Talk:Compact MPV

Article creation and expansion

OK, that's much better, we were missing an article on that. It is still (almost) totally unreferenced, but I guess we can live with it for the time being, until good references are found. Now, let me explain my rather extensive changes:

1. The Scénic was probably the first to be marketed as a compact MPV, and Renault can be credited for making the phrase enter popular use, as well as prompting a trend, but there were many vehicles that can be billed as compact MPVs before, especially from Japanese manufacturers (see Nissan Prairie or Mitsubishi Space Wagon).
2. When stating that some model or car class outsold others, sold very well etc. you absolutely need to provide a reliable reference. If you don't have one while writing, try a less definitive statement.
3. I won't argue with "better flexibility", though it's quite POV (perhaps it can be referenced), but your statements regarding engines are purely your observation and would be hard to reference well. This does not need to be mentioned in the article, as it is about the body style and not the engines, and can also quickly became outdated, so it's better to just leave it out.
4. The Altea was a copyrighted image, so I replaced it with a photo of the Scenic - perhaps not the nicest, but still it's the car that started the trend :D
5. The dimensions you give as "average" or "borderline" need to be very well referenced.
6. I really don't know what you are trying to argue in the last section, but it is best not to make "forward-looking statements", as they are by definition speculation rather than facts, and can quickly become outdated and untrue. I would recommend not creating "future of..." sections at all, as they are rather unencyclopedic.

Regards, Bravada, talk - 21:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It's true the Japanese were the first (all the compact MPV links in those articles were added by me), but this article describes (for the time being) only European models. Still, this distinction is adequate.

Compact MPVs are more "flexible" than hatchbacks or estates. Not only manufacturers and magazines say that, it's rather obvious. All the foldable and removable seats, those "compartments" (or "tiny-boxes-for-small-objects" or whatever they are called), the improved "room use" (how do you say that? It's "aprovechamiento del espacio" in Spanish, but there is no article on "aprovechamiento" in Wikipedia or Wiktionary), these elements mean more "flexibility".

Being "more flexible" is a positive quality in this context, so such statement is judgemental and quite POV unless it can be proved. I am not saying that this is not true, but for the sake of retaining the encyclopedic character of this article I would advise to formulate it in a less judgemental way. Magazines and manufacturers are hardly NPOV sources here, btw :D Oh, and there is a word in English for that but it's too late for me to recall it...Bravada, talk - 00:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

About the Altea and Scénic photos, I did look for a picture of the first generation Scénic (in Wikipedia, I admit), but I didn't find any. So I thought it would be positive to add a picture of a "sporty" compact MPV (the Golf Plus would have also been possible), which would contrast with boxier models like the Zafira and Touran.

Just to show you how grey area this can be - you say Golf Plus is "sporty". I would have never thought the Golf Plus is "sporty", and many people would view it as a quite positive quality. So, we run into POV here - please be careful with that! Bravada, talk - 00:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Future trends can be referrenced, as I actually did. I agree the Erlkönigs section of Auto Bild is no encyclopedia ;) but many current MPVs are sporty and crossover-SUV-like: the Caliber, the Altea, the FR-V...

No, you cannot reference the future in any possible way. The categorization of the Caliber as an MPV is disputable at best. I would rather say that there are an increasing number of models presented or announced that blend the qualities of MPVs, compact cars and SUVs. Please be very careful not to make "forward-looking statements" or generalizations that are hard to reference (magazine columns aren't valid references here). Bravada, talk - 00:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Sales numbers are easy to find... but only if the found years are irrelevant to the search. Moreover, what do we need, sales along the years, last statistics? I'll look for them now. -- NaBUru38 00:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

We need facts that would logically substantiate a given statement, that's all. Bravada, talk - 00:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The term "Compact MPV"

When did these become compact MPVs? When the Scenic and Zafira were introduced, at least in the UK they were only ever referred to as mini MPVs in the UK motoring press at least, a moniker now being applied to the smaller Modus, Meriva and their ilk on Wikipedia but which are commonly referred to as supermini MPVs by the same press who for the most part are the people who come up with the most commonly used desgnations for cars. I see no need to reclassify the original mini MPVs to make room for the smaller ones when supermini MPV is a perfectly suitable designation for them.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.171.247.82 (talk • contribs) 12:16, 17 August 2006

They are referred to as such all over Europe in most publications. The problem in the UK is that most British sources won't use the term compact car, but rather something else like small family car. Renault clearly called Scenic a "compact minivan" as long as I can remember. Bravada, talk - 10:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

That still doesn't change the fact that for cars like the Modus which are supermini based, supermini MPV is the correct term by association, if europe then decides to use Compact instead of Mini that is not a problem but it does not mean Mini should be pushed down to the smaller models. However I don't believe the use of Mini MPV is due to the UK not using the word compact but is more to do with finding a more scaleable and friendlier term...

The car family should be

• supermini - family/compact - executive

The MPV family should be

• supermini MPV - mini/compact MPV - full size MPV (or simply MPV)

This avoids any confusion through a mixing of terminology and allows UK and European definitions to coexist.

Obviously I would debate that what the manufacturer calls their cars does not necessarily make it so, if it did there would be a million and one classes to choose from this is why the motoring press whittles the classes down to a bare minimum and therefore I would assert it is their definitions which would be the best to go with.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.171.247.82 (talk • contribs) 12:35, 18 August 2006

Well, the continental term for B-class minivans is "midivan", which slots between "microvans" like Daihatsu Move and compact minivans. I don't know who came up with this Mini MPV thing. Bravada, talk - 11:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Mini MPV (also mini-MPV) refers to multi-purpose vehicles based on superminis on many publications, like The Guardian, 4Car and Via Michelin. The problem is that many other publications used that term to describe Scénic and similar: for example, this website is a total mess (the C4 Picasso is a "compact SUV", the Carens a "mini MPV" and the Zafira a "mid-sized MPV".

The first definition is more logical since the Modus, Idea and Meriva are based on superminis, while the Scénic, Zafira, Touran, Picasso and C-Max are based on small family cars. The early use of mini MPV was to distinguish them from bigger MPVs (Espace, Voyager, 806/7, Galaxy, now called "large MPVs" like most magazines do, like 4Car), but now there are more subcategories, so more names are needed.

The Google test gives six times more results with "compact MPV" than "compact minivan". "Supermini MPV" is rare, but "mini MPV" gets even more answers than "compact MPV". Large MPV give few results, but "full-size MPV" ten times less. -- NaBUru38 19:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)