Talk:Crotalus (instrument)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 04:47, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that joyful bells are replaced by a sad wooden rattle for three days a year? Source: Reviving the Tradition of the Crotalus: Liturgical Instrument of the Easter Triduum
  • ALT1: ... that Sephardi Jews could pass off their ceremonial gragers as Catholic matracas? Source: When the Spanish Inquisition expanded to the New World
  • ALT2: ... that the crotalus replaces altar bells during the Paschal Triduum? Source: Catholic Encyclopedia
  • ALT3: ... that bells are replaced by a wooden clapper for three days a year?
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Flag of Montserrat

Created by Pbritti (talk). Self-nominated at 18:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting:
• Other problems:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Looks good. I do though wonder...is a rattle a sad sound? I don't find it inherently carries a specific implication of sadness. The source doesn't think it's specifically sad ("incongruous jarring sound"). From my own research, Eamon Duffy describes it as "an astonishing clapper device like a football rattle", without suggesting it has a sad sound. I would suggest rephrasing that one word and corroborating it inside the article, and then I'd be happy to pass. Blythwood (talk) 21:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Blythwood: Would you be more interested in the first alt? If not, I'll get right to fixing that first one. Thanks for the tips! ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:19, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Pbritti, thanks for the message! I'm fine with the general thrust of your first-choice hook, just that one word which I think could be rephrased or given an extra citation. Up to you if you want to substitute. Blythwood (talk) 22:36, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Blythwood: I would prefer to substitute. The first was a vain attempt at humor. That falling flat, the relation to Jewish history is a little more interesting to me. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:40, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Pbritti, OK, if you prefer. Happy to pass ALT1. I do slightly prefer the original first-choice hook if you wanted to rephrase it, since it feels more general. Blythwood (talk) 23:07, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Blythwood: hmmm, if that is so,

• ... that some bells are replaced by a wooden clapper for three days a year?
• The source being the same and Catholic Dictionary from Attwater. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:25, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

That's great too! I've put that in as ALT3 and happy to pass on ALT3 also. Blythwood (talk) 09:04, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

category and definitioon

The deviceses in question are clearly clappers and rathchets. One sorce sats "clapper (crotalus)". Maybe some other source says "rattle", but "rattle" is also a synonym of ratchet. Neither of tghem is shaken idiophone, i.e., Rattle (percussion instrument). Therefore the category is inapproopriate. Loew Galitz (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Also "krotalon" is not a rattle either: it is a clapper (musical instrument). So the source that translater crotalus as rattle is sloppy in terms of mysical instrments.Loew Galitz (talk) 16:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Loew Galitz: multiple sources state that the term evolved from the word krotalon, where if meant rattle. Besides the source you've repeatedly removed (without citing anything else), here is another article discussion the instrument. Another source, the The Venomous Reptiles of the Western Hemisphere is cited on the Crotalus snake genus article. Here, too, "krotalon" means "rattle" (which makes sense, as the genus refers to rattlesnake species). Unless you can muster a source that says this definition is errant, I have two reliable and one semi-reliable sources that contend for the etymology I provided. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Loew Galitz: Here is another academic reference of "rattle" being an accepted definition of krotalon. It would seem that, given typical American English usage, "rattle" is a synonym. I wrote this article in American English, and discounting a source because it uses a well-documented etymology is inappropriate without issue-specific sources. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:25, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Whatever these sources say, I cited you an Encyclopedia Britannica article on "krotalon". And it is clearly not a rattle. The sources you mention are not of expertise on ancient Greek musical instruments. Here is a ref from Greek-English Lexicon: [1], which translates it as "clapper". Same with wikt:crotalum . There is nothing unusual that uneducated translation proliferate. However we in Wikipedia have to struggle for preciseness. You cannot use sources about snakes to find meanings of Greek words. You have to use direct sources. Loew Galitz (talk) 23:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Loew Galitz: You cited material that makes no reference to the liturgical crotalus, describing different items. I merely demonstrated that the term evolved and diverged to also refer to rattles, however imperfect that may be. You are using WP:SYNTH to discount multiple sources that explicitly describe the etymology of the topic of this article using sources that make no reference to it. When I did the same to show you that those sources you removed were not "ignorant", you said they were irrelevant. You can cite as many sources as you like about Greek cymbals, but the fact is clear that the word "rattle" appears to be an appropriate (and sourced!) translation of the word krotalon. ~ 23:53, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Loew Galitz: Another thing: our job at Wikipedia is to match a high standard of reliable sourcing. However, it is not our job to discount reliable sources simply because we have a hunch they're wrong. Unless there is sincere reason to believe something is false—which there is not in this case, as a result of the various other translations of the term into "rattle"—we are to follow the reliable sourcing. ~ 23:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

The sources you cite are not reliable about the translation of the word because they lack appropriate expertise. And mine is not a "hunch": I cited you three extremely appropriate sources: EB and classical dictionaries. And they disagree your source about rattlesnake in terms of the meaning of the Greek word. In case of contradictions in sources we use the sources which are closest to the subject in question, which is the meaning of the Greek word. Loew Galitz (talk) 00:07, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

@Loew Galitz: Again, these are sources regarding Ancient Greek practice. I trust a liturgical historian would know more about the etymology of a niche Christian liturgical word than a dictionary that does not cover the subject at all. Once again, you are discounting reliable sources not because they disagree, but because they simply don't cover it. Please not insert unsourced information. That's the last I have to say on this time-sink. Thank you for improving the wiki as you know how, even if I disagree with you here. ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:15, 1 July 2022 (UTC)