Talk:Cypriot Greek

Untitled

I think that someone should add a section on the phonology of vowels in Cypriot Greek. Thanks, I'm merely an interested seeker.

1. I disagree strongly with the statement Using dialect conveys no social or educational inferiority. Whoever wrote it - do you live in Cyprus??? It is obviously not true! Αν λαλείς εσούνι αντί εσύ εν φκάλλεις γεναίκα στο Zoo ένεν (-: I believe there was a study at the University of Cyprus which showed speakers of dialect were perceived by Cypriot listeners as being stupider than speakers of kalamaristika.

2. Outside of such settings, however, two Cypriots do not speak Standard Greek with each other. - I think that these settings are related to class (and village/city) factors. I have heard Cypriots doing it. The statement, to me, is also false, because (although we could argue about how rare or often it happens) it is a generalization.

3. No mention of Turkish, Arabic, English, Italian etc loan words, and non-Greek phonemes (j, ch, sh, the french j).

-Taramenos-

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On point 3: this is a wiki, go ahead and add information to the article. On points 1,2 : there is social-educational status related to the form of dialect used e.g εσούνι is not popular but τζιαι is etc. But who would use standard greek in everyday conversation? A softcore version of the dialect is not standard greek! Mavros 14:15, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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Mavre: I dont understand what you mean by "social-educational status" and how it is linked to the εσούνι/τζαι example.

For But who would use standard greek in everyday conversation?: Hypothetically, we have a continuum from the most 'proper' (acrolect) to the most 'χωρκάτικα' (basilect). Example: Πήγαινε (Δημοτική).

Πήγαιννε (softcore. this is how e.g. a G/C politician would say it).

Πήαιννε (γ deletion. This is already a marker of cypriotness and would not be used in more upper-class circles).

Πάειννε (hardcore).

The softcore version of the dialect is not standard greek - Standard Greek as such only exists in text or non-conversational contexts like lectures, courts, the news etc, whether we are talking about Greece or Cyprus - but the softcore version is a marker of economic class, education and being from the city (εσούνι is not popular in Nicosia for example but in some areas it is normal, or at least it was before the effects of the media and schools). What is considered normal/correct in more educated and high-class urban circles is directly influenced by being more Greek and less χωρκάτικο. The prestige of these circles affects the norms of society in general. That is what I was trying to say in the 2nd point. When I wrote it I was thinking specifically of watching parents talking καλαμαρίστικα to their children in a park in Nicosia. Havent you observed similar behaviour?

Taramenos Mar 7

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Feel free to make changes (be bold). Mentioning diglossia and foreign influences was quite a good change. And register a username so that we can have this discussion in your talk page rather than filling up the talk page of the article. Πρόσεχε α, είμαι λεμεσιανός! Mavros 23:58, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

--- May 15th: Whoever added the dictionary, it is not a good idea. There are real dictionaries and they are book size. Also some of the words I have never heard (Eshw, koritsa). The dictionary here is very very bad. Greek Mia hara Cypriot Mia hara. It is a joke, Whoever did it does not know good greek or cypriot. I am deleting it.

Well Mavros if you feel like that, please add a real Cypriot dictionary so that all Cypriots can enjoy and learn from it. My Cypriot would be much different to yours, I've learnt it off people 75+, and Pafites and Pitsiles, so forgive me.

People please sign so that we can have a decent conversation. I didn't delete any dictionary. Somebody deleted the hiphop reference, why? Mavros 18:25, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

ta korakistika? ;)

Afiste to hip-hop mian pantan, eksiasete "eshievereven" hahaha!

P.S. if you want to learn the cypriot dialect, try visiting it for instance, you can't get this right without a vocal hearing. If you're going to add words, add only a few important ones, because this isn't a dictionary website :\ (unless you succeed into making the dictionary a nice part of the article hehe). You might as well start adding words in wiktionary.--www.doc 12:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposals for working on this page

Today is July 21st. I propose anyone who is interested in changing the article we talk about it a little and set a date, say in 6 months, by which we can work at achieving the goals. My thoughts: 1) technical linguistic description. I just added some stuff in a new syntax section (moved 'εν' there as well). How detailed do we want to get? I could go to the library and get the books and type up characteristics of syntax, morphology and phonology; it would take me a few hours and that is fine with me. Ideally do we think it should achieve the same level of technical description as the Greek language entry? Not likely but a nice idea! The phonology section is good. Morphology needs work. All could do with work.

2) sociology. For example Αντρέας Παναγιώτου has suggested that the "dialect" is in fact a language in more than one article. I think this might be good to add, not as fact but to show that the opinion exists. Generally going through the literature (which is quite small) and writing up shot references bit by bit. Maybe adding some better descriptions of where it is used and has been used. e.g. television, radio, print, ποιητάρηδες, etc.

3) An overview of different writing formats used.

4) Links. Maybe we should link to other sites with some examples of cypriot greek, such as blogs etc.

5) References would be good. Whatever we cannot explain in enough detail, at least the reader can find out where to learn.

6) Slowly translating the article to Greek.

Taramenos

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And can someone give me an example of: "Present participles ending in -οντα instead of Modern Greek -οντας." For example if I think of Modern Greek "μιλόντας των παιδιών", I have not heard "μιλόντα των παιθκιών". Have I misunderstood this? Or is it basilect I have not heard? I am 27 from Nicosia.

Thinking about it (maybe I am wrong) it seems that we Cypriots have a tendency to avoid the 'present participle' and use other strategies to express the same meaning? e.g "σαν εμίλουν των παιθκιών". Otherwise I just hear or use the Modern Greek -οντας.

I have another proposal:

7) Any discussion about the technical features should be in Cypriot Greek? Anyone who has anything to contribute would know it anyway? Άτε.

Taramenos (July 21st 2006)

Typical example: "emeinamen haskonta", I've also heard and used "stekonta" and you can find more examples in literature : "Eto pou sou katevika pale traoudistonta" (Mihailidis). I think -onta is also used in Griko (Southern Italy).But yes, this is gradually being replaced by the standard modern greek, and yes, people tend to avoid using participles.

1. Don't know enough linguistics to have an opinion, but more detail is always a good thing.

2 &5. Interesting thoughts, again a good idea to provide references (e.g. Yiangoullis for an anthology of poiitarides).

3. Sure

4. Links with caution, it's better to have links just about the dialect itself and have links about poets, writers, hip hop groups etc in the corresponding pages.

I disagree with 7, since this is the english language wikipedia other users with any knowledge of linguistics etc should be able to read the talk page and know what's going on (just my opinion anyway, not sure if there's a wikipedia policy). Mavros 14:38, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

interesting about haskonta/haskontas.

4 there are some links on the greek wikipedia entry, I have not checked them all out yet. (The greek wikipedia entry has improved a lot in the last months by the way)

for references a good start would be a dictionary (Yiangoullis has one, there are more), and a grammar.

You have convinced me about 7. As for 4 extra links never hurt anyone.

Gennika miloumen ta pou konta.

Taramenos 17:38, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

τζείνος, -η, -ο -- Is it really a syntactic characteristic of Cypriot Greek?

I am not Greek or Cypriot and have never been to Cyprus. I am merely an amateur linguist who has studied modern Greek, so please forgive me if this suggestion sounds absurd...

In the syntax section, it is mentionned that there is a demonstrative, τζείνος, which corresponds to "that there". It seems to me however, that this exists in standard δημοτική, in the form of (ε)κείνος, and that the Cypriot τζείνος is simply the result of palatalisation, parallel to και --> τζιαι. Is τζείνος is syntactically or semantically different from κείνος in any way? If not, maybe it would be more correct to move this up to the phonology section.

Daniel, 15:12, 30 July 2006 (NZT)

Yes τζείνος functions as εκείνος both semantically and syntactically. I left it in syntax with a note that it is the same as εκείνος and also added it to the palatalisation rule as another example. --Taramenos 11:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Literature

Can anybody write a few words about poetry in the Cypriot Greek dialect?

Here is a start:

Ἀντάν κ̌ί' ἀρκέψαν οἱ κρυφοί ἀνέμοι κ̌ί' ἐφυσούσαν
κ̌ί' ἀρκίνησεν εἴς τήν Τουρκ̌ιάν νά κρυφοσυνεφκιάζη
κ̌αί πού τές τέσσερεις μερκές τά νέφη ἐκουβαλούσαν,
ώστι νά κάμουν τόν κ̌αιρόν ν' ἀρκεύκη νά στοιβάζη,
εἴχ̌εν σγιάν εἴχαν οὕλοι τοῦς κ̌ι ἡ Ǩύπρου τό κρυφόν τῆς
μέσ' στοῦς ἀνέμους τοῦς κρυφούς εἴχ̌εν τό μερτικόν τῆς.
κ̌ί' ἀντάν ἐφάνην ἡ στραπή εἴς τοῦ Μοριά τά μέρη
κ̌ί' ἐξάπλωσεν κ̌ι' ἀκούστηκεν παντού ἡ πουμπουρκά τῆς,
κ̌ί' οὕλα ξηλαμπρακ̌ίσασιν κ̌αί θάλασσα κ̌αί ξέρη
εἴχ̌εν σγιάν εἴχαν οὕλοι τοῦς κ̌ἰ' ἡ Ǩύπρου τά κακά τῆς.
Ἑννάτη Ἰουλίου, Βασίλης Μιχαηλίδης

Please correct my polytonic. If someone can find a refence and check if this is exactly how Basilns Mixanlidns wrote it I would appreciate it. thanks. --Kupirijo 08:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

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Kuprijo your additions in morphology and phonology are really good, you have really raised the standard of the article. (ένιωθα πολλά λλίος για τα λάθη μου, τέλος πάντων...)

For some reason I cannot read a lot of the letters, they look like squares instead. Do I need to install fonts?

For poetry I am no expert. What do you think needs to be added?

I have been reading some Lipertis and noticed that the Cypriot consonants are notated by apostrophes, σ' is sh, τσ' is ch, τζ' is j. Will add more later.

--Taramenos 11:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

• Hello Taramenos. Can you be a bit more specific? Is it polytonic in general that does not show, or is it just the carons  ̌? I use Windows XP and Ubuntu Linux and I can see them with no problem (without installing any fonts). What operating system are you using? --Kupirijo 19:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oh and another thing, does Lipertis use polytonic? I am assuming so, right? We could use σ̌ τσ̌ and τζ̌ but I prefer the χ̌ (for χ and σ), χ̌χ̌ (for σκ), κ̌κ̌ and κ̌ instead. I definitely think we should add some sort of literature excerpt like other pages do. That is why I thought Basilns Mixanlidns was a good example. It is such a classic. If you prefer Lipertis let me know. Cheers. --Kupirijo 19:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

2. Yes he uses polytonic. I have no preference for a poet, but for now most of the vowels look like squares for me. I just mentioned lipertis because we had talked about describing different writing systems. --Taramenos 09:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the fonts don't worry i can see everything now :) --Taramenos 21:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! I was going to recommend using Firefox. It is a much better web browser in my opinion. --Kupirijo 22:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Lets add some words

Perhaps rather than just the technical aspects of the language

up to say 30 examples of standard greek, cypriot greek and its english transliteration should be added in table form, so people can gauge an understanding of the technicalities. For example, Kefali=Kelle/Tzefali=Head

Hello. I updated the hip-hop section of Music_of_Cyprus and added a link from this article. Also I removed the link to the interview with HCH because my putting it here in the first place was not objective. But I think it is important that this article includes some links to pages in cypriot, both modern and older (eg poetry as Kupirijo suggested).Taramenos 04:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

ζ

The article said that doubled consonants are pronounced geminated in Cypriot Greek. What about ζ? Is it pronounced [zz] too? - Gilgamesh 22:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

It depends. ζ is pronounced as zz in certain words such as ζιω/ζ'ω (I/to live) and is pronounced as z in words such as αζούλα (jealousy). WhiteMagick 10:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It is pronounced as [zː] and as [ʒ] after iota semivowel. --Kupirijo (talk) 23:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Phonetic tests showed that /z/ is always geminate (doubled) intervocalically (=between two vowels) and word-initially, e.g. [maxaz:in], [z:arin] etc.

Templates for diacritics

I have created Template:cyp and also Template:κ, Template:χ, Template:σκ and Template:κκ that give in the context of Template:cyp {{cyp|{{κ}}, {{χ}}, {{σκ}}, {{κκ}}}}. --Kupirijo (talk) 23:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it άδρωπος or άχρωπος?

This article gives two different outcomes of the ancient Greek word for human only a few lines apart. Which one is the correct one? Or are they both correct? Haplolology ^Talk/_{Contributions} 23:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

That is a very good question. The answer is complicated. άδρωπος can be considered to be the cypriot word for male human being and the word άχρωπος can be seen as the word for human being. The former derived from the greek word άνδρας while the latter originating from Greek for άνθρωπος where according to Cypriot word formation the v is dropped and θ becomes χ as in the Greek θέλω (I/to want) which is in Cypriot is χιέλω. I intend to spend a great deal of time reworking this article because not only it is poor but it contains innaccuracies. For example the table for personal pronouns is mixed with demonstrative pronouns. User:Whitemagick 10:04 21 April 2008.

Words not used in Standard Greek?

While συντυχχάνω and αρέσκει μου are not used (even if are somewhat straightforward what they mean for someone in Greece), λαλώ and πλάσματα are still used though in different occasions. Λαλώ is used for birds especially roosters, or as a joke for someone that went crazy ('λάλησε') and πλάσματα is used with the wider sense '(living) creatures'. So I think these words should be excluded or at least they should be included as slightly different meaning words.--Κλειδοκράτωρ (talk) 16:34, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Leftist propaganda and leftist fascism by locking the page!!!

You try to introduce this Greek dialect as a different language in an shameful attempt to create an ethnogenesis (new "Cypriot ethnic group") via linguistics. You say "Cypriot Greek—the spoken everyday (low) language.". You refer to the dialect as "LANGUAGE". You also speak many times about diglossia as if there are two different languages! You create hatred in the Greek society of Cyprus, an island that has 34 centuries of Greek civilization! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spartiatis papadopoulos (talk • contribs) 14:40, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

You try to introduce this Greek dialect as a different language in an shameful attempt to create an ethnogenesis (new "Cypriot ethnic group") via linguistics. You say "Cypriot Greek—the spoken everyday (low) language.". You refer to the dialect as "LANGUAGE". You also speak many times about diglossia as if there are two different languages! You create hatred in the Greek society of Cyprus, an island that has 34 centuries of Greek civilization! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.152.9.101 (talk) 17:31, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi there,

Everything that I've added to the intro is sourced. These aren't my ramblings; they're opinions held by professional linguists. 'Language' was used in the broader sense in the text that you've quoted to mean something akin to that thing you speak that differs from that other thing you speak. Linguists don't fuss over what's language and what's dialect, 'cos the split's usually pretty arbitrary. However, it's become obvious that people with no linguistics background may have had some difficulty with the intro, so I've rephrased some bits of it.

Please refrain from making silly accusations. Thanks, Lfdder (talk) 23:12, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

This is 100% a leftist propaganda

This is 100% a leftist propaganda who want to create an ethnogenesis (a new “Cypriot ethnic group”) via linguistics. There is no diglossia among Greek Cypriots because Cypriot Greek is not a language, and according to ethnologue there is no linguistic code like with the Pontic Greek. In Cyprus, the dialect is reportedly more similar to Classical Greek in vocabulary and grammar than that spoken in Greece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Λεωνιδας 333 (talk • contribs) 17:10, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Where does it say that it is a language? "Cypriot Greek (Greek: κυπριακή ελληνική) is the variety of Modern Greek..." We due respect, take your nationalist opinions out of Wikipedia and don't bother posting such comments without the appropriate secondary sources to back them up - in this case a few good sources on the history of language and linguistics. Cypriot Greek contains a whole lot of Arabic, Turkish, Ancient Greek, Italian and English, for the record. Nationalists popping up on Cyprus articles from both sides is becoming extremely annoying. Thankfully Wikipedia's structure allows for referenced material not to be censored based on ideological prejudice.--Tco03displays (talk) 20:15, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

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History Refs

As this sections states at the beginning, there is a blatant lack of references throughout the entire mini-section. I suggest more thorough research be done here, especially since there are a few bold claims.

In the vowels section, Themistocleous 2017 is linked twice. Amondoloka (talk) 21:52, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Code

Currently the language code has only Glottocode and Lingusphere. Shouldn't the language code be el-CY or at least el? --Error (talk) 10:11, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Currently Cypriot Greek does not have an ISO code. This is something that the Cyprus Linguistics Society (CyLing) is looking to change at some point by submitting a formal request for its own ISO code

195.206.251.80 (talk) 15:08, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion about the "ethnicity" parameter of the infobox

I understand the concerns of the IP, however, the name of the parameter is "ethnicity", and the reader might confuse the Greek Cypriots as a distinct ethnicity, when in fact, the term pertains to the ethnic Greek population of Cyprus. Personally, i wouldn't have a problem with the IP's version if the name of the parameter was something general like "population". Maybe the Template:Infobox language gives such an option, that i am unaware of. On the other hand, if such an option doesn't exist, maybe an admin can introduce it as a new parameter in the template. Alternatively, i also wouldn't have a problem if the Greek Cypriots was changed to Greek Cypriots; with two wikilinks. By the way, i was the one who made the request for page protection, and hadn't participated in the edit-war until yesterday; this has been going on since 7 March 2022, and four editors in total have reverted the contributions of the IP. Any other suggestion is welcome. Demetrios1993 (talk) 17:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Ethnicity in Cyprus is a complex topic and attitudes towards ethnic identity vary widely, see e.g. this entirely unscientific vox pop or this study. Here's an excerpt (p. 236):

As we argued at the start of this chapter, it is possible to speak about several layers

of social identity among both Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots, e.g. supranational,

national, religious and ethnic layers (see Fig.15.1). Therefore, untangling this complex

web of identities is a challenging task. [...] In the same research, the Moreno question was asked in both communities. In the

Greek Cypriot community, the results were as follows: Only Greek and not Cypriot

(0.8 %), Greek and a bit Cypriot (5.2 %) to the same extend Greek and Cypriot

(57.9 %), Cypriot and a bit Greek (16.2 %) and Only Cypriot and not Greek (19.9 %).

The purpose of this (or any) infobox is to summarise the key points of the article; it is most certainly not to mislead the reader by embellishing the facts. If we believe that the label generates confusion, then ethnicity should be omitted. 31.153.42.153 (talk) 12:38, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Neither of these sources that you shared discuss actual ethnicity, but self-appellations that relate to nationality, regionalism, the Cyprus problem, and personal attitudes towards the so-called "motherlands" of GCs (Greece) and TCs (Turkey); at least, for the vast majority. There is no dispute that "Κύπριοι", "Ελληνοκύπριοι", and "Έλληνες της Κύπρου", are all self-appellations of the ethnic Greeks from Cyprus. The article Greeks discusses the Greek ethnicity as a whole, and thus also pertains to Greek Cypriots. Even if Psaltis & Cakal (2016) were describing actual distinct ethnicities, which they don't, the figures on Table 15.1 that they present – slightly different from those you shared – would still justify the use of "Greek Cypriots" (using both links) that i suggested. But again, i also don't have a problem with "Greek Cypriots" (one link), if the name of the parameter could be changed to something more general, like "population". I also wouldn't have a problem if the "ethnicity" parameter was to be omitted altogether, as it is for example in the articles Cretan Greek and Pontic Greek. Nevertheless, i would prefer the creation of a "population" parameter, by making a request on the talk page of Template:Infobox language; it would be useful for articles that discuss linguistic varieties of ethnic subgroups in general, and would take care of any confusion that might arise from an "ethnicity" parameter. The purpose of this, or any infobox, is indeed to summarize the key points of the article per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, but please also try to understand the aforementioned concerns. Demetrios1993 (talk) 20:38, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

The linked extract explains that Greek Cypriot identity is both variable and multivariate. There is an ethnic group in Cyprus which is undoubtedly Greek in more than one respect and which variously identifies as Greek, Greek Cypriot (where "Cypriot" is more than a mere geographical designation) and Cypriot. Contemporary sociological understanding of ethnicity is conflicted, which makes talking about "actual ethnicity" difficult; but there is some consensus that self-identification cannot be divorced from ethnicity insofar as ethnicity is a social construct, or we would perhaps not be able to discuss, for example, Norwegians as distinct from Swedes, or Ukrainians as a distinct ethnic group from Russians. The generally agreed-upon term to refer to these peoples is "Greek Cypriots", circumventing the sort of fruitless debate as to the exact nature of their Greekness that we're seeing here and which is best reserved for the Greek Cypriot article.

the figures on Table 15.1 that they present – slightly different from those you shared [...]

I quoted the paragraph above the table.

In any case, I do share your concerns and I agree that a new parameter would make sense. I would also be OK with omitting the ethnicity from the infobox. 62.228.118.133 (talk)

Yes, i also read the paragraph above Table 15.1, but for some reason the figures are different. Anyway, i will remove the "ethnicity" parameter since we both agree, and if in the future a more general option is introduced, like a "population" parameter, we can use it and include the Greek Cypriots article; after all, it also presents the population as an ethnic Greek subgroup. Demetrios1993 (talk) 21:54, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for helping to resolve this disagreement. 62.228.118.133 (talk) 22:59, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Edit war concerning whether "more loanwords are in everyday use than in Standard Modern Greek"

In the vocabulary section, recent edits by @Itisme3248 seem to be removing the following first sentence:

• More loanwords are in everyday use than in Standard Modern Greek. These come from Old French, Italian, Occitan, Turkish and, increasingly, from English. There are also Arabic expressions (via Turkish) like μάσ̌σ̌αλλα [ˈmaʃːalːa] "mashallah" and ίσ̌σ̌αλλα [ˈiʃːalːa] "inshallah".

I believe that this removal is unwarranted, therefore I have reverted this removal with the following comment:

• Sociolinguistics 3 does not seem to be "overexaggerating loan words for political reasons", and the section talking about loan words is in turn extensively referencing other prominent publications to support this. It seems that the editor specifically removed/vandalized a well-cited section in order to diminish the impact of loan words for their own political or "purity" reasons

A counter-reversion by by @Itisme3248 is as follows:

• If there are so many more loanwords then also post the statistics from that "source" of the Demotic vs Cypriot Greek loan words. A lot of the so called extra loan words are literally used in Demotiki but in a different form. For example the Cypriot and Demotic Greek word for chair are both Latin Loan words that also got loaned from ancient Greek

Please find below a small list of the extensive documentation of loan words in Cypriot Greek:

1. Papapavlou, Andreas N. "English loanwords in the Greek Cypriot dialect: Linguistic and sociocultural interpretations." The Cyprus Review 1.1 (1989): 93.
2. Davy, Jim, Yannis E. Ioannou, and Anna Panayotou. "French and English loans in Cypriot diglossia." MOM Éditions 25.1 (1996): 127-136.
3. Davy, Jim, and Anna Panayotou. "French loans in Cypriot Greek." MOM Éditions 31.1 (2000): 113-125.
4. Vassiliou, Erma. "French Loan Words in Cypriot Revisited: A New Etymological Approach." Modern Greek Studies (Australia and New Zealand) 15 (2011).
5. Pavlou, Pavlos Y. "The Semantic Adaptation of Turkish Loanwords in Cypriot-Greek." (1993).
6. Andreas, N. Papapavlou. "Language Contact, Lexical Borrowing in the Greek Cypriot Dialect."
7. Χατζηιωάννου, Κυριάκος. Περι των εν τη μεσαιωνικη και νεωτερα κυπριακη ξενων γλωσσικων στοιχειων. Diss. Εθνικό και Καποδιστριακό Πανεπιστήμιο Αθηνών (ΕΚΠΑ). Σχολή Φιλοσοφική, 1935.
8. Ioannidou, Elena. "On language and ethnic identity among Greek Cypriot students." Cyprus Review 16.1 (2004): 29-52.
9. Papapavlou, Andreas N. "The Influence of English and its Dominance in Cyprus: Reality or unfounded fears?." Journal of Mediterranean Studies 7.2 (1997): 218-249.
10. Karatsareas, Petros, and Anna Charalambidou. "Exploring linguistic hybridity and lexical creativity in the UK’s Greek Cypriot diaspora: The Grenglish project." Cahiers du Centre d’Etudes Chypriotes 50 (2020): 431-456.

Kindly let me know if we can edit the sentence in question to something more acceptable or closer to the truth rather than removing it altogether

195.206.251.80 (talk) 15:19, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

You must provide specific statistical evidence regarding the frequency of loanwords in Cypriot Greek compared to Demotic Greek before I can accept your claim on the Wikipedia page. Merely citing sources without reading them is not sufficient. I require actual data that demonstrates the percentage difference in the usage of loanwords between the two languages. The term "more loan words" can encompass various degrees, such as 5% more, 20% more, or 30% more.

If you wish to support your argument, please locate and present the statistics from the sources you mentioned. If those sources do not provide statistical data, it is reasonable to conclude that they may be making unsupported claims based on a limited number of words. I could easily do the same in Standard Greek by selecting 50 loanwords used daily and asserting that it has more loanwords than other languages. Itisme3248 (talk) 15:44, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The presence of different loanwords in Cypriot Greek compared to Demotic Greek does not necessarily indicate a significant increase in the overall number of loanwords. Many of the so-called loanwords may also be used ironically. Similar to how people incorporate English words into certain phrases in an ironic manner. Like how mainland Greeks use the word "σιχτίρ". Itisme3248 (talk) 15:46, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Please see below the claims made by Ammon in Sociolinguistics 3:

“Although the differences in syntax, morphology and phonology are not enormous, the Cypriot dialect and Standard Greek are not particularly readily intelligible (Papapavlou 1994), probably mostly because the lexicon of Cypriot has significantly more lexical items of non-Greek origin (Chatzioyannou 1936).”

When Ammon makes this claim, he in turn cites the 1936 doctoral thesis of Hadjioannou, which is considered the cornerstone of all research into Cypriot Greek loan words. This thesis itself is not digitized, but I have visited the local library and I have found a copy and I am able to confirm that Hadjioannou makes a very similar claim to what is found in Sociolinguistics 3.

After this thesis, Hadjioannou further published multiple etymological dictionaries of Cypriot Greek, some of which have been digitized, either as PDFs accurately representing the dictionaries from cover to cover, or via the greek-language.gr project, which also cites this 1936 thesis:

https://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/medieval_greek/bibliographies/loanword_terminology/bibliography.html?start=277&show=1

I believe that the principles of Wikipedia such as WP:NOR suggest that I do not have to personally put in any more work to further prove this point, and that as it stands, the removed sentence from the original article should at least remain, if not appended with more citations rather than just Ammon

However, in order to give you the benefit of the doubt, consider the following source:

https://sinaahmadi.github.io/posts/foreign-loanwords-in-modern-greek.html

The author of the above makes the claim that there are 4037 foreign loan words in standard modern Greek

Consider the work of Konstantinos Giangoullis, from 2003: “Οι λατινικές και λατινογενείς λέξεις της κυπριακής διαλέκτου [Latin and Latinate words of the Cypriot Greek dialect]” published in Nicosia. This work catalogs 4300 loan words of latin origin alone. It doesn’t even count words from other non-latin languages such as Turkish. It therefore seems to me that the appraisal being made in the now-removed, contested sentence is valid.

I am still willing to accept that both me and Ammon and Yiangoullis and Hadjioannou are wrong about how there are more loan words in Cypriot Greek than standard modern Greek. But it is now up to you to prove otherwise, and if you can, then we can just change the contested sentence to reflect how much consensus there is on the number of loan words in Standard Greek vs Cypriot Greek

One last point: it is generally accepted across all linguistics that a more local variety/a dialect/a vernacular/the “low variety” is generally more rich in loan words. It’s not a controversial statement to say that Pontic Greek has more loan words than Standard Modern Greek, and in turn, Standard Modern Greek has more loan words than Katharevousa. You can find this exact point being made below:

https://users.ox.ac.uk/~wolf0044/index_files/PietroBortone.pdf 195.206.250.79 (talk) 15:01, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm referring specifically to Demotic Greek, not Standard Greek. How prevalent were foreign loan words in everyday conversation? Can you provide a comparison between the number of words in Demotic Greek and Cypriot Greek? It's important to note that the count of 4037 loan words pertains to Standard Greek, not Demotic Greek. One could argue that there exists a version of Cypriot Standard Greek today, similar to how Katharevousa influenced and "purified" Demotic Greek to some extent. To ensure fair comparisons, it would be necessary to compare Cypriot Greek with Demotic Greek and not modern Standard Greek vs Cypriot Greek.

It's important to exercise caution because there is a common misconception among individuals who read the Wikipedia page that Cypriot Greek is a form of creole language. Unfortunately, this misconception is exploited by propagandists who make unfounded claims about the quality of Cypriot Greek. These individuals often advocate for the replacement of Cypriot Greek with Standard Greek because they perceive it as the only true form of the Greek language. This further highlights the significance of understanding the context of loan word usage in Demotic Greek versus Cypriot Greek, instead of solely comparing it to modern Standard Greek.

It is crucial for people to recognize that all regional Greek dialects and languages, including Cypriot Greek, have incorporated loan words throughout history. Additionally, Demotic Greek underwent a process of purification due to the influence of Katharevousa, which ultimately contributed to the formation of Modern Standard Greek. Understanding this historical context is essential in order to appreciate the linguistic richness and evolution of the Greek language, and to avoid dismissing regional dialects as inferior or "impure" versions of Greek.

In addition, it is important for the page to highlight the fact that Cypriot Greek preserves more archaic grammar, syntax, nouns and pronunciation compared to Demotic and Standard Greek. This linguistic characteristic adds to the uniqueness and cultural value of Cypriot Greek, emphasizing its connection to the historical development of the Greek language. By acknowledging and discussing these distinct features, the page can provide a more comprehensive understanding of Cypriot Greek and its significance within the broader Greek language family.

Loan words primarily affect the vocabulary of a language and do not inherently change the syntax, grammar, or nouns. Loan words are typically incorporated into a language to fill lexical gaps or to express concepts from other cultures. While loan words themselves may not directly impact syntax, grammar, or nouns, they can still reflect cultural influences and contribute to the overall evolution and enrichment of a language. Itisme3248 (talk) 15:23, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I am going to request a WP:30 46.199.57.143 (talk) 16:37, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, kindly refer to the section named “Dimotiki and "Standard Modern Greek"” in Demotic Greek 46.199.57.143 (talk) 16:45, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

3O Response: I agree with the IP here. The book that was originally cited directly states that Cypriot Greek has a lot of loanwords—the IP is correct in that per the the original research policy, digging deeper is unnecessary. The claim is published in a book by a reputable author and publisher, so there's no reason it cannot be used. Itisme3248, you personally being unconvinced by the methodology with which this claim may have been determined is insufficient to challenge the information, unless you can provide your own source that contradicts or challenges the claim in that book. Also, Itisme3247, I am confused by your claim that—if I understand it correctly—words loaned from other languages and then used ironically don't count as loanwords. Why would that be the case? Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 02:11, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

It is unclear if they specifically compare and provide statistical data on loan words for Cypriot vs Demotic Greek. Therefore, it is essential to exercise caution when considering the accuracy and relevance of these sources. The claims made appear to be vague and lacking in specific details or evidence.

It is important to note that when discussing loan words in Cypriot Greek, the comparison should be made with Demotic Greek rather than Standard Greek. Standard Greek is considered a higher variety of the language like you guys said, akin to Katharevousa, whereas Demotic and Cypriot are regarded as lower varieties. Failing to make this distinction can be misleading, as the influence and usage of loan words may differ significantly between these varieties. Therefore, to obtain a comprehensive understanding, it is necessary to compare loan words between Cypriot Greek and Demotic Greek, taking into account their respective linguistic contexts and usage patterns.

I understand your perspective, but it's important to approach the issue with critical thinking.

1. The fact that a book directly states that Cypriot Greek has a lot of loanwords does not guarantee its accuracy. It is necessary to examine the methodology, data sources, and the consensus within the field of linguistics on the topic. Relying solely on one source, even if it is from a reputable author and publisher, may not provide a comprehensive understanding of the subject.
2. The original research policy does not imply that digging deeper is unnecessary. On the contrary, thorough research involves consulting multiple sources and critically evaluating the evidence available. This approach helps establish a more robust understanding and identify potential biases or limitations in individual sources.
3. Regarding loanwords used ironically, the distinction arises from their usage and integration into the language. Loanwords that are primarily used ironically or humorously do not typically contribute significantly to the overall vocabulary or lexicon of a language. Instead, loanwords that have become part of everyday speech and are commonly used reflect the true influence of foreign languages on a linguistic system.

It is important to note that many of the so-called loan words mentioned for Cypriot Greek on the page are not commonly used in daily conversations in Cyprus. These words are obscure and require significant effort to discover, often being employed by a minority of individuals, including non-Greek Cypriots such as Turk Cypriots. For example comparing this situation to Indian immigrants in the UK using Indian loan words in English would be misleading, as it does not indicate a substantial presence of Indian loan words in the actual English language of the native English speakers. Therefore, it is crucial to distinguish between loan words that are widely incorporated into a language's vocabulary and those that have limited usage and impact.

Here are some examples of loan words in Standard Modern Greek in every day speech:

1. Ρεσεψιόν (resepsión) - Reception (from French)
2. Σούπερμαρκετ (súpermarket) - Supermarket (from English)
3. Μπαρ (bar) - Bar (from English)
4. Σέρφινγκ (surfing) - Surfing (from English)
5. Ταξί (taxi) - Taxi (from French)
6. Σέξι (sexy) - Sexy (from English)
7. Κέικ (cake) - Cake (from English)
8. Πάρκο (párko) - Park (from English)
9. Μάρκετινγκ (marketing) - Marketing (from English)
10. Κέτσαπ (kétsap) - Ketchup (from English)
11. Πιτσαρία (pitsaría) - Pizzeria (from Italian)
12. Χόμπι (hómbi) - Hobby (from English)
13. Γκαράζ (garáž) - Garage (from French)
14. Χάμπουργκερ (hámburger) - Hamburger (from German)
15. Σέζον (sezón) - Season (from French)
16. Παρκάρω (parkáro) - To park (from French)

....................... Itisme3248 (talk) 18:49, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

@Itisme3248:

It is unclear if they specifically compare and provide statistical data on loan words for Cypriot vs Demotic Greek. Again, it doesn't matter if you are personally unconvinced by the book's methodology. Wikipedia writes what is verifiable, not true.

It is necessary to examine the methodology, data sources, and the consensus within the field of linguistics on the topic. Relying solely on one source, even if it is from a reputable author and publisher, may not provide a comprehensive understanding of the subject. I agree. However, you haven't provided sources that make a claim that challenges or contradicts the one we have. Just because only one source says something isn't a good enough reason to remove it, unless you can prove that most sources say otherwise.

The original research policy does not imply that digging deeper is unnecessary. On the contrary, thorough research involves consulting multiple sources and critically evaluating the evidence available. This approach helps establish a more robust understanding and identify potential biases or limitations in individual sources. What the IP was talking about was whether they had to cite what the book cites for that information, rather than simply citing the book. That is what the IP did not have to do.

Regarding loanwords used ironically, the distinction arises from their usage and integration into the language. Loanwords that are primarily used ironically or humorously do not typically contribute significantly to the overall vocabulary or lexicon of a language. Instead, loanwords that have become part of everyday speech and are commonly used reflect the true influence of foreign languages on a linguistic system. But the 2 examples you provided earlier of these ironically used loanwords were "shit" and "fuck". These are both very highly used words with a massive influence on the English lexicon (at least in American English – I'm not sure if that's true anywhere else).

(TL;DR) You are refuting a claim made in a reliable source that we have no reason to believe is unreliable besides you simply not thinking it provided enough proof. If you can give sources that contradict that book, then we can talk about whether the sentence has consensus among linguists.

Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 19:12, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

These same words are also in use in Cypriot Greek. Since both of us are presumably speakers of Cypriot Greek, I’m sure you’ll understand that giving examples of loan words used in Greece and also in Cyprus doesn’t prove much.

That is, there is an overlap of loan words between Cypriot Greek and Greece Greek. Therefore in order to determine which one has more loan words, we need to look at how many loan words exist in Greece but are NOT used in Cyprus, and compare this amount with the number of loan words used in Cyprus that don’t exist in Cyprus.

Of course there won’t be a standard or widely accepted number of loan words in each of these two languages, because there will be disagreements on whether some words in the 1936 thesis are still used, or if you have ever seen or heard these words, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t exist or that they can be discounted

46.199.60.182 (talk) 09:32, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Those loan words only arrived in Cypriot Greek due to Standard Greek influence, which means that Standard Greek made Cypriot Greek use more loan words, lol

Moreover, the words mentioned in the 1936 thesis were not widely utilized by the Cypriot population at that time or this time. If only a negligible percentage of the population, let's say 99%, is unaware of or doesn't use those words, then they cannot be considered significant in the overall language context.

Considering the difficulty in definitively determining which language possesses a greater number of loanwords because of the lack of proper modern studies that compare actual statistics, it might be prudent to avoid making arbitrary claims on the Wikipedia page. Itisme3248 (talk) 11:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Please refer to TL;DR above:

You are refuting a claim made in a reliable source that we have no reason to believe is unreliable besides you simply not thinking it provided enough proof. If you can give sources that contradict that book, then we can talk about whether the sentence has consensus among linguists.

It is not widely accepted that "all loan words only arrived in Cypriot Greek due to Standard Greek influence", consequently it is not widely accepted that "Standard Greek made Cypriot Greek use more loan words" either.

Do you have a source which would support what you're saying?

62.228.22.208 (talk) 18:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

The classification paragraph is very one sided and misleading.

I am not very familiar with these authors that appear as sources but it is quite obvious that Cypriot Greek, even what is considered "heavy Cypriot" is quite highly intelligible with Standard Modern Greek. I believe there must be a more diverse number of sources to make an accurate assessment in that regard. 2A02:586:C432:4177:F095:CA45:5206:41C4 (talk) 19:55, 28 March 2024 (UTC)