Talk:Confederate States of America/Archive 9
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GIF timeline in three columns
| YYYYxxMMxxDD | |||
| 1860-11-xx | - | 34(?) States at time of Lincoln's election | - |
| 1860-12-20 | SC secedes. | SC declares secession. | - |
| 1861-01-09 | MS secedes. | MS declares secession. - | |
| 1861-01-10 | FL secedes. | FL declares secession. | - |
| 1861-01-11 | AL secedes. | AL declares secession. | - |
| 1861-01-19 | GA secedes. | GA declares secession. | - |
| 1861-01-26 | LA secedes. | LA declares secession. | - |
| 1861-01-29 | KS admitted to US. | - | - |
| 1861-02-01 | TX secedes. | TX declares secession. | - |
| 1861-02-08 | CS formed from all of the above except Texas. Capital located at Montgomery. |
CSA formed from all of the above except Texas. Capital located at Montgomery, AL. |
CS “original 7”: SC, MS, FL, AL, GA, TX; LA in CS with U.S. Representatives 37th Cong Capital at Montgomery AL |
| 1861-03-02 | TX admitted to CS. | Texas admitted to CSA. | TX seated in CS Congress at referendum for ratification. |
| 1861-03-04 | - | - | 37th Congress opens - no map change - |
| 1861-03-28 | Mesilla government of Arizona Territory secedes. (Mesilla voted on March 16, Tucson on March 28, but our article on AZT labels the latter as the ordinance of secession) |
Mesilla government of AZT votes to secede. | - |
| 1861-04-12 | American Civil War begins. | American Civil War begins, at Fort Sumter SC. | - |
| 1861-04-17 | VA secedes. | VA declares secession. | VA secession resolution. Referendum ratifies May 7. |
| 1861-05-06 | AR secedes. | AR declares secession. | |
| 1861-05-07 | TN secedes, VA admitted to CS. | TN declares secession, VA admitted to CSA | TN declares secession. VA: CSA with U.S. Representatives |
| 1861-05-17 | - | - | TN admitted to CSA TN: CSA with U.S. Representatives |
| 1861-05-18 | AR admitted to CS. | AR admitted to CSA. | - |
| 1861-05-20 | NC secedes. | NC declares secession. | - |
| 1861-05-21 | NC admitted to CS. | NC admitted to CSA. | - |
| 1861-05-29 | Capital moved to Richmond. | CSA capital moved to Richmond, VA. | - |
| 1861-07-02 | TN admitted to CS. | TN admitted to CSA. | TN referendum ratifies legislature’s ordinance |
| 1861-07-12 | - | - | Five Civilized Nations of Indian Terr. admitted to CSA |
| 1861-08-01 | AZT admitted to CS following First Battle of Mesilla. | AZT admitted to CSA following First Battle of Mesilla. | - |
| 1861-08-20 | Wheeling government secedes from Virginia | - | WV: USA wth CS Representatives U.S. border along WV s. boundary |
| 1861-10-31 | Neosho government of MO secedes. | Neosho government of MO declares secession. | - |
| 1861-11-20 | Bowling Green government of KY secedes. | Bowling Green govt. of KY declares secession. | - |
| 1861-11-28 | MO admitted to CS, but remains firmly in Union hands. | - | MO: CSA and U.S. Representatives |
| 1861-12-10 | KY admitted to CS, but remains firmly in Union hands. | - | KY: CSA and U.S. Representatives |
| 1862-02-14 | AZT organized. | AZT organized by CSA. | - |
| 1863-03-04 | - | - | (a) 38th U.S. Congress opens (b) CSA and U.S. Representatives WV, KY, MO, AZT, [Indian Terr.*] (c) CSA only: VA, LA, TN |
| 1863-06-20 | Wheeling government admitted to US as WV | WV admitted as state to US. | WV: USA with C.S. Representatives [same tint as KY, MO w/ U.S. border along WV/VA] |
| 1864-10-31 | NV admitted to US. | ||
| 1865-04-09 | Army of Northern Virginia surrenders, effectively ending the war. | Surrender of Army of Northern Va, CSA ends government-sanctioned contest of U.S. control over WV, KY, MO, Indian Terr. and AZT. |
(a) Union: WV, KY, MO, AZT, Indian Terr. (b) “Vacant” in Congress” VA, NC, SC, GA, FL, MS, AR, LA, TX, and LA and TN. [Local governments set up under “Presidential Reconstruction”] |
| 1866-05-05 | NV expanded. | - | - |
| 1865-06-19 | - | - | Juneteenth (any change to map?) |
| 1866-07-24 | TN readmitted to union. | TN readmitted to Congress. | - |
| 1867-01-18 | NV expanded. | - | - |
| 1867-03-01 | NB admitted to US. | - | - |
| 1867-07-19 | Reconstruction Act passed, creating military districts. | the 10 states not yet readmitted to Congress organized into 5 military districts (could be 5 diff shades of roughly the same color here) |
(a) Congressional Reconstruction MiDi-1:VA, MiDi-2:NC-SC, MiDi-3:GA-FL-AL, MiDi-4:AR-MS, MiDi-5:TX n. to n.LA. (b)still "vacant" in Congress: LA |
| 1868-06-22 | Arkansas readmitted to union. | Arkansas readmitted to Congress. | - |
| 1868-06-25 | Florida readmitted to union. | Florida readmitted to Congress. | - |
| 1868-07-04 | North Carolina readmitted to union. | North Carolina readmitted to Congress. | - |
| 1868-07-09 | Louisiana and South Carolina readmitted to union. | LA and SC readmitted to Congress. | - |
| 1868-07-13 | Alabama readmitted to union. | AL readmitted to Congress. | - |
| 1870-01-26 | Virginia readmitted to union. | VA readmitted to Congress. | - |
| 1870-02-23 | Mississippi readmitted to union. | MS readmitted to Congress. | - |
| 1870-03-30 | Texas readmitted to union. | TX readmitted to Congress. | - |
| 1870-07-15 | Georgia readmitted to union. | GA readmitted to Congress. | - |
| 1870-12-22 | 41st United States Congress seats last of state delegations once declared “vacant”. |
TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 18:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- For 8/20/1861: I would change that to "Restored Government of Virginia passes 'An Ordinance to Provide for the Formation of a New State Out of a Portion of the Territory of This State', to be approved by public referendum Oct. 24, 1861." Or however you wish to word it. This was not actually the creation of the state, just an ordinance to approve the creation of the state. Dubyavee (talk) 03:16, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
GIF design in three columns
- Comments:
- Was Tennessee admitted to the CS in May or July? This article says May.
- Our article says Indian Territory was never formally ceded, but they received representation in the Confederate Congress. Thus, barring additional sources, I consider it somewhat of an external territory, like Puerto Rico is to the US, as opposed to an internal territory like Arizona was.
- Maybe I can find some way of illustrating which states were expelled from Congress at which times... hm. I'll think about that.
- The article has a map that says a "New Mexico Territory", above Arizona Territory, was claimed by the CS; I have never seen a source for this, does anyone know if this is accurate, or if it's only including this because of the Union's New Mexico Territory?
- "MiDi-5:TX n. to n.LA." How is this different from just saying "TX and LA"?
- Oh, wait, I see - southern Louisiana was captured early and maintained representation. Oy. I love how this gets more and more complex.
- How to display the military districts? I don't want to give them different colors from each other, as they had the same status, and it adds more colors to an already colorful map. I could use the thicker international border to set them apart. In fact, that would give a useful counterbalance - the seceding states had the international border when they left, and now the military districts to reconstruct them have the same. State -> Independent -> CSA -> Military -> State. Circle of life. --Golbez (talk) 19:35, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- (1) Tennessee legislature passes a ‘secession resolution/ordinance’ May 6 (Martis) I do not have the other source at hand. I’ll pursue it, one of us should nail it down.
- (2) TN, TX , VA used a political theory of the “Jacksonian Era of Democracy” requiring 5-step: legislature-elections-convention-referendum-secession. Others used 4-step: legislature-elections-convention-secession, others 2-step: legislature-secession. They all can fit into a rigorous category consistently applied in every case: date of Secession Ordinance.
- (3) The Confederate Congress approved admitting Tennessee on May 17, subject to conditions of the referendum. This is the date Admitted to CSA. Delegates were seated in August. In VA case, delegates were seated the day admitted, before referendum or voter elections. To the CSA, the CS legislature determined representation, not any one of the various political theories. Thus secessionist governor appointed Representatives would to for MO, although some were elected out of Army camps.
- (4) TN referendum on June 8 approved secession. Like VA referendum after CSA admission, the event should be noted. But for CSA.GIF, whatever the political theory, the significance rests on whether battalions were raised, fought and campaigned. If tens of thousands are persuaded to arms, the ordinance is significant, whether 2-step or 5-; if no one shows up, the ordinance is “not worth the paper it is written on”.
- (5) MiDi-5. My bad, it should read a district in TX north to the LA northern border latitude. TX has its own history. The secession won there because the USA did not protect from Plains Indians raids. Thus CSA treaties with the Five Civilized Nations. But they could not subdue the Plains Indians when CSA could not meet treaty obligations. Smuggled bales of cotton landed on the Gulf coast for Indian Territory have value on world exchanges, but they are not crates of rifled Enfields. After the Civil War, Generals Sherman and Sheridan are heroes in TX for their 1870s Indian War exploits against Plains Indians (Fehrenbach, “Texas”). Comanches could go 400 miles into Mexico for cattle raids. They also went to Texas. railroads = cattle = Texas = immigrant cities = industrial giant. Add oil. But I digress. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:43, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
6-color palette for Civil War GIF
The Civil War and the CSA in it can be comprehended in a state GIF with an 8-category legend in six colors.
1. The #1 color:
- United States
2. The #2 color: Secession Ordinance
- note any referendum whether before or after "Admitted to Confederacy"
- 13 states and two territories
3. The #3 color: Admitted to Confederacy
- dates by CS Congress (Martis) for 13 states, other for two territories
- - except those in #4 color. seven until March 4, 1863, then four/one.
4. The #4 color: CSA with U.S. Representatives, and
- USA with C.S. Representatives (WV)
- from each "Admitted to Confederacy" until 38th Congress,
- to Mar 4, 1863: VA, KY, MO, LA, TN, AZT, Indian Terr.
- after Mar 4, 1863: WV, KY, MO, AZT, Indian Terr.
- - Indian Territory treated for summary purposes like AZT
- - national border along southern border of WV
5. The #1 color: uncontested Union. end of organized resistance directed
- by elected CSA officials and funded by CS Congressional appropriations
- after Apr 9, 1865: WV, KY, MO, AZT, Indian Territory
6. The #5 color: Presidential Reconstruction
- after Apr 9, 1865: TN, LA, VA, NC, SC, GA, FL, AL, MS, AR, TX
- - in Congress, "Vacant"
7. The #6 color: Radical Reconstruction
- After March 2, 1867: Military Districts (MiDi) with surrounding national borders
- date from first of four Reconstruction Acts which established Military Districts
- MiDi-1:VA, MiDi-2:NC-SC, MiDi-3:GA-FL-AL,
- MiDi-4:AR-MS, MiDi-5:TX n. to n.LA border.
8. The #1 color: Readmitted to Congress
- United States
TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:04, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
The CSA treaty with two tribes provided for applying for statehood. The article features an infobox with independent state republic flags. Unlike the ratification process found in the U.S. Constitution, each state presented itself to the C.S. Congress on its own terms to apply for Confederacy. The CSA adhered to principles of "state sovereignty", a sovereignty just like the Native-American nations. There should not be a distinctive color to distinguish their autonomy as there was no distinction in the eyes of CSA. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Per the Golbez and JimWae discussion concerning the International boundary.
- The International boundary might be replaced with another line font, say, solid (thinner than international) line on the Confederate side, dotted line on the Union side -_-__-__-__-__-__-__-__-__-_ , or something.The universal descriptor could be
- "Boundary claimed by the Confederate States of America, [month] 1861 - April 1865."
- the border changing with each new Admitted to Confederacy. That would put WV on the south of the line, but WV would stay #4 color (CSA-with-U.S. Representatives, same color as USA-with-C.S. Representatives) and the geopolitical change would show visually because #3 color would obtain to VA (CSA, no U.S. representatives). TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 15:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Technical restrictions prevent me from being fancy with dotted lines, and also they would either have to be so thick as to render the panhandles of West Virginia entirely black, or so thin that the nuance of 'dashed on one side, solid on the other' would be lost. Such a detailed line might work in a much more zoomed-in, fine-penciled work, but not how I do it. But, I might try nonetheless. --Golbez (talk) 15:48, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Introductory - "secession" discussion
In the introductory passage, following WP style guidelines, I edited the intro "secession" passage for flow and conciseness, directly contrasting the Confederate view immediately adjacent to that of the U.S. -- Then I located the excellent detailed discussion on "secession" that had been located in the introduction into the lead-in for the main "secession" article section. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:07, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
- The first line of the article is factually incorrect: "The Confederate States of America (also called the Confederacy, the Confederate States, C.S.A. and The South) was a government set up from 1861 to 1865 by 11 Southern slave states of the United States of America that had declared their secession from the U.S."
- The state of North Carolina, the last state to leave the Union, was unique in the fact that North Carolina did not seceed from the Union as the other twelve states did. Instead, NC chose to UNDUE the act which made in a part of the Union in the first place. On May 1st, 1861 Governor Ellis called an emergency session in Raleigh of the legislature. The North Carolina General Assembly immediately authorized Ellis to send troops to Virginia at once to help defend that state. An ordinance was proposed by F. Burton Craige of Rowan County, and was passed by a unanimous vote. That evening, North Carolina passed the act repealing North Carolina's ratification of the U.S. Constitution and on May 21st, 1861, President Jefferson Davis proclaimed North Carolina a Confederate state.
- Since were nitpicky on acuracy here, SECESSION is entirely different from UNRATIFYING the Constitution. The actual documents and minutes of the meeting can be found in the NC Capital Archives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.238.206.135 (talk) 01:04, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
- To UNRATIFY the Constitution, the procedure for ratifying the constitution must be reversed.
- (1) the U.S. Congress (Articles Congress then) recommends to the legislatures of all the states to use the same procedure.
- (2) the state legislature calls for a Convention of representatives of the people chosen for the sole purpose of deciding union/disunion.
- (3) states, including NC increased suffrage to elect these ratification Convention delegates, following regular state constitution order.
- (4) the state Conventions meet in public with crowds, and its debates reported and its delegates consult statewide and nationally.
- (5) Exceptions to the proposals made in Convention place requirements honored by that new government in the Bill of Rights.
- (6) The Congressionally mandated concurrence of 3/4 of the states to bind any one state was achieved with 11 of 13, unanimous with NC and RI in two years. By 1861, three-fourths required 27 for ratifying or unratifying. Congress had passed no enabling legislation, but some Disunionists proposed a Convention of all 15 slave-holding states without Congress, to secede on 3/4 ratification with twelve states.
- (7) previously constituted Congress (Articles Congress then) acknowledges legitimacy of new regime, dissolving itself without coercion.
- By your own account, no such thing happened in 1861, therefore there was no “unratifying” of the Constitution. A secessionist governor called an “emergency” meeting of the legislature, though the March inauguration following November elections was known in advance. The partial, rump legislature unanimously presumed what they would not submit to referendum either before or after, then it subsequently submitted the state to a proclamation of the Confederacy’s Provisional President, elected unanimously with a vote of six to zero.
- The references may be in the NC Capital Archives and much of it is online. As you must know, NC is held by many scholars to have superior research and networking resources than those to be found in my humbled Virginia. Please provide a direct link to your scholarly source for our perusal. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 20:16, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
When was the Confederacy formed?
From the article:
- Montgomery, Alabama served as the capital of the Confederate States of America from February 4 until May 29, 1861. Six states created the Confederate States of America there on February 8, 1861.
How could it serve as a capital of a country that would not be created for four more days? --Golbez (talk) 17:27, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- The short answer is that Montgomery was the capital because SC emissaries to each of the seven secessionist conventions prompted inclusion of the call to convention at Montgomery in each secession ordinance. Delegates showing up there were under instructions to make Montgomery the Capital.
- Coulter reports (“The Confederate States of America” p.19) Than Montgomery was chosen by “practically all” of the secessionist conventions. The official emissaries of the six secessionist governors all lobbied for Montgomery. (Houston had no such emissary, Unionist/Cooperationist he was excluded from the round-robin secessionist correspondence.) The caucus of Southern Senators on Jan 15 in Washington DC recommended it to each of their state legislatures.
- The Provisional Convention convened in Montgomery on Feb 3, 1861 and it sat on Feb 4. The motion to make Montgomery the Capital was passed with other provisions, sent to committee, drafted Feb 5-7 and passed unanimously Feb 8. The Convention nominated one name for Provisional President and one for Provisional Vice President, and Feb 9 Davis and Stephens were elected unanimously. Davis was referred to as the "President of Six Nations". (Coulter, p.32) TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 23:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Note: that "unanimous" vote was 6-0. Each state delegation had that of its number in the US Congress, except Texas, which was twice its size there. Each state had one vote, as in the Articles of Confederation. Texas had a 5-step secession process, so while the Texas delegation was seated and is counted in the "original seven", it had not the roll call vote until referendum made secession operative in their view, by the insistence of the Texas delegation, and it is so noted in the Journal. The Virginia delegation had no such compunction, so it was seated and voted before its ratifying referendum. (Martis). TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 00:39, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
”Kith and kin of every degree”
Anonymous editor would blank a quote from Coulter in the sentence, “It was an American tragedy, ‘brother against brother, father against son, kith against kin of every degree’."<ref>Coulter, E. Merton, "The Confederate States of America 1861-1865" (1950) p.61. See also Avery O. Craven in "The Growth of Southern Nationalism 1848-1861" (1953) p.390.</ref>
In one sense, the quote is a from a reliable source which bears directly, succinctly, on the topic, although, granted, somewhat gracefully. This may come from a good faith misunderstanding. The expression is not simply a flourish, it actually conveys information.
As noted in a description from Emory Thomas describing the folkways of the South, since deleted, the “persistent folk culture in the Old South” was made up of the sectional values of a culture combining aristocracy, democracy and kinship (Thomas, p.9).
- wiktionary: kith and kin means “both friends and family”.
- The phrase “kin of every degree” refers to the “degrees of kinship”, a phrase which is acknowledged in common English usage in the Wikipedia entry “Degrees of kinship” which is duly redirected to consanguinity.
Or it may be the editor may be unacquainted with the topic, but it may also be that the root of the misunderstanding may be the enduring cultural divide. If we are riding on a bus as perfect strangers, the Yankee turns to his neighbor and pleasantly asks, “What do you do?” This begins an inquiry into how things work and how innovations can be applied. The Southron inquires, “Where are you from?” This begins the search for connection to place, then kin in that place, and so, relationship with the rider, connection, a business contact perhaps, and maybe a place to stay with family at the end of the journey.
This is characteristic of both Anglo- and Afro- Southern cultures, like holding small children on the hip and line dancing. See the Pulitzer Prize-winning Australian cultural anthropologist Rhys Isaac, “The Transformation of Virginia 1740-1790 ISBN 978-0-80-784814-2. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:47, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Last CSA date
Although it has no bearing on the GIF mapping project, nevertheless, relative to previous discussion here, the last CSA government sponsored, Congressionally funded, civilian controlled military surrender was the Pacific Ocean commerce raider of twelve whalers, cruiser CSS Shenandoah Captain James Iredell Waddell, commanding. Waddell acknowledge the end of war in the Pacific from reliable sources on August 2, 1865 (Coulter, p.305), and surrendered to the British captain of the HMS Donegal in England on November 6, 1865. The Adams-class guided missile destroyer USS Waddell (DDG-24) was named for him. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, this is listed at Conclusion of the American Civil War. --Golbez (talk) 13:34, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Battle-naming conventions - i -
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I have re-termed some of the battles with the Confederate convention, linking them to the articles that use the more common Federal denominators. Generally, US names armies by rivers, battles by streams; CS names armies by places, battles by places. Thus,
Alas, the battle-naming convention is not uniformly enforced throughout the duration of the war, it does vary some on both sides. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 12:31, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
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International relations section
Britian remained out of the war because Lincoln fooled them into believing the war was over slavery. France remained neutral because England did. The remark that the south was mistaken about Britian depending on them for cotton infers the Southerns were stupid. Such remarks are offensive and racist. 71.228.186.13 (talk)the rebel sharpshooter —Preceding undated comment added 18:18, 23 February 2012 (UTC).
- -- You ascribe too much to Lincoln. First of all, much of history is writ large among the many. Begin with looking at the British Empire world wide. Regarding slavery, a good place to start is the story of the anti-slavery movement advanced by Wilberforce as pictured in the film Amazing Grace. In much the same way the mass movements of American First and Second Great Awakening had roots in Great Britain, likewise Abolitionism in the United States. Lincoln did not author all that, certainly not by fooling all of Britain single-handedly beginning March 3, 1861 at his inauguration. British believed the war was about slavery all by themselves. Just because they talk funny does not mean the British are stupid and racist.
- -- It was not that Southerners were stupid. Political leaders were beholden to their monied backers. Very rich people think that they are very smart. Very successful enterprises that have lasted a very long time are run by people who believe that those enterprises will last some time longer. Secessionists believed their monied backers who were successful, well-educated, powerful and determined.
- -- (1) no one, north or south, foresaw the increase in cotton supplied from British colonial India and Egypt expanding as much as it did as soon as it did. (2) no one, north or south, foresaw the disastrous European crop failure beginning concurrently with the American Civil War. Without it, dependence on northern grain surplus to avert widespread starvation would not have trumped the economic advantages of choosing southern "king cotton" for monetary gain.
- -- Secessionists did not make a "stupid" miscalculation about "king cotton". It was merely inaccurate economic forecasting for two very large reasons, both of which were (a) unforeseen and (b) out of their control. That is something very different than "stupid". One can, however, fairly pronounce that the resulting fluctuations in the mid-term international commodity markets resulted in financial consequences unfortunate for the secessionist cause. In the long-term, world markets returned to the more reliable supply of lower cost, higher quality southern cotton following cessation of hostilities there. "King Cotton" to be sure, only different. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Map questions - TN VA KY MO LA - Martis as RS
So I've been working a little bit here and there on the map, and I think I have most of it done. There remains the question of coloring the areas that had dual representation - that is to say, Tennessee, Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, and Louisiana.
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Kentucky and Missouri are simple - both states had representation in both houses the length of their secession. After that things get a little itchy. The following representations are partial; no side controlled the whole of any of these states, but I'm figuring, if any part of the state was represented in any side, it counts.
The first two are relatively simple - color Tennessee as being in both congresses until March '63, and color Louisiana the same from Dec '62 to March '63. Virginia is where it gets complicated. If I were to follow the rules I have set forth, this is how it would go:
The italicized portion is why I'm bringing this up. If I'm going solely by representation in Congress, while West Virginia was admitted on June 20, it did not seat its first US congressman until December 10. There is of course a way around this - change the color criteria from 'having representation in congress' to 'being eligible for representation in congress'. After all, West Virginia became eligible on June 20, whereas the rebel states had been expelled and were not eligible. There is a crazy, crazy solution to all of this that would require a lot of research to perform: Mapping the congressional districts individually. I kind of like this idea... but it would require a knowledge of Confederate districts that I don't have. Fortunately, a quick look at Google Books reveals that some of this information is there (for example, I quickly found the law that designated the Confederate districts in Georgia. Unfortunately, the scope of the counties has changed since then, but I have resources to work around that) So once I finish this "broad strokes" map, I might go real insane and do a congressional district map. Any comments, and is my analysis of the Virginia issue correct? --Golbez (talk) 04:36, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
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![[1]](https://6063860073936958020-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/wvotherhistory/confederate-government-1863-1865/district-map-1/district%20map.bmp?attachauth=ANoY7cqqmFPEPqI-d_LrnKUJWl52oEQzy2dG-Ns2m_VkpDeLdqq6-gPv3Q98Y21TL6hTsh4pzJNjkYEVb0MiMmNvlHFECubnmFVMfMs0B4M3KWmumofq1rCkVhjgTiH3na-dcB9M4lWcOJs7ghE1zM-2DgUGoENdMU6T9nI8AgfiHG8TJydEt2yYJFcwoWvco8twgr_GkoPFt-yUSxjbn_gbiiX1Ed-QQA_WoQ2BOKb-L8czLkHHz9nASAZGi8T6vCIBh3x3VsVKAaHRstaTSvVRXc2HtB_VyQ%3D%3D&attredirects=0){kind=link}
![[2]](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7066/6945736001_4f54a073a9_z.jpg){kind=link}
- If you wanted to go on with a detailed district map you will need "Martis, Kenneth C., The Historical Atlas of the Congress of the Confederate States of America: 1861-1865, Simon & Schuster, 1994". It is detailed with a great many maps, perhaps you can get it through inter-library loan, though I don't think it is terribly expensive.Dubyavee (talk) 21:22, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
WIP C.S.A. March 5
Here is my current WIP. You'll have to click through to the full version to see it animate, 2 seconds per frame for this beta version. I'm thinking the color median between yellow and green isn't visible enough, and isn't distinctive enough from the territories. And as always, the captions are up for change (and will be, since I don't want the font size jumping everywhere - I'll probably make it smaller across the board). I'm also wondering how to display the military districts, if at all. Finally, I wonder if I should switch everyone from 'member of CSA house' to 'no house' at Appomattox Court House, or on May 5 when the Confederate government was formally dissolved. I'm thinking the latter. --Golbez (talk) 00:07, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
- I prefer "no House" as of May 5 as described. Military Districts make sense given recent historiography which links the Civil War and Reconstruction as an extension of the soco-political "second American revolution" (yes, it is a double entendre, South first/North second). TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 00:39, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
- If states are indestructible like SCOTUS says, then this map should not include military districts. But if the military districts cannot be used in the map below, then their objective reality to the people living under them should be reflected in this map, since their experience was as though there were no state, only a military district. And "states" and "military districts" are mere legal fictions, artificial constructs, reified concepts. Only people are real. Yes, "Virginia", in official U.S.G. correspondence, you were once "Military District One", but your people were not. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
WIP Confederacy - Reconstruction March 5=
And here is the first 'crazy' version I mentioned, purely from a Confederate point of view, where seceded states were independent republics and the Union's claims were irrelevant. Not sure I could find any page to put this in to... but it's still an interesting perspective that should be presented. I present the military districts as their own entities. Would also like feedback on this. --Golbez (talk) 01:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
- This is brilliant. It seems to me that if it were properly captioned as "Southern States in the American Civil War and Reconstruction -- the Confederate States of America as found in the CS Congress, Journal (date-date), and U.S. Military Districts, US Congress, Journal (date-date)", or something, it certainly would not be original research, however informative and striking the GIF revelation is. They should be distributed in two different article sections . . . TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 00:39, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
- This map best illustrates the "Government and politics" section. The Supreme Court defined the U.S. government policy. Every individual is constrained to support the civil society in which they live. There was no treason against the U.S. government by residents acquiescing to Confederate government during the Great Rebellion wherever the U.S. government could not effectively extend its control. No one was required, either legally or morally, to resist either Confederate government nor, by extension for the purposes of our use of this map, the U.S. military government. But this map accounts for both de facto situations that these populations in states lived under. The map is good political geography. And, as the historian Pauline Maier observes, “a disjunction in historical research is not a disjunction in history.” This map should be used to illustrate the "government and politics" of the people of the American South, 1860-1880, or something, in the article "Confederate States of America", regardless of POV regarding the legitimacy of either government. In a way, a civil war is not over until the general government says it is over, and the U.S. government declared resistance to its administration ended to its satisfaction only when it abolished the extra-constitutional Military Districts required to administer its government in those places. Or on the other hand, maybe it better fits into "American Civil War". TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
"True documents"
DizzyDog1972 edited without discussion, “Wording corrections to be consistant with true documents of History.” with reference to the Confederacy never ending, there being no formal surrender ceremony of government.
- Jefferson Davis wrote in the Short History of the Confederate States of America, p.503, Ch.LXXXVIII, “Re-establishment of the Union by force”
- “With the capture of the capital, the dispersion of the civil authorities, the surrender of the armies in the field, and the arrest of the President, the Confederate States of America disappeared … their history henceforth became a part of the history of the United States.”
- If the Confederacy is over in the eyes of Jefferson Davis in his published work, what scholar does DizzyDog1972 propose to counter Jefferson Davis’ judgment of its history? Unreferenced assertion from unnamed “true documents” does not persuade. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 01:38, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Copy edit of "died of states rights" and "conscription"
I did a copy edit on the "died of states rights" section, restating the theme national v. local "states rights" in the paragraph from Potter, making it the conclusion, which then serves as a transition into "died of Davis" subsection. Then moved solders paragraph up to "conscription" to make it the concluding paragraph, as a better summing up-conclusion there. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:29, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
"True documents"
DizzyDog1972 edited without discussion, “Wording corrections to be consistant with true documents of History.” with reference to the Confederacy never ending, there being no formal surrender ceremony of government.
- Jefferson Davis wrote in the Short History of the Confederate States of America, p.503, Ch.LXXXVIII, “Re-establishment of the Union by force”
- “With the capture of the capital, the dispersion of the civil authorities, the surrender of the armies in the field, and the arrest of the President, the Confederate States of America disappeared … their history henceforth became a part of the history of the United States.”
- If the Confederacy is over in the eyes of Jefferson Davis in his published work, what scholar does DizzyDog1972 propose to counter Jefferson Davis’ judgment of its history? Unreferenced assertion from unnamed “true documents” does not persuade. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 01:38, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Copy edit of "died of states rights" and "conscription"
I did a copy edit on the "died of states rights" section, restating the theme national v. local "states rights" in the paragraph from Potter, making it the conclusion, which then serves as a transition into "died of Davis" subsection. Then moved solders paragraph up to "conscription" to make it the concluding paragraph, as a better summing up-conclusion there. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:29, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Proposal to move "flags"
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The national flags section is a well written summary of the history of Confederate flags found at Flags of the Confederate States of America. I have added the link to this article "See also" section.
The states and flags section is almost complete. The Secretary of the State of Missouri authorized unlimited use of the state Confederate Missouri flag image found on that webpage, with attribution, in a personal email to me, but I switched from a PC to an Apple, and I have not yet figured out how to use "Snap" in the same way I once used "Snag-it" for downloading images into Wikimedia Commons. The plain blue field pictured is a placeholder for the flag of the Missouri state seal centered on a blue field.
Note of personal privilege, when I started collaborating on this page, the first thing I did was add the Virginia flag to this chart. I am really proud of the collaboration with other editors which has expanded the flags represented to include both early flags at resolutions of secession / independence, and those subsequently adopted following acceptance into the Confederacy for each state where there were two. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:55, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
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infobox CSA capitals - not Danville, not Goldsboro
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The reference to Danville, Virginia as the third capital of the Confederacy should be deleted from the article infobox. While it is true that “Jefferson Davis slept here.”, Danville, Virginia cannot be considered a Confederate capital, nor can Greensboro, North Carolina, which by the Danville criteria would also qualify as the fourth Capital. The railroad cars used in transit for executive department officials and their archives from Richmond to Danville to Greensboro cannot be designated the "last Confederate White House", or the "last Confederate Capitol". Davis was authorized by Congress both to (1) remove the executive and archives at his discretion in 1864, and again in 1865, and (2) call the legislature to meet at a site removed from Richmond. In a republic, the capital is the place where the legislature meets, the Capitol is the building where the legislature meets. Davis was no dictator, he did not pretend to be a Napoleon, only his detractors accused him of it. The Confederacy was a kind of a republic. Davis removed much of the executive at the fall of Petersburg, but he did not call the legislature, not in Danville, nor in Greensboro, nor in any passenger car of the Richmond and Danville Railroad. On its own terms, there was no third Confederate Capital. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 00:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
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consensus Confederate railroads map - USMA
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Rjensen deleted without discussion this photo of the pre-war Baltimore &Ohio Railroad map, reasoning that it was a Union railroad.  South's 10,000 miles of track connections west to LeCompton
B&O RR Connections map, continuedit's a poor map--one that was never designed to show the southern RR system. (it was designed to show the B&O system) The rail lines look just like the rivers and the state boundaries and the coastlines and are not named--unless you already know the rail system you will not be able to see it on this map. This article furthermore does not discuss military operations using the rails, so that role is irrelevant. Fact is if they used a map like this in the NY subway a million people a day would get lost. Rjensen (talk) 04:02, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
10,000 miles of track, west to Lecompton KS Territory Lines connecting places are railroads  rails are represented as lines, places as bubbles like B&O map
Confederate Railroad MapA couple points here: the general reader cannot handle the map without the hours of excellent training TheVirginiaHistorian provides his students. The map is irrelevant-- this article does NOT concern military movements--those are covered in many other articles. This article does discuss RR's at length but the map is no help. For example it does not name a single southern RR nor explain its gauge its connection, its disrepair, its importance. As TheVirginiaHistorian pointed out before, read the caption and it says it is a :EAST-WEST map and we need a map of the SOUTH. Rjensen (talk) 04:03, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
"Fred Leach" deleteI am not so interested in restoring the locomotive Fred Leach, deleted without discussion. I thought that it was interesting to show a period 4-0-0 locomotive captured by the Confederates and used on their right-of-way. Also, sort of a counter-weight to the Great Locomotive Chase Federal raid capturing a Confederate locomotive. I am so old I saw the Disney movie in a theater. But I am beginning to get Rjensen's editorial direction about steering away from military items in this article. I did cut almost 1000 words from my "Confederacy at war" contributions following the article-too-long tag. Of course, being of Union origin does not disqualify a locomotive from use in an article about the Confederacy. Most of its locomotives in 1860 were Northern manufactured. Tredegar Iron Works in Richmond ceased production in 1860. Stonewall Jackson captured some 50 locomotives in his early raids on the B&O Railway. But I just want to say, Why not a movie about Jackson's locomotive raid? Not just a failed one-locomotive heist, an infantry raid successfully bagging tens of them!-!-! Later this year I'd like to get to writing a stand-alone stub on the Fred Leach. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:51, 28 March 2012 (UTC) USMA RR map critique / assessmentThanks to Rjensen for the assist on finding a railroad map placeholder. I believe it to have four advantages over the B&O placeholder. To review our consensus criteria / grading rubric, and critique the USMA map for our purposes. Begin assessment awarding 4.0 points. (A) Show Confederate railroads in the South at 1860 and wartime construction. (1) USMA placeholder shows “Southeastern United States 1861” as titled. Shows the Savannah-to-Charleston link, (plus). That RR’s opening Dec 1861 figured prominently in South Carolina’s secession convention, held away from regular business at Columbia, the state capital. And RR defense at Savannah enabled continuous rail supply to besieged Charleston until 1864. -- Advantage over B&O map. No points deducted. (2) USMA placeholder like the B&O leaves out Texas, with its railroad-building campaign throughout the war, so central to its Civil War – Reconstruction history. Omitting Texas shows economy for U.S. military purposes, but fails to meet comprehensive requirement to encompass the SOUTH, (minus). -- No advantage over B&O map. Omitting Texas in railroads in the south with 5% of the Confederacy’s population, deduct .05 on the 4-point rubric. (3) USMA placeholder highlights railroads south of the Mason-Dixon Line by using a thick double line similar to that used in modern Interstate maps, meeting the conventional definition of the “South”, (plus). Using title “United States” to illustrate the Confederacy, (minus). -- B&O advantage for SOUTH competition against Yankee investment in westerly railroads of NY & PA. No points deducted. (4) USMA placeholder shows Danville-Goldsboro 1864 wartime construction, (plus). Important to show military “interior lines of communication” and route of Jefferson Davis flight from Richmond by train. Does not show other wartime construction in Alabama and Georgia for connecting cotton-to-food acreage to regional theaters of war, (minus). While these wartime-built southern railroads were not important to United States military assessment of Confederate troop movements to the front, feeding Confederate soldiers was important to the Confederacy. The market was not to export, but to internal shipment to armies. -- Advantage over B&O map. Omitting provisioning railroads in wartime construction category, two-tenths of a point deducted. (B) Limit railroads mapped to most important, uncrowded visually. -- Successful, (plus). Advantage over B&O map. No points deducted. (C) Show gauges with discontinuity at cities. -- Successful, (plus). Advantage over B&O map. No points deducted. (D) Label major railways, names and dates of principal disabling -- Does not label names or disabling by disrepair or interdiction, (minus). No advantage over B&O map. Omitting labeling requirement, deduct one full point. Summary: By our criteria, USMA placeholder map has a 4-2-1 advantage over B&O map: four advantage, two no advantage, and one B&O advantage. Points deducted for omitting Texas in South (-0.05), omitting Confederate provisioning RRs in wartime construction (-0.20), and omitting labels altogether, both RR names and disrepair (-1.0) = 2.75 of 4.00. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:27, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
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Battle-naming conventions - ii -
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Recently, editors have changed a battle name of Confederate victory, First Manassas, from the Confederate name in the section “Confederacy at War” to the Union name, First Bull Run, on the grounds that “Bull Run” was more commonly used. They did not progress with the edit throughout the article. It has been reverted and re-reverted …
Proposal: We should title battles by _____ convention in the section “Confederacy at War”.
Considering input from collaborative editors, I can agree the article should follow the ACW article style generally in use, showing names used by both sides. But I still would like to denominate battles in the article on the Confederacy with the Confederate name in some economical way. How about an option (E)? (E) ALTERNATELY use Union name, Confederate in parentheses, AND Confederate name, Union in parentheses, governed by ACW convention, BUT always wikilink by Confederate name. Example: First Bull Run (First Manassas) - - - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk)
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C.S.A. animated map beta.2
and vacated in the U.S. Congress
click x 2 to begin an animated map, 1860 -1870
- (1) The map is a map of states represented in the Confederate Congress. The RS is Marts, Kenneth C., “The Historical Atlas of the Congresses of the Confederate States of America: 1861-1865” Simon & Schuster (1994) ISBN 0-13-389115-1 pp.1-8.
- (2) Animated, it shows states with proclamations of secession recognized by the Confederacy,
- (a) those represented in the Confederate Congress, and
- (b) those state delegations during the life of the Confederacy which are admitted to and expelled from the U.S. Congress.
- The RS is Martis, Kenneth C., et al, 'The Historical Atlas of Political Parties in the United States Congress, 1789-1989', Macmillan Publishing Company, NY, 1989, ISBN 0-02-920170-5 p. 112+
- (3) Those Confederate states and districts with representation in both Confederate and U.S. Congresses are of interest because of scholarly inquiry into
- (a) the changes in Confederate Congressional voting patterns which are directly associated with the disruption and occupation of Representatives districts over the course of the war.
- (b) Representation in the U.S. Congress likewise related, with states assuming vacant delegations in the U.S. Congress where candidate support for the Confederacy resulted in disputed elections, making it impossible for either U.S. House or Senate to determine who should be found “loyal” and seated following the 1862 elections.
- The RS is Marts, Kenneth C., “The Historical Atlas of the Congresses of the Confederate States of America: 1861-1865” Simon & Schuster (1994) ISBN 0-13-389115-1 pp.27-28, 72-73, 90-91, and 'The Historical Atlas of Political Parties in the United States Congress, 1789-1989', Macmillan Publishing Company, NY, 1989, ISBN 0-02-920170-5 p. 112-114.
- I propose this beta.2 map, title and legend aligned to Golbez color palette, be included in the article. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 03:08, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
Issues discussed above on this Talk page.
- “The problem is that they didn’t seceded from the Union …”
- ”They never voted to rejoin the Union … “
- ”Maps tell what country controls a certain area … “
- “The CSA never claimed any political control of Kentucky or Missouri … “
- "The political map should ONLY show the claims of the CSA and be clearly marked as to political claims made in Richmond that does not necessarily correspond to any reality in the actual states."
See discussion in extended content. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:36, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
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Beta.2 political map advantages.
- Beta.2 map features animation to graphically show the sequence of events relating to political geography in States of the Confederate Congress. See proposed Beta.2 map legend. Some items are striking, not original research, but only quickly, clearly evident in an animated map based on reliable sources.
- It shows Texas did not hold its referendum, and its delegation, though seated, does not vote in the Confederate Congress until after the U.S. Congress admits Kansas as a free state, omitted in many narrower treatments of the Confederacy.
- It shows Virginia looses its entire representation in the U.S. Congress at resolutions of secession, but it is partially restored following the Confederate capital in Richmond, omitted in many narrower treatments of the Confederacy.
- It highlights developments west, including Arizona Territory and Indian Territory, omitted in many narrower treatments of the Confederacy.
- It shows western Virginia is still represented in the Confederate Congress following the admission of West Virginia by the U.S. Congress, omitted in many narrower treatments of the Confederacy.
- It shows that readmission of many former states of the Confederacy follows admission of Nebraska, a sequence omitted in many narrower treatments of the states which composed Confederacy.
- These items are documented in Atlases published under the editorial direction of Martis. They are not original research just because they are overlooked in narrowly circumscribed monographs. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:51, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Beta.2 map legend: “secession proclamations”
- Beta.2 map features animation to graphically show the sequence of events relating to political geography in States of the Confederacy. Editors have voiced scholarly objections which can be used to amend the map legend as notes.
- Legend: secession proclamations. [begin note proposal] There is scholarly debate as to three main issues.
- 1. What is legitimate secession in a state or a part of a state, Here there are five sub-issues of controversy.
- (a) by call of a regular session of legislature or by a partisan governor’s proclamation,
- (b) by meeting in the regular place of business with access to legislative documents and state supreme court, or removed to a secessionist district,
- (c) Conventions by delegates elected directly by the people on a constitutional question campaigned before the voters, or resolved by an ad hoc secessionist clique in a rump legislature,
- (d) by a majority of convention delegates state-wide, or any majority of the state’s secessionist delegates present at an emergency session,
- (e) by (1) delegates representing a majority of the voters, or by (2) the voters themselves in a referendum held in regular voting places, or (3) whether the people need to be consulted at all in secession of a sovereign state from a union of We the People.
- 2. If there is to be secession from a union, whether others in the union, Congress, states or people, need be consulted for secession of a state and its people from union.
- 3. If there is lawful secession from a union, whether there can be secession from a state’s secession, or secession from a subsequent union.
- [links to other wiki articles of intellectual history and political philosophy -- end note proposal]. A similar construct can be made to cover every such objection to the animated map beta and beta.2 legend as proposed. Or it may be, that the map and legend needs no such note of scholarly balance and explication of the nature of secession in the United States, 1860-61, et alia, for purposes of the article, "Confederate States of America". TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 12:30, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Timeline
Please check out my timeline at User:Golbez/sandbox. It's a little sparse and has no sources, but does it look like I have all the broad strokes? I haven't uploaded maps yet, and probably won't until this is very close to going live. In particular, I'd love sources as to why TN, LA, and VA were kicked out of the 38th and 39th congresses. --Golbez (talk) 08:04, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm starting with the Biographical Dictionary of Congress, since much of my library is packed. 37th Congress and 38th Congress. The basic trail is found in the notes. In the Senate, non-attendance, disunionist statements on the floor, letters of introduction for Texas arms dealers addressed to the "Honorable Jefferson Davis", active service in Confederate uniform, etc., resulted in a seat declared vacant, then without a regularly convened state legislature, the seat remained vacant. Also with the more usual vacancy by death in Virginia's case. Representative seats faced a very much more convoluted procedure. Many elections were challenged, but no determination was made by the House during the course of the term, so the seat went vacant. Senate seats declared vacant by resolution of March 14, 1861 for non-attendance, participation in conspiracy to overthrow U.S. government. Senators expelled by resolution of July 11, 1861subsequently seats declared vacant until states with convened legislatures chose Senators and they were seated by the Senate.
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- Reports of Committees of the House of Representatives made during the first session thirty-eighty Congress 1863-64. GPO Washington 1864. Viewed April 17, 2012.
- Report No. 8. Committee of Elections … State of Louisiana … A.P. Field.
- Five members were to be elected from districts newly drawn, increasing representation from four to five. The apportionment was never made. Three were supposed to have been elected November 2. In the First District, Mr. Field was elected among less than 1/20 of the population, as the military governor had banned any votes being cast in New Orleans. The election was not according to law and 9/10 of the voters had no opportunity to make a choice. Two representatives were properly elected in the last Congress, but as Congress did not redistrict Louisiana according to law, Louisiana’s representation was vacant. Mr. Field is a loyal citizen.
- Report No. 9 Committee of Elections … State of Virginia … Joseph Segar.
- Virginia entitled to eleven seats in Congress before the separation of West Virginia, the Wheeling government districting according to law, elections held on the fourth Thursday of May 1863 in accordance with Virginia statute. Four of twenty counties had open polls. “All, or nearly all, the remainder of the district was in the armed occupation of the rebels. If any portion … was outside of the confederate lines, it was so near the enemy as to practically render the unrestrained exercise of the elective franchise by Union men an impossibility.” A selection made by a small minority, the others kept away by force, “then no such selection thus made could be treated as an election.”
- History of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary] U.S. Senate. Viewed April 17, 2012.
- In July 1861, the Senate expelled all Senators from southern states.
- On July 2, 1862, Congress enacted The Ironclad Test Oath of Office to preclude anyone who had sworn allegiance in an official capacity to the Confederacy from serving in the federal government. The application of the Ironclad Oath proved to be problematic in 1866, when the State of Tennessee elected David Patterson — a Tennessee judge during the Civil War — to the Senate. Patterson testified before the Judiciary Committee that he had sworn allegiance as a judge within the Confederacy solely for the purpose of protecting the Union loyalists residing in his judicial district. Patterson's testimony persuaded the Committee, and they voted to seat him. On the Senate floor, however, debate lasted until the early morning hours, when a compromise was reached to seat Patterson. The compromise included a resolution excluding him from taking the Ironclad Test Oath of Office.”
- So far, suggestive examples for Louisiana, Virginia, and Tennessee. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:52, 17 April 2012 (UTC)