a fallout shelter. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 16:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. Mysterious Whisper (SHOUT) 14:41, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Explanation

Can someone explain 20cm offers better protection than 30cm in the first 10 days or so? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.132.122.135 (talk) 10:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

In the first 10–20 days after the fallout, the radiation from the fallout in environment is high and the radiation levels outside the shelter unacceptable. The sturdier the walls, the better the attenuation of gamma radiation from the outside. Of course, if the fallout contaminates the shelter, the radiation comes from the inside and the walls do not offer protection. This is why the air must be filtered. In addition, thicker walls also withstand more pressure, giving the shelter better survivability from a distant blast. --MPorciusCato 13:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

How come the article says that unfiltered air is safe, while the falllout article states fallout is "composed of particles from less than 100 nm to several millimeters in diameter", having <um particles blowing into the shelter and breathing them in doesn't sound too healthy, even when they try to justify it by comparing it to the danger of larger particles.2001:8003:213F:D000:1C87:35F3:6D20:153A (talk) 19:00, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Question

In the article on radiation poisoning, it is stated that gamma rays can scatter off of dense materials and that the entrances to fallout shelters should therefore incorporate multiple 90-degree turns. Here, it is implied that this is not the case, as a single right-angle entrance is deemed sufficient to prevent gamma ray scattering into the shelter. Clarification? 128.12.137.240

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United States Legality of Fallout Shelters

US Citizens have the right to install fallout shelters under the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. US Citizens are granted the right to bear arms in order to provide protection during life-threatening events. The fall-out shelter legally falls under this provision in the defensive sense. All Americans are guaranteed the right to protect themselves from chemical, nuclear, biological and other forms of attacks foreign and domestic.

Some form of this provision should be included in the article as it is pertinent to US Citizens. I would be more than willing to insert it, however I would like to know where you would prefer it to be inserted and I would like prior discussion regarding this before insertion into article mainframe. --216.229.227.141 (talk) 15:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

While I completely support the right of US citizens to build fallout shelters (and I myself have one!), I don't understand how that right would relate to the Second Amendment. Would you mind explaining that? Whind Soull (talk) 06:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I have also no objection to the building of fallout shelters, but I would like to have a reliable source supporting your opinion. In addition, I'd like to know what you actually imply. For example, do you mean that the right to build shelters trumps zoning restrictions? --MPorciusCato (talk) 07:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Fallout shelters and meltdowns

Has anyone considered building or using fallout shelters to protect against radiation from nuclear meltdowns? 198.151.130.69 (talk) 17:56, 21 March 2011 (UTC) yes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.90.128.58 (talk) 05:56, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Adding list of countries? Merging different subjects?

I noticed that in the history-section of this page there is some extensive writing on how the fallout-shelters are built and operated in Switzerland.

We have had (and some still apply) very similar rules here in Sweden (we have around 65000 big shelters, and 7 million smaller. With a population of 9 000 000.).

Should we create a new section? Like a list of countries - else it will be a very strange history section with some perhaps irrelevant information for the reader.

Also. Fallout-shelters, bomb-shelter and air-raid-shelters are all very similar, at least in some countries. They are quite seldom purpose built just for nuclear fallout - but to withstand bomb blasts and other types of attacks too.

I think that we should find a common subject for these. Currently it can be very difficult to search and gather information on each subject - most of them aren't even linked. For instance, the subject bomb shelter is lacking to say the least, and doesn't even contain a "read more" section, which should link to fallout shelter.

Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swekitsune (talk • contribs) 16:29, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think a list of countries would be appropriate for this article. However, a new article on the Civil defense of Sweden (along the lines of United States civil defense) might be useful, provided enough references could be found. Mysterious Whisper (SHOUT) 16:59, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I couldn't find enough references for a stand-alone article on, so I made this. Mysterious Whisper (SHOUT) 22:31, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Can we get clarification on the sentence stating that fallout shelters in Sweden can "withstand a blast from a 50 megaton explosion at a distance of 700 metres"? The only bomb ever tested that large was the Tsar Bomba, but it was so large it wasn't considered for actual use in warfare. That, and if it exploded 700 meters from you, it wouldn't exactly matter what you were in. I think we're missing some zeros, and a citation. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.251.127.250 (talk) 04:46, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. Mysterious Whisper (SHOUT) 13:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Untitled II

I am considering removing:

• The first, second, third, and fifth graphs (from the top) (File:Isotopeshareofgammadosewith30cmconcreteatchernobyl.png; File:AirDoseChernobylVector.svg; File:Isotopeshareofgammadosewith10cmconcreteatchernobyl.png; & File:Isotopeshareofgammadosewith20cmconcreteatchernobyl.png)
• Most or all of section: "Protection offered by the solid walls and roof of a structure"
• Most or all of section: "Weapons versus nuclear accident fallout"

... on the grounds that: it's unsourced; it's WP:SYNTH (at best) and/or WP:OR; it's not particularly helpful to the casual reader of an article on fallout shelters; it's probably what's making the article "too technical for most readers to understand"; and it'd be more in place at Nuclear fallout than here. Thoughts? Mysterious Whisper (SHOUT) 17:35, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Like this. Mysterious Whisper (SHOUT) 19:04, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Country with highest ratio

Just to explain my edit:

The article history shows that the text in question was originally written as one paragraph, all referring to Switzerland. To avoid repeating the name of the country, the phrase "this nation" was used in one of the sentences. At some point, the paragraph was split into two, with the second now starting "This nation has...". Later, this edit (in good faith, but erroneously) assumed "This nation" meant the USA, and replaced it. I have changed it back, and also recombined the two paragraphs so that we have one about Switzerland and one about Finland. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 21:21, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect specification for Swiss shelters

The specification for a Swiss shelter saying that it must be able to survive a 50 megaton burst within 700 meters cannot be correct as the shelter would be within the crater or fireball of such a large bomb. There have never been any weapons of this size deployed, although one was tested. The specification must be for a 50 kiloton bomb or just maybe a 500 kiloton bomb. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.132.120 (talk) 09:37, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that. Fixed and referenced. Mysterious Whisper (SHOUT) 13:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The numbers in the cited reference are 700 m for a 12 MT burst. This is wrong. According to the "Technische Weisungen für den Pflicht-Schutzraumbau (TWP 184)" (Technical Specifications for Mandatory Shelter Construction) which are still referenced by Swiss gov websites, the criterion is survivability of 1 bar overpressure. The document shows a table for the distances relative to burst size: 7 km for 10 MT, 700 m for 10 kT! Links to the document:

80.218.217.7 (talk) 15:38, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

References

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