Talk:Distinguished Service Cross (United States)/Archive 1

Archive 1

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What does the Oak Leaf Cluster signify? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.241.225 (talk • contribs) 08:30, January 1, 2006 UTC

A medal that features an Oak leaf generally means that person has been awarded the medal twice. (USMA2010 06:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC))

A Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster indicates a second award, a Silver Oak Leaf Cluster indicates that the medal has been awarded five times.

Nope. It means the medal has been awarded six times. Four bronze oak leafs (five total awards) converts to one silver oak leaf when the six award is made. Rklawton (talk) 15:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

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when you clcik on the link to patrick walsh the man then mentioned is evidently not the man described in the initial text. perhaps this needs amending? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.154.78.17 (talk • contribs) 21:22, March 24, 2006 UTC

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One recipient of the Distinguished Service Cross during World War I went on to earn the Medal of Honor in World War II – Major Theodore Roosevelt, Jr. of the 26th Infantry Regiment, 1st Division, son of the former President.

Douglas MacArthur aslo was awarded the Medal of Honor in the 2nd world War. It was awarded when he left the Phillipins for his defence of the islands.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.62.5.5 (talk • contribs) 18:27, 14 June 2006.

Awards

The section on awards, broken down by conflicts, should be limited to the most prominent recipients. The criteria I used in drafting this section were: DSC recipients who also received the Medal of Honor, multiple DSC recipients, and certain other recipients who went on to establish fame or prominence, such as generals, political figures, and even a few sports figures. The addition of Dick Winters, although misplaced (whoever added him put it in the paragraph on multiple DSC recipients in World War II), is tolerable in that the fame from "Band of Brothers" gives him a certain prominence. Similarly, the prominence of the Son Tay raiders and the DSC recipients portrayed in "We Were Soldiers..." may justify inclusion.

However, there have been over 11,000 awards of the DSC. There simply is not enough space to include every one, no matter how inspired one might be by his or her act of heroism. I would implore people not to edit that section without thinking carefully as to the criteria. Thank you.

The statement above was posted by me when I was not logged in. Airbornelawyer 22:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Neck ribbon

I just saw a video on CNN that showed Lt. Walter Bryan Jackson receiving his award on a neck ribbon.[1] Has there been a change in authorization? It used to be that LoM and MoH were the only two - and the LoM neck ribbon only went to foreigners. Rklawton 23:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

No one addressed this so I guess I will for future readers. I have no idea why the admin personnel that set up that award ceremony affixed his medal to a ribbon to go around his neck, but the DSC is not worn around the neck. The neck ribbon was for the presentation only. Typically the medal will be presented to the soldier by attaching it to the pocket flap, collar, or lapel.If a soldier isn't complaining about something, there's a real problem.... (talk) 06:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Thomas E. Doherty

I could not find any reliably sourced reference that shows that a MSG Thomas Doherty has been awarded posthumously, or otherwise, a DSC; furthermore the individual is not listed here. There is an entry for a William Doherty, but 1SG Doherty was awarded a BSM for an action occurring in April 2005. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Eddie Rickenbacker--Did he get 8 or 9 or 10 Distinguished Service Crosses?

We're having some degree of perplexity over at the Eddie Rickebacker Wiki site. How many DSC's did he actually receive? The Wiki article cites 7 but my copy of his 1967 autobiography "Rickenbacker" cites 9, all earned from April 29, 1918 through Sept. 26, 1918, and listed as "United States" Distinguished Service Cross citations. Then there seems to be a 10th DSC listed as an "American Expeditionary Forces" Distinguished Service Cross, Baussant and medal, also on April 29, 1918, as per his first DSC. (What's the difference between the two?) So it seems he got 10 altogether, although his first one may have been issued twice. Can anybody who is a Rickenbacker expert or DSC expert explain this? Also, how come he got 10 DSC's when most guys got only one? Not to diminish his record (I'm a Rickenbacker fan) but were they handing them out rather liberally at first since it was a new medal? Did they tighten up requirements later? I know the Medal of Honor was given out too freely at first and I seem to recall hundreds of MoH were later rescinded (a female doctor in the Civil War was demanding more money so they gave her the Medal of Honor to keep her from nagging for more money, the MoH was later taken back from her but then in the 1970's, as I recall, President Carter re-awarded her the MoH for political reasons; Lincoln's Honor Guard at his funeral all got the MoH but the medals were later taken back; a group of soldiers in the Civil War were all given the MoH just for re-enlisting, those were later rescinded; for a while there anybody could nominate themselves for the MoH, etc. It seems farcical that the only woman to ever receive the Medal of Honor got it for nagging. How do such things happen?

Pvt. Abraham Krotoshinsky - was awarded as well. WWI.

Mary Edwards Walker earned the MoH for gallantry on the battlefield where she would treat wounded soldiers on the field and under fire. She trusted that her white blouse and large straw hat would cause the Confederates to not shoot her. She received the medal of honor when she asked for retirement benefits. So far as I know, she didn't ask for the MoH. Characterizing her activities as "nagging" isn't supported by history. She lost the MoH due to her activities advocating woman's rights, particularly the right to wear pants in public without being arrested for impersonating a man. Carter restored her MoH because the medal had been revoked for political reasons and not the other way around. Rklawton (talk) 17:06, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Edits for Operation Enduring Freedom Awards

Made the following edits on February 7, 2011:

Deleted the entry for SSG Jason Adams, ODA 3312, 3d Bn, 3d SFG. This entry could not be verified. No citation, no news release, no press reports verifying this award could be found. The action cited was an ambush involving ODA 3312 for which SSG Robbie Miller was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor. Other members of the team were also decorated in a separate ceremony at Ft. Bragg, for which press accounts exist. No mention of SSG Jason Adams can be found in any accounts of this action. Any information on circumstances of award, citation, press release, etc would be appreciated.

Added award of DSC to SSG James Takes, C Company, 2d Battalion, 503d Infantry. His citation and picture can be found at the Military Times.com Hall of Valor. The award was noted in the local press and is chronicled in the Paraglide, the Ft. Bragg military newspaper and on the U.S. Army homepage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lvncenturion (talk • contribs) 21:05, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Unit Award

In the article Presidential Unit Citation (United States), it is mentioned that the PUC is the unit equivalent of the the DSC/NC/AFC, however there is no mention of the PUC's equivalence on this article page. As there is not a section in the infobox, should this be included somewhere in the article?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:23, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Page 80 of Army Regulation 600–8–22 states, "The degree of heroism required is the same as that which would warrant award of a Distinguished Service Cross to an individual." I would say downward mobility to the unit award, I don't know about upward mobility to the individual decoration. Cheers. EricSerge (talk) 19:07, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Louis Misseri

Is this individual, who does not have a wikipedia article, notable enough to warrant an article, and thus should be listed on the list of notable recipients of the DSC? The individual has only received one DSC, so the individual is not notable per WP:SOLDIER. Furthermore, the individual has very few mentions in reliable sources, including only four passing mentions in books.

If there is no objection, I will remove the listing on 20FEB2013.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I have no objection, but he was also awarded the Silver Star and was an Officer of the Legion of Honour. I had just started to find French sources on Misseri. I am traveling right now, so my downtime is limited, but I will see what I can find otherwise. I found a passing reference to Misseri being the "French Rambo" and was exploring that avenue to look for general notability. Cheers. EricSerge (talk) 17:01, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Ricardo Massa

I am sorry, but this addition appears to be a hoax. The source provided to verify the content appears to fall under WP:SPS; I have created a discussion regarding the source at RSN. I have not been able to find any additional reliable sources to verify that the individual was awarded the DSC.

Can the editor who has repeatedly added the content please provide us other editors additional information?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:03, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree to you RightCow. On that wix.com WP:SPS every other recipient can be found in other independent sources as DSC recipients, but Massa cannot. EricSerge (talk) 20:12, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Massa doesn't appear to exist in the Army at all. That and the rank given by the editor in question doesn't really line up for Delta. Intothatdarkness 20:15, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

you are wrong is the source of U.S. Army you are violating the right to publish freely and apqrte in contenudo and real and true Fünte so you just delete it admits non aver lost and gained his black fucking piece of shit!! ahahhahahahahha — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnwuein (talk • contribs) 16:03, 12 March 2013

The information that Johnwuein maybe adding may be accurate, however on Wikipedia one of the pillars of the editing community is WP:VER. If there is no reliable source provided, the content cannot be verified. Furthermore, it is the burden of the adding editor to provide the reliable source(s).

If those sources can be found, please let us know.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 00:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Julius Aaronson

Would getting this award tiwce, on the same day, be noteworthy enough to include? I have a reference ( Wyllie, Col. Robert E. (1921). Orders, Decorations and Insignia: Military and Civil. New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, the Knickerbocker Press. pp. 58–9.) saying that a private Julius Aaronson was cited twice for actions on October 7, 1918 in WWI near Apremont. Gecko G (talk) 00:04, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

William H Campbell

I just deleted all the material regarding William H. Campbell from the main page. It turns out he was the recipient of the Distinguished Flying Cross, not the DSC. He is not on the DSC list for WWII which can be checked here. The link in the deleted material was dead, but I was able to pull up another reference showing the correct medal here. Roam41 (talk) 23:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

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Individual listings of recipients

Individuals who have received the distinguished service cross may receive significant coverage in non-primary reliable sources, but often only for the event which lead to being awarded the DSC, and receiving the medal. Therefore the individual may fall into WP:BIO1E, and per WP:NLIST as the event may be this medal, the individual should be listed here in an appropriate section.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:11, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@RightCowLeftCoast: I disagree. LISTBIO says "the entries must have the same importance to the subject as would be required for the entry to be included in the text of the article" and I don't think that's the case here. All of the awardees listed for prior conflicts are themselves discussed in standalone articles. What you're encouraging will lead to more name-checking. I always point to WP:WTAF in instances like this. Beside that, the table is out of place compared with the paragraphs of text preceding it. The coverage for OIF/OEF is borderline WP:UNDUE. Further, your argument basically admits these awardees are not notable and should be listed here because they don't merit a standalone article. These lists do not exist to include entries as some sort of compensation prize. You do not have consensus for this and the onus on the editor adding content, not the one removing it. Please revert yourself back to status quo ante. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:24, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I have to agree with Chris on this one about the WP:WTAF. The massive tables for the recent awardees invites criticism for WP:Recentism. EricSerge (talk) 20:21, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with the above, as the individuals listed in the lists meet significant coverage, all be it for a single event. As such, if the above editors disagree with the list format. There is the possible option to reduce the size of the content by converting the information into prose, and to provide red links to where new articles can be created.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:41, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

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Order of precedence

@Garuda28:, please help me understand the reason for this edit doesn't it not follow the order of precedence.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:31, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Did it to align with the order we have on Awards and decorations of the United States Armed Forces. My understanding is that that order of precedence does not address Homeland Security or DOD, only individual service branches. Do we have a definitive order that contradicts the order on the main page? Garuda28 (talk) 04:43, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

According to what reliable source does HS go before DoD in order of precedence? See Homeland Security Distinguished Service Medal#Order of precedence, what RS is provided? The WP:BURDEN is on Garuda28 (talk · contribs), not me.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:51, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Also see this:

"These regulations shall place the Homeland Security Distinguished Service Medal in an order of precedence immediately before the Coast Guard Distinguished Service Medal."

This does not place it over DoD Distinguished Service Medals.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:53, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

It was just to allign with the order of precedence currently reflected on the main awards page. If it isn’t, then we’ll have to change it there as well. I’ll revert my edit while I try to find a definitive answer. Could be a little difficult since each branch is different, but I’ll present what I find on the talk page of the main awards page. Thanks for pointing this out. Garuda28 (talk) 04:57, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

@RightCowLeftCoast: Looks like your source is the only one I was able to find. It puts the medal above USCG, so I'll go ahead and make those edits now. Thanks for correcting me! 05:04, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Garuda28: each branch is definitely different, for instance the USCG uses a different order of precedence for medals, than say the Army (see 22-4) (which would place the Homeland Security Distinguished Service Medal well below where it would be found on say a Coastie's uniform), or say the Navy (see Article 5304).--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:13, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, this makes a lot of this quite confusing. Its easy for the services, since we do have the service order of precedence, and its commonly accepted that DOD is in front. With Homeland that just opens up another bag of worms. This does bring up a question - do we have an idea where DHS fits in the order of precedence (that is universally accepted). I'm thinking we might have to apply that to this if there is no commonality between the services. AFI 36-2903 doesn't even reflect that medal. Garuda28 (talk) 05:19, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

@McChizzle: Got any knowledge that could help resolve this. I think I am thoroughly confused. Garuda28 (talk) 13:06, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Air Force often keeps close to the Army when it comes to certain things, wouldn't be surprised if they are listed after AF medals, and after other DoD medals like the Army does it.

11.5.44 United States Nonmilitary Decorations. (listed below are a follow examples of awards by federal agencies). If Air Force members wear more than one, arrange in order of acceptance. If member wears two or more from the same agency, that specific agency decides the precedence

So after Military awards, but before conduct and service medals.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:29, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

On the question of the Homeland Security Distinguished Service Medal's precedence, I am happy to eco the previous statements for it's hard to find regulations and manuals that address cross-department awards and their precedence, given most departments only focus on themselves. That brings me to the salient point I feel we must consider, department level awards. Each service defines the precedence of military awards—yes, the Homeland Security Distinguished Service Medal is a military award—a little differently. So, we need to keep in mind that the Homeland Security Distinguished Service Medal is a department level award for distinguished service, not a service level award like the Coast Guard's Distinguished Service Medal, which is equivalent to the Army/Navy/Air Force Distinguished Service Medals. It is very appropriate that the Homeland Security Distinguished Service Medal be viewed as equivalent to the Defense Distinguished Service Medal in general, given each service will always ask that their service or department award be worn on the uniform in advance of any other. --McChizzle (talk) 23:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

McChizzle is correct. The Homeland Security Distinguished Service Medal is equivalent to the Defense Distinguished Service Medal. Order of precedence depends on which cabinet level department a military service falls under. For example, if the uniformed service member is in the Coast Guard and were to receive both awards (which has been done before), then that coast guardsman would ware the Homeland Security Distinguished Service Medal before the Defense Distinguished Service Medal. In the case of a service member of any of the other four armed services, the Defense Distinguished Service Medal would be worn before the Homeland Security Distinguished Service Medal. Neovu79 (talk) 03:40, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Archive 1