Talk:Dollymount

Ancient Map

OS map from 1901

This map is used to give the location of all the following areas. Obviously the map describes the situation nearly 110 years ago. Dollymount is now a built-up suburb; as is Killester, which is also missing from the map.

   * Raheny
   * Artane, Dublin
   * Clontarf, Dublin
   * Bayside, Dublin
   * Kilbarrack
   * Killester
   * Dollymount

Fine to use an old outdated map for some historical reference but surely the current OS maps are the ones to tell what the places are called today?

Also I'm not sure if using the same map repeatedly in so many articles is good practice. Regards (Sarah777 01:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC))

Local Views

Hi, recent to Wikipedia but with a long background in Dublin local history, and a good knowledge of the city today, so my take on the above. In reverse order:
(i) I see this map has been placed in the Commons, which has a distinct lack of historical maps (though there is a lovely one of Leinster). It is a well-known, reputable map, which correctly reflects the district boundaries, which have a history of centuries behind them, and, in contrast to modern border-hopping, are clear. This is important, as otherwise you can get much of Churchtown "in" Rathfarnham, Donaghmede "in" Raheny (which I recall), etc. I agree it would be nice if someone would upload a map centred on each area in turn (any takers?) but this is pretty good for now. Why not use it in each relevant article? - most enquirers will be looking for one specific area anyway. What would help would be if each area had different colouring (which at least one local website has, I think).
(ii) The modern OS maps are not designed to, nor do, give only official names of places, simply recording localities as found. They saw nothing one way or another as to what a place is. Note that Dolloymount is also shown in 1901 - but as part of Clontarf.
(iii) To the main point. Dollymount is, and always has been, part of Clontarf. And quite a late-formed part. Notably, the part of St. Anne's which lies in Clontarf (and is always stated as such) is never described as being in Dollymount. Dollymount is a pleasant locality within the admittedly large area called Clontarf, just as up the road, Edenmore is part of Raheny. Bayside (taken from mostly fields in Kilbarrack) and Donaghemede (formed from the farming inlands of Baldoyle) are quite different.
(iv) And Killester is not missing from the map I am seeing - the whole small district, with its very long hstory, and with a clearly-drawn border, is there.
I actually think this kind of material helps avoid complications and the (from as I read) dreaded Point of View issue, by showing the official boundaries (which are legally recorded).

With regards, skir77 Skir77 22:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Not so sure about the old maps. Mostly the 'legal' areas are rural townlands to begin with. Villages/towns expand into neighbouring countryside; townland names often disappear completely except on musty title deeds. If even that. For example; Citywest. A name for a business park invented less than 20 years ago, now it IS the name of an area; the constituent townlands are not recognised. So the name that counts is the modern name; the name commonly used, the name on OS maps, usually. If a 2006 OS map clashes with a 1904 map - the modern map is usually assumed to reflect current geography.

Cherrywood was merely a part of Loughlinstown when it was a collection of fields outside the built-up area. I lived there once; people would ask "where is Cherrywood" - reply - it's in Loughlinstown. Nowadays a person in Loughlinstown is more likely to have to explain that it is located near Cherrywood, which is now clearly recognised as a separate area; is marked on maps and road signs; has a motorway junction and proposed Luas extension named after it. (Sarah777 23:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC))

Before I tackle the typo in the article, I see this interesting debate. I do not, I think, see a fundamental disagreement on the principles above - Skir77 acknowledges Bayside and Donaghmede, two deliberately formed new suburbs, which I think is equivalent to what Sarah777 (notable presence of 7's there) is saying about Cherrywood and Loughlinstown.
I will leave aside the map topic, as there is something to be taken from both historic and recent maps. But I know for a fact (I used to work in construction) that the OS takes no part in defining areas (they avoid becoming involved in a matter which can become quite heated).

As to the main issue, it so happens I used to live at the St. Anne's Park edge of Raheny, and went to church alternately in Killester and in St. Gabriel's (Dollymount). And as a point of fact, some Dollymount residents did use "Dollymount, Dublin 3" in addresses but many did not. And all were aware the area was part of a "greater Clontarf". The analogy given for Edenmore is not exact, not least due to timing (I saw Edenmore built) but not way out either, as Dollymount was simply a later-developing part of Clontarf, and wholly enclosed by it. I think the approach of a "Dollymount" article is perhaps justified, though the area has few shops or the like of its own, but identified in-article, and in the Clontarf article, as part of the main suburb.

And I suggest caution with comparisons. I have moved to Rathmichael, south of Loughlinstown, and I can assure all that no one will ever need to find Loughlinstown via Cherrywood, not least thanks to the roundabout and hospital. But on the other hand, I would say that Cherrywood, like Bayside, has indeed become an area in its own right.

Anyway, as I was just "passing by", I will fix only the typo and leave the main issue to the 7's. Good luck- 195.16.40.133 23:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

A word to let ye know that while I have not made any distinction on locality-within-Clontarf versus suburb in own right, the historical material I checked (four books) suggests locality. Unless perhaps Dollymount is an enclave like the Isle of Ely in London. Best of luck- 195.16.40.133 23:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Rathmichael etc

Having read the history and looked at the maps it seems 'enclave' is a good description. The 'invented' name 'Dollymount' seems of the 'Citywest' type; though in terms of size Dollymount doesn't really compare to clearly defined areas like Citywest or Cherrywood (though the latest OSi Street Guide doesn't give a district name to Citywest but does to Dollymount). Perhaps if the very well-known beach on the Bull island was called 'Clontarf Strand' instead of Dollymount Strand the name 'Dollymount' would have disappeared?

Small world 195.16.40.133:)....I created the stubs for Cherrywood, Loughlinstown and more recently Rathmichael (there must be few active Wiki Local Historians or Wiki geographers in the area); when linking the Rathmichael article I came across a statement in the Shankill article that made a point of claiming that Rathmichael was not a separate area - but part of Skankill. I know a few Rathmichaelonians who'd quibble with that!

Now that we have your attention 195.16.40.133, you might expand the Rathmichael and Loughlinstown articles; they are dying of neglect!!

(Sarah777 07:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC))

Layout

Good swap on the layout - I like both images but the strand picture makes a good introduction. Although, looking to the argument above, perhaps we need a picture of a road in the district, as the Strand is on the Bull Island, and that is in Clontarf proper, perhaps due to the location of the Wooden Bridge. Skir77 10:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. But I don't have any street pics of Dollymount proper; I'd have trouble even finding it! (Sarah777 10:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

On the location dispute/discussion I've added Dollymount to the "Clontarf" category while also leaving it in "Towns and suburbs of Dublin" - so both views are represented. Precedent here is Windy Arbour which is a separate suburb and in the Dundrum category. This is better than endless debate; unless someone wants to promote their own cul-de-sac to the status of Suburb! (Sarah777 10:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Sounds a neat solution. And good to see much improvement of Dublin's suburbs over the last couple of months, especially the recent establishment of suburb-categories (from 3 to more than 12 in a few weeks). Not always easy issues but someone has to, address them. I will ask-a-friend who lives on Mount Prospect Avenue (one of those funny roads which seems to prefer Clontarf but was one of the roads used to form Dolymount RC parish, which I see now exists in the encyclopedia! Skir77 19:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)