Talk:Dassaretii

New section

Both Polybius & Livy have made a clear distinction of the Epirote Dexari/Dassaretae with the Illyrian tribes. Obviously this part [[1]] has been copy-pasted from the Greek tribe. Certainly those are areas far from the Drin valley -lake Ohrid where the Illyrian Dassaretii lived.Alexikoua (talk) 17:49, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Especially in the case of Cabanes we have source misuse since the author states that the southern limit of the Illyrian tribes was the line stretching from Acroceraunians to Damastion.Alexikoua (talk) 17:51, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Both Polybius and Livy mention Dassaretae/Dassaretii among other Illyrian tribes, never as Chaonian or Epirotan. There is recent bibliography about it. – Βατο (talk) 17:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

No, they make clear distinction, as already stated, Hammond: Since the Epirote coast was conceived as running more

from east to west than from south to north (324), Strabo's 'inland' area was (for us)
north-east in relation to the line of the coast.39
It follows from Strabo's statement that the other tribes south of the line and
extending down to the Ambraciote Gulf were Epirotic. Of these the most northerly
near the coast were the 'Abantes' or 'Amantes' or 'Amantoi', since all these forms
occur, and the farthest inland the Dassaretae, known to Hecataeus as the 'Dexaroi, a
tribe of the Chaonians, next to the Encheleae' (FGrH i F Io3; and for the Encheleae
see Strabo 326).40 The distinction between Illyrians and Dassaretii is seen also in Livy
42. 36. 9 (following Polybius), 'ad occupanda Dassaretiorum et Illyriorum castella'Alexikoua (talk) 18:00, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Even the source you provided (Nade Proeva) states clearly that this tribe can't be classified as Illyrian.Alexikoua (talk) 18:02, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

@Alexikoua that is only Hammond's view, why do you ignore all the other authors? Nade Proeva supports the Brygian affiliation of Dassaretae classifying the common Illyrian names as Near Eastern/Anatolian, don't derail the discussion. – Βατο (talk) 18:04, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

You understand that your intention is to create a POVFORK of the Dassaretae, right? Creating a new article about the same geographic region but this time labelling it Illyrian. Actually this article can stay only because modern scholarship (Hammond etc) stated that there are two tribes of the same or similar name. If you dissagree with this view then this article should be deleted. POVFORKS are not allowed. Alexikoua (talk) 18:10, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

There is a great number of modern sources about the subject of this article, you can nominate it for deletion if you think so. – Βατο (talk) 18:13, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I assume that by creating this article you accept Hammond's view as a fact (i.e the existence of two tribes). " according to Strabo , the Ceraunian Mountains should be regarded as the frontier between the two , as well as the line connecting them with the the mines of Damastium in the region of the Dassaretes near Lake Lychnidus , present - day Lake Ohrid" (Kos, 2005, citing Cabanes)". Well in case you don't falsify sourced material there is no problem.Alexikoua (talk) 18:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I did not falsify sources, Cabanes supports it. This article is about the Illyrian tribe, which according to sources inhabited the region of southern Illyria. Among scholars there is an ongoing discussion about their exact location. – Βατο (talk) 18:26, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Based on the above evidence those sources you claim need to be accesible (for example non-offline material) since I've proved that Cabanes supports a different view. If a source does not pass wp:V there is no way to add unverified material that contradicts even the same author.Alexikoua (talk) 18:31, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

No, you did not provide Cabanes' views, which were those you removed from the article adding only Hammond's views. This is not constructive. – Βατο (talk) 18:39, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

You are ignoring the views of Hammond, Wilkes, Winnifrith, Cambridge Ancient History, Oxford Classical Dictionary. On the other hand you provide an offline Croatian translation of Cabanes. You understand that AGF has some limits. Would you be kind enough to follow wp:V?Alexikoua (talk) 18:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Winnifrith does not, here are quotes from him (2002), p. 46: "Among Illyrian tribes, apart from the Enchelidae we find the Taulantii, Bylliones, Parthini and Bryges; other Illyrian tribes lived north of the River Shkumbin, as indeed did some of the Taulantii, since they were the barbarians who threatened Epidamnus. There is also a rather mysterious tribe called Sesarethi; they too may give their name to Dassaretis, although in what may be another case of transhumance the Dassaretae in Roman times are found near Berat." p. 214: "Dassaretae, Illyrian tribe" And Cabanes' views are clear from the quotes I provided in other articles (he supports even the Dassaretan origin of Bardylis' dynasty). Also there is Fox (2011) who supports it. Why are you completely ignoring the entire bibliography of this article unconstructively removing sourced content? – Βατο (talk) 19:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Why is the specific Dassaretae tribe in p. 46 connected with the one in p.214? Winnifrith is more precise on the territory of the Greek Dassaretae here: Winnifrith, Tom (1992). Perspectives On Albania. Springer. p. 35. ISBN 978-1-349-22050-2. They were neighbours of Greek-speaking tribes, grouped under the common name Chaones, of whom the most northerly, the Dassaretae, extended into the lakeland south of Lake Ochrid.

(Winnifrith does not accept that Dassaretae are exclusively Illyrian as you claim, in fact the Greek Dassaretae where located south of Ohrid)

• Also, Kos, cites directly the original version of Cabanes, 1988:

according to Strabo , the Ceraunian Mountains should be regarded as the frontier between the two , as well as the line connecting them with the the mines of Damastium in the region of the Dassaretes near Lake Lychnidus , present - day Lake Ohrid/Ohrisko jezero, Strabo's outline of their territories has been generally accepted(23)(Cabanes, 1988, a, 20, ff.. To sum up Winnifrith, Kos, Cabanes (if we believe Kos that cites him) reject your theory of an Illyrian megatribe (from Drin down to Atintania, almost from Kosovo to the Greek border) called Dassaretae/ii.Alexikoua (talk) 20:00, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

It seems you haven't read that book: the quote you provided is from Hammond (1992) in the chapter "The Relations of Illyrian Albania with the Greeks and the Romans". While Winnifrith (2002) considers clearly the Dassaretae as Illyrian in both pages where he talks about them. The text you unconstructively removed from this article is sourced in both the editions of Cabanes (1988, 2002), moreover you removed content sourced also with more recent bibliography. While regarding the location of this tribe, there is an ongoing discussion among scholars. – Βατο (talk) 20:14, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

It's a volume editted by T. Winnifirth, and it clearly states that south of Ohrid there is a Dassaretae tribe of the Chaonian group (not Illyrian). Also when one author adds 'Illyrian' inside brackets ('illyrico') he has a serious reason to do that. Please stop misusing sourced material.Alexikoua (talk) 20:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

WP:POVFORK attempt is a disruptive initiative.Alexikoua (talk) 20:25, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

There are many reliable sources that analyzes the subject of this article. It can not be classified as such. The sourced content you unconstructively removed should be restored. – Βατο (talk) 20:33, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Creating POVFORKS and falsifying sourced material isn't exactly a productive way of editting. A Dassaretae mega-tribe stretching all the way from Drin to Atintania never existed. But as per wp:AGF I believe you can provide a copy of Cabanes (or the Croatian translation since your views are not supported by western literature).Alexikoua (talk) 20:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Also considered diferrent from the Illyrians were the Dassaretes in Livy (Kos, 2006-7 The list is endless. You also took a source that lists Dassaretii as 'Illyrian' in brackets inside a footnote. Stop POVFORKingAlexikoua (talk) 20:59, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

The whole country as far as Corcyra” also comprised a few Epirote and Illyrian peoples and tribes, including the Taulantii, Parthini, Bylliones, and Amantes who were Illyrian, as well as the Dassaretes, Parauaei, and Chaones, who were Epirote (Kos, 2015, Corcyra_in_Strabos_Geography, citing Cabanes 1988, 46; 61-66).Alexikoua (talk) 21:02, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Reporting some of Sasel Kos' suggestions citing Cabanes is not a good way to assume what Cabanes himself claimed in his book Les Illyriens de Bardulis à Genthios (IVe–IIe siècles avant J.-C.). To find the Croatian version you can search the title Iliri od Bardileja do Gencija: (IV.-II. stoljeće prije Krista). But I have already added many quotes from the French version with also the English translations, and I will not repeat them here because it seems you kept ignoring them. – Βατο (talk) 21:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

The list is not endless, the only passage that distinguish Dassaretii and Illyrii is this one in Livy: inde tribunos cum duobus milibus militum ad occupanda Dassaretiorum et Illyriorum castella. That is reasonable because in Roman times the proper Illyrians were considered only those on the coastal zone of southern Illyria, who constituted the core of the Ardiaean Realm. Palazzo (2010) considers that along with Taulanti, the Dassareti were the only Illyrian ethnic reported by Livy that lived south of Via Egnatia. Polomé claims that they were located in "the old kingdom of Illyria, south of Lissos", and more precisely "inland, near Lake Lychnidos and in the Drin valley". – Βατο (talk) 22:40, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

See p.112 Beiträge zur Geschichte der Besiedlung Nord- und Mitteldeutschlands-Kunstmann (1987): Die Dassaretae waren einer der bedeutendsten illyrischen Stämme, dessen Siedelgebiet sich von der Stadt Lychnidos am gleichnamigen See bis zur Stadt Antipatria am unteren Apsos erstreckte. [The Dassaretae were one of the most important Illyrian tribes, whose settlement area stretched from the city of Lychnidos on the lake of the same name to the city of Antipatria on the lower Apsos.]--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @Maleschreiber, but it seems that Alexikoua wants to include only Hammond's assumptions excluding all other respectable scholars who don't support what he likes. – Βατο (talk) 23:02, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

MSchreiber provided the first ever source here which mentions a presence in Antipatria-Lychnidus. That's good since Bato insisted on falsifying a mountain of literature (Cabanes, Palazzo etc.). By the way Korce-Maliq-Devol regions are not mentioned in this source.Alexikoua (talk) 07:55, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@Bato POVFORKing is unacceptable. Again when an author adds brackets in a specific word he has a serious reason to do this. You don't believe that two different tribes inhabited the very same settlements. For future reference Cabanes states that they were not Illyrian have you ever followed wp:V?Alexikoua (talk) 05:53, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Do not remove sourced content. The Croatian version of Cabanes is easily available online. While you can add Proeva's views if you include a WP:NPOV analyzis. – Βατο (talk) 08:39, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Cabanes clearly states that the Illyrian southern limit was located further north (Damastion-Ceraunian line) and I have provided "online" accessible citation for this fact from Kos. POVFORK attempts by falsifying sources is quite disruptive. Not to mention you also falsify Pallazo by interpreting that his "Illyrian" interpretation is without brackets.Alexikoua (talk) 09:01, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Cabanes clearly states what is in the article, you can't remove it per WP:JDL. As I said previously, you can access the Croatian version online. Your arguments to justify the unconstructive removal of sourced material are weak. – Βατο (talk) 09:07, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

You insist on creating povforks. Let me remind you you that: POV forks generally arise when contributors disagree about the content of an article or other page. Instead of resolving that disagreement by consensus, another version of the article (or another article on the same subject) is created to be developed according to a particular point of view. This second article is known as a "POV fork" of the first, and is inconsistent with policy: all facts and major points of view on a certain subject should be treated in one article. As Wikipedia does not view article forking as an acceptable solution to disagreements between contributors, such forks may be merged, or nominated for deletion. So, you insist that a tribe of the same name inhabited that same region and the same cities, but you created a different article. That's a highly disruptive pattern that needs to be avoided. Alexikoua (talk) 09:09, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

No, the other article is about the Chaonian tribe, this one is about the Illyrian tribe. It is not on the same subject. – Βατο (talk) 09:16, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

You still insist that two tribes of the same name that inhabited the same region, same settlements same time (according to your "offline" sources) are different? Well then here you pretended [[2]] something different.Alexikoua (talk) 09:29, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

No, I did not pretend "something different". The other article is about the Chaonian tribe, this one is about the Illyrian tribe. – Βατο (talk) 09:33, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

You need decent reference to present those tribes as different as long as you are obsessed to place them in the very same place&time.Alexikoua (talk) 09:45, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The content of the article is well sourced with full quotes. – Βατο (talk) 09:47, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• Beiträge zur Geschichte der Besiedlung Nord- und Mitteldeutschlands-Kunstmann (1987): Die Dassaretae waren einer der bedeutendsten illyrischen Stämme, dessen Siedelgebiet sich von der Stadt Lychnidos am gleichnamigen See bis zur Stadt Antipatria am unteren Apsos erstreckte. [The Dassaretae were one of the most important Illyrian tribes, whose settlement area stretched from the city of Lychnidos on the lake of the same name to the city of Antipatria on the lower Apsos.] @Βατο: that there was a Desseratian Illyrian tribe is indisputable. If Alexikoua thinks this is a WP:POVFORK he can start an AfD. It will definitely WP:BOOMERANG IMO, but there's no point in arguing what is POVFORK here- there are appropriate community procedures for that to be discussed. So, Bato can go on with his day and write other articles or do whatever else and Alexikoua can also write other articles or prepare that AfD. Hic Rhodus, hic salta.--Maleschreiber (talk) 10:20, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

As I've stated I didn't questioned the validity of the specific source. However, Antipatria, isn't Korce, Devol, Maliq as Bato insists.Alexikoua (talk) 10:23, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

He "didn't question the validity of the specific source", but he questioned Cabanes, Fox, Zindel, Lippert, Lahi, Kiel, etc. for no reason. – Βατο (talk) 10:30, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

You actually mean the supposed offline Croatian translation of Cabanes you presented in addition to the cultural-guide edited by the rest (Fox, Zindel, Lippert, Lahi, Kiel) which states about a possible Illyrian site near Korce.Alexikoua (talk) 10:47, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

You can simply access the Croatian version online, but you refuse to do that. The French quotes from the original book are already in the article, you can use a translator for them. – Βατο (talk) 11:04, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

S. Kos needs to be updated

I wonder why we should insist on her older publications while in more recent papers she an updated picture on the Dassaretae see: Marjeta Šašel Kos, Corcyra in Strabo’s Geography, 2015.Alexikoua (talk) 01:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Hatzopoulos

I've removed Hatzopoulos (2020) since he doesn't claim something about them being Illyrian, however Hatzopoulos (1997) was placed instead. In fact Hatzopoulos rejects this specific claim in his 1997 work.Alexikoua (talk) 15:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

In fact Hatzopoulos rejects this specific claim in his 1997 work. His considerations are clear, no need for your WP:OR: Hatzopoulos 1993, p. 84: "...il serait, entre autres, susceptible de nous livrer des informations précieuses sur l'origine des populations (et de leur culture) de la zone intermédiaire et peut-être bilingue, entre la Chaonie indubitablement épirote et le pays des Dassarètes et des Parthins non moins indubitablemente illyrien." – Βατο (talk) 17:39, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

You understand that yu are again deep into wp:OR territory. Let's make it simple:

Deferrence between article and citation.

Your view

Hatzopoulos (1997)

Dassaretae an Illyrian tribe

Hatzopoulos 1997, p. 144:"The fragmentarity and corruption of the manuscript tradition of the available sources makes it impossible to clarify the relations between the Dassaretioi and the Encheleis. Study of the peronsal names of these regions might help to resolve the matter. Unfortunately, only those from the areas in the former Yugoslavia have been collected: and although these exhibit the expected intermingling of a clear majority of Greek, and indded Macedonian, names with few Illyrian ones, especially in the south, and also with a few other, probably Phyrgian names they do not permit the drawing of any clear conclusion."Alexikoua (talk) 18:37, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Does it sound like they were Illyrian in Hatzopoulos 1997? You understand that this is enough for a POV tag since you placed this specific citation. Alexikoua (talk) 18:37, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

That part is about: "to clarify the relations between the Dassaretioi and the Encheleis", it is clear, come on! About the Dassaretioi he states: "The phenomenon of the intermingling of Greek and non-Greek elements, with the latter on occasion not being Illyrian but belonging to earlier population strata, is even more pronounced in the regions assigned by Strabo to the Illyrian ethne of the Bryges, Encheleis and Dassaretioi." Anyway, I placed in the lede sentence Hatzopoulos 1993, p. 84: "...il serait, entre autres, susceptible de nous livrer des informations précieuses sur l'origine des populations (et de leur culture) de la zone intermédiaire et peut-être bilingue, entre la Chaonie indubitablement épirote et le pays des Dassarètes et des Parthins non moins indubitablemente illyrien." No need to continue this discussion as per WP:FORUM. – Βατο (talk) 18:47, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I fail to see why 'come on' can be considered an argument here. Such expressions indeed fall to wp:FORUM Hatzopoulos does not agree with Strabo's description that's why he concludes that he is unable to drawing any clear conclusion. It's very typical for modern authors to disagree with ancient ones.Alexikoua (talk) 19:06, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

But its not this case, he is talking about "to clarify the relations between the Dassaretioi and the Encheleis", read again the quote you provided. Anyway, it is not relevant because I did not include info from Hatzopoulos improperly as you did in the article about the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο (talk) 19:43, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Source

I removed the highgly criticised source recently added by Alexikoua: [3]. Hatzopoulos 1997 has discussed that author's views (many of which are WP:FRINGE), and his conclusions have already been included into the article. Also the relevant information about the Bryges has been already included, as discussed by Šašel Kos 2005, in a WP:DUE WEIGHT manner. – Βατο (talk) 02:16, 15 February 2024 (UTC)