Talk:Columbus Day/Archive 1

Old discussion

I change the mestizo note because:

The dia de la raza was introduced in Argentina, because the govermment was trying to recognize the indians in the new country full of European imigrants in the beggining of the 20th century, Not because of a new race (besides there are not such thing as a mestizo race. Tho Mexico and many countries in the Americas have a majority of mixed people.

While I can not disagree with any of the content or wording of any one part of this article, taken as a whole I did not think it met the NPOV guideline. The high proportion of text given to the opposition view (Columbus Day as a form of oppression) gives that viewpoint credence out of proportion to the actual usage. I'm all for discussing the controversy, but only in proportion. That said, I'm not happy yet with my own attempt to achieve balance. Please help. Rossami 17:58, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I totally agree. It is still very POV, and the opposition section is longer than the main section. That is a problem.

I can't agree that Columbus Day is an american holiday. Columbus Day, or october 12 is the day every nation in the Americas celebrates the discovery of the New World (note that Columbus didn't arrive first to the US, but to other caribbean and latin american countries). The article is way too US- "American", it should be edited so that it can be used as both a page talking about columbus day and the discovery of America (read the Americas..etc..)

User:Cjrs 79

I reinserted the quote from Ward Churchill because it adds important content. I appreciate Rossami's concern about balance. I believe that the sollution to the problem of imbalance is to add more content, not delete useful content. Perhaps someone else can add more imormation about the history of Columbus day or its role in celebrating Italian-American culture in the USA, for example. We must have faith that balance will come with time, as long as NPOV and useful content are respected. Slrubenstein

Italian-American Pride??

I live near a heavily populated Italian-American neighborhood and know many Americans of Italian descent (I myself am 1/2 Italian). None of them/us care about Columbus! The article almost sounds like some strange stereotype, as if every American with Italian blood feels some great pride for Columbus. It's very strange.

• I could not disagree more, I travel frequently to Italy and the USA, I have many personal and professional relationships with both native Italians and Italian-Americans, I have yet to find one that doesn't admire and honor Columbus. Cristoforo Colombo is deep in the hearts of the majority of Italians.--Calgvla 07:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Calgvla. Italian-Americans and Spanish folks consider Columbus a hero. --Jack 16:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The big wave of European immigration occurred about 100 years ago. Because of assimilation and intermarriage, which is the rule not the exception, most of the descendants of those immigrants no longer identify with their ancestry. I live in a community where 40% of the population is of Italian ancestry, and I have never seen any Columbus Day events here. My own grandparents came from Italy, and neither I nor any of my relatives could care less about Columbus. So here is at least one (and with my relatives at least 20) Italian-American who does not admire and honor (and does not despise or denigrate) Christopher Columbus. I believe I am in the majority. And also like 99% of Italian-Americans, I cannot speak Italian, though I do speak a second language (not Spanish).Bostoner (talk) 06:10, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

• Columbus day should also be about Hispanic Pride, Especially to Hispanic-Americans. Even though it is unknown the if CC genetic background is from Spain or Italy, it should be about LATIN (for those ppl who don't know Italians are also Latins) pride altogether.

1) if you must use the columbus day as a gay pride day....then please erase it,I always thought it was a typical American holiday. 2)Columbus did not personally kill 300 trillion of Indians, the europeans empires done it .If tomorrow we destroy the moon, should we remember Neil Armstrong as the Moon Destroyer or as the first person to set foot on the Moon? 3)Columbus has made tortures? yes ,undeniable,but not in proportions suggested by the article 4)Columbus brought slavery, enormous exploitation or devastating diseases to the Americas .LOL...it is my comment .he simply applied a pre-existing system (see Elmina Castle and Encomienda) ,he not created or modeled it...as before europeans empires done it--Agg432 (talk) 10:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Many?

In Hispanic America this day is widely ignored, and there are no specific of special celebrations of this day. Also, I never heard the term "Dia de la Raza" in the spanish speaking countries, and there is no such thing in portuguese as well (Im from Brazil). Also, the dates the article cites are almost 100 years old and do not represent the peoples attitudes toward this day. At least in Brazil, there is no holiday to honor the day Columbus discovered America.LtDoc 02:33, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

According to Spanish Wikipedia, this date is official at least in 4 Hispanic American countries:

Uruguay,as "Día de las Américas", since 1915.

Venezuela, as "Día de la Raza" from 1921 to 2002, when President Hugo Chávez change the name to "Día de la Resistencia Indígena".

Chile, as "Dia de la Raza" from 1923 to 2000. President Ricardo Lagos renamed it as "Día del Descubrimiento de Dos Mundos".

Mexico, since 1928 as "Día de la Raza".

--Menah the Great 20:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Brazil is not South America. There are many other places in S. America and Central America. They speak Spanish. Maybe you've heard of it. A Google search shows 280,000 for Dia de la Raza, along with happenings in many places.

Not taking sides but a question would be, are they celebrating Columbus day or something else on that day? "Día de la Resistencia Indígena" I am I right to interpret this as Day of the Indigenous Resistance? Wouldnt think not be celebrating Columbus landing but the fighting of the Indigenous people against him? --NuclearZer0 18:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Your translation is correct. However, if I'm not wrong the celebration is the same as before the name changing. Just take it as another populist action of Chávez but without any real significance.--Menah the Great 12:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Day off in Public Schools?

I removed the sentence about most public schools not having Columbus day off. I couldn't find any definitive proof of this online and a casual survey of a number of people I know around the country showed that all of them always had Columbus day off from public (and private) schools. clintecker@alumni.purdue.edu 10:09, 10 Oct 2005 (EST)

This tends to be more true in the Eastern and Midwestern US, due to the larger Italian-American population, than the Western US.

Sam- Thats true we never get that day off in the westcoastChild Unit Sam 03:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

== When was Columbus Day first celebrated in USA?== The article gives the impression that the first celebrations were in several states, and that FDR first instituted the national holiday. The Library of Congress does not agree with this.

From http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/today/oct12.html

The 400th anniversary of the event, however, inspired the first official Columbus Day holiday in the United States. In 1892, President Benjamin Harrison issued a proclamation urging Americans to mark the day. The public responded enthusiastically, organizing school programs, plays, and community festivities across the country.

School's should enjoy the holdiday, not at school

Unless this is wrong, I think it should be mentioned in the article. I would think the LOC is a good source for such things. What, exactly, did FDR do?

This SHOULD NOT be a holiday why celebrate the killing of an entire tribe of Arawak Indiands in the Carribean. That is what columbus did find when he came bombarding into these peoples land. If the indiand didnt help him he cut off their hands and let them bleed to death! Why should we celebrate this?

Its celebrated because of the achievements made by European Americans. While other Europeans may have come earlier (ex. Vikings) Columbus was the beginning of the large diaspora of European Americans to America, and their subsequent achievements, which quite frankly, have been shared with the entire earth. European Americans have a right to celebrate their history and achievements as do any other group of people, and it should be as respected by the public and "hands off" by critics as are the holidays for minority groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.173.82.81 (talk) 22:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Opposition section

The opposition section takes a very apologetic tone, and sounds also dismissive of critics of the holiday. Peyna 15:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Huh? The opposition section is longer than the rest of the article. Classic Wikipedia -- promoting the "dark side" of everything. But it is really too bad that we try to take a NPOV and can't accomodate all of your political views as you'd like. Perhaps you could start a blog if you want to opinionate.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.255.236.173 (talk • contribs) .

Concur. It's nuts. Good old wikipedia, always has a longer opposition/criticism section if it's PC to do so. 71.171.103.178 (talk) 15:26, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

The section also seems to give undue weight to the 134 word quotation from the Ward Churchill. The quote is also uncited as to where it came from or even if it actually came from Churchill. I think it would be adequate to say:

• Ward Churchill (an associate professor of Native American Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder, and a leader of the American Indian Movement), has argued that certain myths about Columbus, and celebrations of Columbus, make it easier for people today to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions, or the actions of their governments.

I think that adequately summarizes his position without the 134 word quote. --Dual Freq 18:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The HAWAII section, also, uses objectionable, emotionally charged (biased) language...such as this:

When 'discussing' the explorations of Columbus and Cook, in reference to the Catholic Church decree as to Christians as explorers, it now reads this way here in Wikipedia:

"...for their (Columbus/Cook) exploits."

It should read, "for their explorations."

The term, "exploits," is highly subjective framed to establish by emotional perspective only that exploerers were engaged in "exploitation" when and as they discovered -- from a European perspective -- distant lands.

The second area I point out here as to subjective, inflammatory statements made here in this "HAWAII" area is as to the "many diseases" that Cook/Columbus are said to have "brought" to Hawaiians.

Measles, yes, some colds and viruses, yes, but they also CAUGHT "many diseases" FROM distant lands, including from the people at that time who populated Hawaii. The disease process went (and still does) two ways, was (and continues to be) a mutually affecting issue of human populations once isolated from others then coming into mostly intimate contact with new populations and neither having prexisting immunities to the other populations' known infectious agents. There's no immunity, in other words, among human (and mammalian) populations when they are not exposed to specific infectious agents, and therefore, once introduced to those infectious agents, they have no immunity (or little immunity) to them, and therefore they "become sick" (and some perish).

That's what occured in the Hawaiian Islands when Cook and his ships arrived there but it also was a case (little reported) that Europeans suffered many infectious problems once introduced to the South Pacific, and to Asia especially. For example, the plague (the "Black Death") was introduced to Europe by an infectious agent hiding in the gut of fleas who rode back from Asia on camels via trade explorations/routes.

And, syphilis was introduced to Europeans from South and Central Americans, perhaps also Northern native peoples.

Thus, the whole area of "exploits" (subjective, emotionally derisive term for the acts of explorers) being the source of "infecting" "natives" with "diseases" is an ongoing negation by some people in, especially, the South Pacific who resent to this day the fact that Europeans arrived there and still live there -- in Hawaii, this language/story is used for purposes by some in Hawaii today to inflict "hate speech" on Europeans (suggesting that Europeans are responsible for "diseases" which "harm" Hawaiians and such -- same thing is said by some Native Americans for similar purposes without regard for the same infectious process they subjected Europeans to by simple fact of human immunology as I previously explained). —Preceding unsigned comment added by MyWikiEdit (talk • contribs) 20:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Ward Churchill is unemployed.

Before citing Mr. Churchill, you might want to note he has been fired for lying on his resume about having Indian blood (among other lies.)

• It's been delt with--RCT 19:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• I agree Ward Churchill reference should be removed, he was caught several times by the university administration plagiarism. He is not a respected source in the academic community and should be removed. It is inflamitory to mention him and distracts from the other factual content of the article--Calgvla 06:42, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

• You're welcome to remove it yourself, I wouldn't object. Grandmasterka 07:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, he definitely took a beating from the academic community, but many still consider a good part of his academic work as valid research in spite of the controversy surrounding his ethnicity and incendiary statements about 9/11. I've read some of his work which doesn't stand any differently whether he's Russian or Japanese. All that to say, I would think that he's not a completely off-limits source in spite of his more recent unpopularity. Efrafra (talk) 23:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

• Actually, Churchill was not fired for being a phony Indian. He was fired for plagiarism, inventing historical incidents out of whole cloth (e.g. the smallpox blanket story) and ghostwriting essays which he then cited in his footnotes in support of his own views. (See Berny Morson, "CU regents fire Ward Churchill"; Rocky Mountain News, July 25, 2007) So no, he's not just "recently unpopular," and the misconduct over which he was fired most certainly does cast doubt on pretty much all of his research and academic work.

removed the crap paragraph

This paragraph is grossly overwritten and incoherent, not to mention unreferenced and WAY too conversational (and condesending) in tone to be a part of a WP article.

"Italian-Americans feel pride in the day due to the fact that Christopher Columbus, an Italian sailor, sailed to America and opened the world to a new era. But what is to be understood is what the role of Amerigo Vespucci, the banking representative for the DeMedici family of Florence, schooled in Renaissance science, played behind the scenes. Columbus traveled to many royal courts pleading for financial backing. After several tries with other courts, Spain eventually financed the ships for Columbus' brainchild. Some Americans are embittered by this victory for Columbus because of the ensuing genocide of Native Americans, by the Spaniards, after Columbus' arrival. But is this just a simple conclusion, instead of a planetary understanding of how tribalism and clans are challenged by the expansion of transportation systems and new technology. Remember, the horse did not exist in America until the Spanish invasion. In the United States, Banks and federal offices are closed on Columbus Day, as well as many of the offices at the Italian embassy in Washington D.C. and the various Italian consulates throughout the United states of America."

I don't think Columbus Day should be a holiay. We celebrate it just to remember how the mass murderer of Columbus killed half the Native Americans with diseases. I believe that is very cruel. All Columbus Day is is a day off of shcool/work.--Pg908 21:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Pg908

The old myth

Columbus killed half the Natives Americans? Where are your sources? You are a little bit racist, I think. Go to study, kid.

Paolo Emilio Taviani, "Columbus the Man: Modern Psychology on a Medieval Basis" - Five Hundred Magazine, Volume 1/No. 2; Oct/Nov 1989, Coral Gables, FL 33146.

I removed the paragraph:

"The modern-day legend of Christopher Columbus and the discovery of America is due to Washington Irving. His "biography" of Columbus, a dramatic and embellished account, was so popular it became accepted as fact in the English speaking countries. However, in the Spanish speaking countries Columbus' crossing of the Atlantic is widely accepted as the first contact between the two civilizations (European and native American) and additionally proved that the maritime technology was there to do it frequently."

Columbus a legend? Why don't you read the original papers of the XVth century instead of writing bulls? The most ancient info and pictures of Christopher Columbus can be found in the churchs and museums of Italy. They are original papers. But many writers i.e. Washington Irving did not speak italian, so they did prefer to base their own research on false news, second-hand papers and wrong translations. The world's leading historian, the most expert in this topic was an Italian scholar, Professor Emilio Taviani, who wrote over 100 publications about Columbus. Forget Irving 's book of 1828-1831 (lol) and try reading Taviani's books, please.

"Historically, Columbus was not the first to discover America, nor was he the first European to land in America, though he was the first European to successfully bring European culture to the Americas. There is also controversy surrounding the treatment of the native people of the Americas by Columbus and by Spanish conquistadors."

Historically speaking, Columbus is officially recognised and accepted by Renaissance scholars and modern historians as the first European to land in America, as told by Spanish and Italian papers of the time. We cannot say the same thing about the Vikings, whose Vinland map has showed of being a fake, a modern forgery on ancient paper. Also, we can only theorise about other folks like, for example, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Chinese, the Israelites and so on. Read: "Christopher Columbus: His Birthplace and His Parents", Paolo Emilio Taviani's Christopher, Columbus: The Grand Design, Orbis Publishing Ltd., London, 1985, Chapter I & II reprinted in in: Five Hundred Magazine, Volume 1/No. 2; Oct/Nov 1989, Coral Gables, FL 33146 --Jack 15:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the previous user is incorrect in their statements regarding the presence of the Norse in North America. Most scholars at this point acknowledge that the Vikings landed at what is now the Eastern coast of Canada a good 500 years before Columbus even set sail. Artifacts and buildings found at L'Anse aux Meadows clearly support this. The Norse were the first Europeans to discover and attempt to settle America. This is a clear fact, and one that should be addressed in the article. Thekithless (talk) 13:22, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

It needs to be (and certainly is) addressed somewhere in the encyclopedia, but the article on Columbus Day isn't really the right place. +Angr 13:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

it is not important who was the first to reach the americas...because none of previous voyages (real or alleged) had ,has or will have consequences,an impact on history .About The Old "False" Myth u see my comments in section 2--Agg432 (talk) 12:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Genocidas Totales

Hello Estadounidenses. Soy español, y me siento orgulloso del día de la Hispanidad como un motivo de celebración de una herencia y cultura común a ambos lados del Atlántico. Sin embargo tenemos que admitir (España) que además de un encuentro de culturas, también fue un choque de culturas y que muchos de los españoles que allí fueron mancharon en Nombre de España y su rey sus manos con la sangre de inocentes. Guerras, malos tratos, epidemias un cúmulo de atrocidades que en muchos casos llevaron a la exterminación de los pueblos indigenas. Pero no sólo España tiene un pasado concreto genocida (y con esto no justifico su acción) pero a los países anglosajones os ha llegado la leyenda negra que perdura desde el siglo XVI. Gran Bretaña debe responder por sus crimenes contra los nativos de Australia, los maorí en New Zealand o su más que discutida administración en la India. The United State debe responder por su política genocida contra los nativos américanos que exterminó en su camino hacia el Pacifico. SouthAfrica, Germany, China, Russia etc... Todos los países tenemos una historia de la que enorgullecernos y otra que debemos denunciar y evitar repetirla. Pero lo que no debemos es cargarle el muerto (spanish expression) a una sola nación, sea cual sea. Nisibis (Spain) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.35.120.254 (talk) 02:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

If you wish to respond in another language, it should be done at that language's discussion section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.173.82.81 (talk) 22:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Non ti preoccupare Nisibis sono solo 4 ignoranti invidiosi , l articolo è copiato integralmente da questo video di youtube,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbx3vYd5ddc,il problema è che non gli va giù che sia stato qualcuno legato in qualche modo alla Spagna, ma Dura Lex Sed Lex,ericson o chiunque sia arrivato prima di Colombo non ha lasciato nessun impatto sulla storia.Nessuno di loro parla Norvegese o Islandese come madre lingua.A nulla servono le fesserie dei genocidi, sarebbe successo in ogni caso,chiunque fosse arrivato in quell epoca avrebbe fatto lo stesso,Magellano,Drake,Cartier,Caboto,semplicemente perchè era una cosa normale di quel tempo "schiavizzare" le persone cosi come oggi è normale fermarsi ad un semaforo.Beh i portoghesei fecero le stesse cose nell africa occidentali ed il concetto di servitu della gleba era ben presente in europa,ma tutto questo non puo' essere utilizzato perchè Colombo è in qualche modo legato alla Spagna e dunque tutto quello che è Spagna è merda.Lasciali perdere sono solo 4 pidocchiosi in cerca di gloria.--Saved34 (talk) 15:13, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

La maggior parte delle persone che usano Wikipedia in inglese non parlano italiano. Non ho neanche me usato translate.google.com. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:20, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

"A lawyer"?

"Columbus Day was introduced as a U.S. national holiday by a lawyer, a son of Genoese immigrants coming around-the-horn."

- Who? Why begin an explanation of the founding of Columbus Day by referencing an unnamed person? Please cite a name, date/place of birth, anything.

"...During the 1850s, Genoese immigrants settled and built ranches along the Sierra Foothills. As the gold ran out, these skilled "Cal-Italians"...

- "Cal-Italians"? Is this made-up, or is it an actual recognized sub-culture? Please cite reference.

"...In 1937, at the behest of the Knights of Columbus (a Catholic fraternal service organization named for the voyager), President Franklin Delano Roosevelt set aside Columbus Day as a United States holiday."

- "behest of the Knights of Columbus"? Once again, please cite original source...

This is exactly the type of commentary that discredits Wikipedia. Please clean this up as soon as possible —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.162.0.44 (talk) 16:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

And who was Columbus?

Perhaps it was deleted, but shouldn't the article mention why it's called Columbus Day? The only reference to Christopher Columbus was in the "External Links" section at the bottom. Perhaps someone with more experience could insert his name at the appropriate spot. Related articles: Christopher_columbus, and European_colonization_of_the_Americas. 208.27.111.125 22:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Minnesota

"Columbus Day is not celebrated in the state of Minnesota."--Is due to the large Scandinavian population and they are claiming one of their own discovered America before Columbus?12:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Someone recently edited the first sentence about Minnesota to say that the holiday is observed there and gave an external link backing it up. The following sentence started off "However, ..." which no longer made sense given the change to the first sentence. I removed the "However", but really, neither of these sentences belongs in this paragraph at all anymore. I don't want to delete them myself, because I don't know much about the subject matter, but they are definitely now out of place in a paragraph about places where Columbus Day is not observed. Seansinc 18:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Berkeley

Berkeley is spelled wrong in the article. 129.237.2.66 22:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Can someone tell me (or reference) the individual who woke-up one morning in 1992 and realized that Indigenous People discovered America? (ref. "Similarly, the city of Berkeley, California has replaced Columbus Day with Indigenous People's Day since 1992,[13]) 18:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Festividad de Nuestra Señora del Pilar - Día Nacional de España

There is hardly any mention of Columbus in Spain on this day. His sighting of land is viewed as something that happened on the day already dedicated to the Virgen of the Pillar.Guille 16:58, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Small pox

"An estimated 85% of the Native American population was wiped out within 150 years of Columbus's arrival in America, due largely to diseases such as smallpox, which were both accidentally and deliberately spread among Native American populations."

The claim above uses this cite as its source:

Smallpox, Indians, and Germ Warfare http://brneurosci.org/smallpox.html

Yet that source is not about anything that happened within 150 years of Columbus's arrival in America. It instead is about something alleged to have happened 271 years after his arrival in America. As such, it does not provide evidence of how the Native American population was wiped out within 150 years of Columbus's arrival. — Walloon 03:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Discovery vs. Encounter

I move that "discovery" be changed to encounter, or some other neutral word. The reason for this is that it is a discovery from Columbus' point of view, but where is our own point of view? To the Europeans, it's definitely a discovery, because they didn't know that those continents were there, but the people indigenous to the Americas didn't discover themselves. What if they had come to Europe first? What would we call that? I think that there is still a pervasive European perspective in some things, and the idea that Columbus "discovered" a place is silly. He just came across it by accident. Hires an editor 23:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

"Discovery", as the word is defined in the English language, means "coming across something by accident", whereas an "encounter" can be staged, planned, or known beforehand. You can equally say Native Americans discovered Columbus, and Columbus discovered Native Americans, in that moment in history. So in this case it is the appropriate term, it has just received negative cultural connotations over time.--138.16.10.68 (talk) 04:57, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

no spanish view?

In Spain is a national holiday but i can't find any information about Spain. But i was led to this page from the national day day page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.35.146 (talk) 21:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Controversy continued (protests in Hawaii)

I was going to just add a fact tag but this unsourced paragraph seemed so controversial and non-neutral that I've removed it entirely:

Many Native Hawaiians decry the celebration of both Columbus and Cook, known to have committed acts of violent subjugation of native people. Discoverer's Day is a day of protest for some advocacy groups. A popular protest site is the Cathedral of Our Lady of Peace and the Chancery building of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Honolulu. Such advocacy groups have been commemorating the Discoverer's Day holiday as their own alternative, Indigenous Peoples Day. The week is called Indigenous Peoples Week.

Undoubtedly it's true about the annual protest but sounds like it was taken from one of those "advocacy groups"' websites. --70.234.37.149 (talk) 09:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I have restored the material with citations. 80.229.190.197 (talk) 10:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Moved Ayn Rand Institute paragraph

I moved a paragraph discussing an opinion by someone from the Ayn Rand Institute from the lead section to the section describing academic reactions to the holiday. Whatever the merits of that opinion, the Ayn Rand Institute is hardly a vehicle for mainstream thought, and giving that kind of prominence to its views struck me as giving undue weight to a fringe position. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 15:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Opposition

I removed the "Written and Academic Resistance" paragraph almost entirely, merging what I could back into an "opposition" section. Virtually all of it discussed the cruelties imposed by Columbus and later Europeans, but not the holidays themselves. It was also mostly unsourced or sourced to unreliable authors like Kirkpatrick Sale. As such it had no place here. I also cut down the Ayn Rand institute's statement to a sentence, which I think is more than they deserve in the final analysis.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Kirkpatrick Sale's book is referenced in the Encylopedia Britannica 2004 CD-ROM edition. The section you removed from the National Catholic reporter was about a visit to the Vatican timed for Colombus Day. The quotes are from contemporary sources regarding the atrocities that took place, your removal of them makes whats left look like mere matter of opinion with no substance to the claims. You are quick to cast doubt od Sale but is not your own religious faith getting in the way of an article which you think shows a fellow Catholic in a poor light? Please remember the quotations are from fellow Catholics and not enemies of the Church. Taam (talk) 19:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't try to guess at my motivations and don't bring in my religion. Comment on content, not on the contributor. I removed the material because none of it mentioned the Columbus Day celebrations which are the subject of the article. Therefore it is original research to include them.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:35, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

As usual with people who are quick to put down others you are very sensitive to any perceived slight towards self. I note you ignore all the points I raised and am left to draw my own conclusions. You don't want religion brought into your wikipedia work why advertise it on your user page? Taam (talk) 05:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:NPA is quite clear that you are to comment on content, not editors. I put my religion user box on my page to make my biases public; however, it is extremely presumptuous and offensive for you to see that and assume my actions here were based on religion rather than the entirely valid reasons I gave. The fact is, that material was not directly relevant to the subject of the article, which is Columbus Day celebrations, and was thus original research. Only sources that discuss actual people's problems with the holiday, not with Columbus himself (or the European colonization) are relevant here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

You helpfully provide a user box that points out potential bias to your readers. Acting on this advice I point out the same when you deleted pertinent material that critics refer to in their works that explained why people objected to the celebration of this day but for this you accuse me of making a personal attack and call me presumptious!! All I can say if the the "cap fits...." otherwise you are entitled to your opinion about me. Taam (talk) 10:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The point is, there's no reason for you to have assumed I removed that material based on religion unless you were assuming bad faith, as I gave the actual reasons I removed it, and have repeated them here. You really can't see how presumptuous is is to assume I removed material simply because I, like billions of other people through history, are of the same religion as Columbus? The material was not pertinent; it just listed off complaints about Columbus and later Europeans, and did not discuss the holiday. At any rate, the material you added back in is better, as it directly addresses the subject of the article. I will go through soon to vet it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

---

Article structure

I think the article would be improved by sections or themes which reflect what seems to be the common positions with regard to the Columbus Day of celebration: 1) The status quo, the holiday as it came about and those who wish to maintains its traditional celebration. 2) Those who are totally against the day with their reasons set out. 3) Those who would transform the day into something which they consider more inclusive, e.g rather than a "Columbus Day" (which to some is a day or mourning rather than celebration) a day which celebrates the good in all the diverse cultures in America. Any comments on how to proceed? Taam (talk) 05:33, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Here in Brazil

Hey i'm brazilian and i didn't know that this was a holiday or a special day in american countries.Here in Brazil when we are kids we always learn that the portuguese navegator Pedro Álvares Cabral discovered Brazil in april /22 /1500.We think more the idea of the discovery of brazil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.122.86.61 (talk) 01:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

That's unrelated. Columbus found the continents as a whole and brought them into the view of the rest of Europe. Cabral didn't sails until several years after Columbus had returned, so he found out there was land out here from Columbus. Joesolo13 (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Gregorian calendar

What is the point of giving the Gregorian date for an event which occured some ninety years before that calendar came into effect? --Miaow Miaow (talk) 09:52, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Because that is the calender that we use now days. It wouldn't make much sense to use another. However, perhaps the date could be added in another 'calender format'. ...I'm not sure of which calender was used in the 1400's. o_O

Move

Over the past months I've done a lot of work on this article, expanding it with information about the different Columbus celebrations held throughout the Americas and elsewhere, as it's the same holiday commemorating the same event. Perhaps a renaming would be in order, something along the lines of Columbus celebrations. Any thoughts?--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I have always wondered why they say Columbus "discovered" America. There were Native Americans already living in America. I would term it Columbus "visited" America!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.130.197.224 (talk) 18:57, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

la raza

I think the translation of "la Raza" is inaccurate. Raza sounds sort of like the English word "race" but in my experience is used more as English speakers speak of "a people". I would translate "Dia de la Raza" as "Latino Peoples' Day". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.184.46.93 (talk) 18:58, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The other common name for the international Columbus celebration in Spanish is "Dia de la Hispanidad", which shows that you are more or less right - both titles are used to promote the idea of an international Hispanic race or people with common traits.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:55, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Merge from Indigenous Peoples' Day

Indigenous People's Day is a counter-celebration to Columbus Day, observed on the same day. It is only observed in a few cities in California. Much of the material provided at that article is redundant with what's already here, and some of it is inaccurate: there's no evidence that other jurisdictions have renamed or axed Columbus Day specifically due to the influence of Berkeley's Indigenous Peoples' Day. In reality, all such switches are just part of a general trend away from the Columbus myth in American culture, including the Berkeley version. As such there's no real reason for a separate, synthesized article.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:55, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Indigenous people's day is independently notable, and though it started as a reaction to Columbus Day, it is distinct from that holiday. I was surprised to find no article existed for it, a seeming omission, so I created one. The article is less than 24 hours old so of course it can stand some collaborative improvement and expansion. I've found another source regarding the history behind Berkeley's original decision. The sources all seem to suggest that other cities were following Berkeley's lead, but if there are sources suggesting their moves to celebrate Native Americans on Colubus Day are independent of Berkeley's it would be helpful to show that history too. The general rule is to have separate articles about things that are reactions to other things rather than creating portmanteau articles. So we have articles for Kwanzaa and Boxing Day (and while we're at it, Christmas Eve), even if they started out as reactions to Christmas -- itself apparently a counter-celebration to Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. Indigenous People's Day is a specialized subject of separate interest to Columbus Day. As a matter of article organization and serving the reader, people wanting to know what Indigenous People's Day is do not necessarily want to read through a Columbus Day article, and for people reading about Columbus Day I think the Indigenous People's Day information is already too long and sidetracks the article. Inserting all the additional information from the Indigenous People's Day article would give it undue weight, but deleting it would violate WP:PRESERVE. If this is a localized celebration that relates to just a few cities in California, it is all the more reason to keep it separate. However, there are signs (and it is cited to one source - one could probably find others) that the day resonates widely with Native Americans throughout the United States. There are a number of things at play here, which is why it is useful to provide context of other places that celebrate indigenous people, and other reasons why Columbus Day and its parades are fading away. Yes, partly a rethinking of the Columbus myth. Also, partly because the holiday just doesn't resonate with people much anymore in the US. And very much because people want to celebrate indigenous culture. Mentioning that other countries have dedicated days for indigenous people helps put this in context. That's not SYNTH - for the most part I've used sources that describe these other holidays and Indigenous People's Day. The sources are providing the context, it's not an original comparison made just for Wikipedia. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:19, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Would it be possible to describe the controversy over Columbus Day without inserting lengthy descriptions of competing holidays that serve mainly to distract from and dilute the material on Columbus Day? The article as written makes as much sense as substituting a biography of Elie Wiesel for the first paragraph of the article on Hitler. 76.189.41.113 (talk) 00:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that the "Indigenous Peoples' Day" article is essentially synthesis of various different concepts. On the one hand, it discusses various anti-Columbus Day moves from across the world, on the other, it goes into specific details about the specific celebration called "Indigenous Peoples' Day" in Berkeley, and then synthesizes it all together as if the sources all describe a single pan-American and pan-Indian phenomenon. This article already deals with criticism of Columbus Day, and there is plenty of room for a sentence or two on Berkeley's move.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

As with all knowledge it is a synthesis of different facts. It is not a WP:SYNTH as described on Wikipedia because it does not connect facts that are not connected by the sources. I don't own the article, but the intended subject is the day set aside to celebrate / recognize indigenous people in the Americas. The sources take this in several directions (as with most articles it has different paragraphs and sections that treat different aspects and context related to the subject) - the origins in Berkeley and before, celebrations of the same day in other places, celebrations outside America, and other places where Columbus Day observances are dropped or changed. Some sources do describe this as a widespread related phenomenon. Others report the connection but do not attempt to characterize it. Likely some are out there characterizing it as part of a pan-Indian movement like pow wows, or the empowerment conferences from which it sprang. A pan-Indian movement is a somewhat specific thing, and not the only way Indians from different places and the wider community can all share a common practice. But anyway yes, the sources do connect these different celebrations. Think of it this way - suppose a giant hole appears in the middle of a road somewhere in Florida due to a lowering of the water table there. And then next year a similar crater appears in California. Years later there is a third hole in upstate New York, this time from a dewatered mine. It would be synthesis to write an article noting the similarity of all of these events or suggesting a connection. However, if the sources write articles describing these as sinkholes, and mention these specific cases as examples of sinkholes, it is fair to say that we have a phenomenon worth a Wikipedia article. The connection here between different IP-day celebrations is more causal than randomly occurring sinkholes, but it's a similar point. There are sources that survey them and tie them all to the phenomenon of celebrating Native American people, or to abandoning Columbus Day. Some connect them directly to the origin in Berkeley and before. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that the sources don't actually describe a single concept. Some sources talk about individual holidays celebrating indigenous peoples, which are not all on Columbus Day; some describe the local anti-Columbus Day celebration in Berkeley; and some describe various counter-Columbus moves in different places. This disparate material is being used to generate the novel argument that "Indigenous People's Day (also known as Native American Day) is a secular holiday celebrated in various localities in the United States, begun as a counter-celebration to Columbus Day." This is the essence of SYNTH. If you want the article to discuss all counter-Columbus moves, or else to discuss all proposed holidays celebrating Native Americans, then that it has to be clear from the beginning.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

There's no novel argument - it's in the sources. There's no requirement that all sources have to be about the subject of the article. They're used to support different facts. What happens every year in Berkeley and a growing number of other places is not an anti-Columbus celebration, although it began that way. It's a day honoring Native American people and culture. Again, as with every subject here, there are different aspects to this holiday, and a context. It means different things to different people. Just like any holiday. It shouldn't be too hard to understand all of this within the rubric of an Indigenous People's Day. The nexus is in the sourcs. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

If the article is to be about the celebration begun in Berkeley, then that needs to be made clear. None of the sources imply that the celebrations in South Dakota, Hawaii, San Francisco, etc., were inspired by Berkeley. And I don't see why a holiday only celebrated in a few small California towns needs its own article anyway.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The subject of the article is, as the lede states, "a secular holiday celebrated in various localities in the United States...to promote Native American culture and commemorate the history of Native American peoples." All of these are connected, an obvious point borne out by the sources. They specifically say that the San Francisco and South Dakota events arise from the same movement, and they make the connection with Hawaii as part of the broader trend of replacing or abandoning Columbus Day as a holiday. If you don't see the use in an article you need not read it - there are 3 million others. It does meet notability requirements, and it has obviously been a significant issue to many people who were willing to organize, protest, hold conventions, write, sponsor legislation, and go to jail over the issue. Wikidemon (talk) 19:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

As there is no consensus for merger, I'm deleting the tag.--Work permit (talk) 04:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Indigenous Peoples Day

As a well-educated indigenous American, I have never heard of Indigenous Peoples Day. This is a travesty. Wikipedia should immediately address this by inserting a reference to indigenous peoples wherever the name Christopher Columbus appears in any of its articles. Indeed, there should be a new portal created where people can get together and plan, organize, and agitate for indigenous peoples parades to supplant, or at least accompany, Columbus Day parades. Moreover, there are more people in China than in the US. A true worldview of of events would suggest that the discoverer of China be referenced instead of, or at least along with, any reference to Christopher Columbus. In fact, I read the entire Christopher Columbus article in Wikipedia and did not come across a single reference to one of the many Chinese Christopher Columbus monuments, statues, and memorials. I was outraged at this insensitivity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.42.115.213 (talk) 20:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

While I understand your sentiment, and certainly will be among the last to defend the traditionally naive idea of Columbus, I think you are talking about a function that is beyond the scope of Wikipedia. To address what you said point by point: 1) Re; Indigenous People's Day - you should contribute, in an NPOV way, to that page, and to making references to it where applicable and relevant. 2) re: portal for activism/agitation - This is not a activism site, nor is it a public forum in the manner you're discussing. That's the function of a chat room or similar thing. I'm fairly sure there are many under which this topic could fall. It's not a judgement of whether you're right or wrong, it's just a matter of where the proper place for such discussion is. Wiki is based on NPOV. What you're talking about is inherently POV, and outside of the realm of encyclopedia. Neither "side" in the discussion is allowed to use a neutral information source as a persuasive forum. It's what keeps wiki from getting out of hand. 3) re: As with anything else, you're welcome to add new material...that's the great thing about wiki. Just make sure it meets the criteria for a wiki article...it has to be notable, given due weight, be properly referenced (i.e. not just your opinion, but from a credible source), etc. The best thing to do is present your intended edits here in the talk page and get consensus from your fellow editors, just as you would want them to do for you. 4) re: insensitivity, you need to be careful in making unwarranted attacks and assuming that the absence of given information is the basis of intent. Wiki is ever-growing and new content is always being added. In most cases, a lack of info is simply because no one has added it yet. Making fairly strong accusations about the community is not a way to endear yourself or make progress, especially in the absence of any rational reason to think it's being "suppressed". It might make for passing rehtoric, but it's not a civil way to handle a request. Good luck, and thanks for your interest in expanding the article! Just keep in mind the balance that wiki seeks to protect. 204.65.34.192 (talk) 17:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Landing on the Moon? I think not.

Does someone want to revert this back to the real text? 174.0.56.57 (talk) 20:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Federal Holiday, when?

This article says "In April 1934, as a result of lobbying by the Knights of Columbus, Congress and President Franklin Delano Roosevelt October 12 was made a federal holiday under the name Columbus Day." While most newspapers say the same sort of thing are we sure this is correct? I tried to correct snopes.com, who has an article on Columbus Day, on this issue and they wrote back saying the standard account is wrong. They use the Library of Congrees records which they say says; Columbus Day did not become a Federal Holiday until 1971. They say it was proclaimed by Roosevelt but not actually made a National Holiday until the Monday holiday law went into affect in '71. I have seen a couple sources which say this also, although the vast majority say it became a National Holiday in 1934 (I guess taking affect in 1937). How can we be sure? Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:40, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Date it falls on

I made a template, several years ago (which worked then but not now). The template was of the form, nth Weekday in Month. Does anybody have a repair or replacement for it? --Uncle Ed (talk) 17:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

columbus day in california

I believe Columbus Day is recognized by California. it is no longer a state holiday, ie, state workers still have to report to work, however, the state still recognizes it as a holiday. Please see this list of Legal Holidays as differentiated from this list of State Holidays which close down all state offices. Also note this list of court holidays in the state. The key distinction for the other states isn't they they "celebrate" it as a state holiday, but the three listed in the article do not even recognize "Columbus Day" they call it something else or ignore it altogether. Thanks. -- InspectorTiger (talk) 22:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I didn't just write it arbitrarily... I pulled it off other websites. timeanddate. It is also talked about in the wall street journal here wallstreet journal. The edd has it on their list because it is a federal holiday and they work around it. The superior court also agrees it is no longer a state holiday Superior Court says no to Columbus Day. According to California State University East Bay Furlough Information and Schedule, Columbus Day used to be a state holiday until 2009. It is no longer a recognized holiday by the DPA and the state of California. Because of this, all state offices will open normally on that day even though it is a federal holiday when federal offices, post offices, and banks close for the day. California (where I live) also has dumped Lincoln's Birthday. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this is a bit confusing and I certainly didn't assume you were editing in bad faith. I have done some further research and I can't find explicitly the changes adopted last year which eliminated Columbus Day. I have looked at the 2010 versions of the California Civil Code and the 2010 Government Code (those are the 2010 versions, I confirmed on Lexis Nexis, but i didnt want to link you to a subscription service) and Columbus Day is still listed. Also Good Friday and Admission Day, are listed though government offices are open then. Furthermore, all the news articles regarding the change and the court case indicate that the law was changed last year and such changes should be reflected in the 2010 laws. They all tend to use the language "paid holiday" rather than "holiday" but that is not 100%. I'm leaving your language in, since I'm certainly not completely sure, but I think this evidence tends towards the conclusion that CA still recognizes Columbus Day as a holiday, but not a paid government holiday. Thanks. -- InspectorTiger (talk) 01:41, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

When is Dia de la Raza observed?

When exactly is the Dia de la Raza?CamrynRocks! ^{|Live life} 01:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CamrynRocks! (talk • contribs)

Good question. Is it always observed on October 12 or does Latin America follow the US standard of putting it off until a convenient monday? I did find this article on Public holidays in Argentina which states that "If the date falls on a Tuesday or Wednesday, the holiday is the preceding Monday. If it falls on a Thursday, a Friday, a Saturday, or a Sunday, then the holiday is the following Monday." so that means it could be on a different day there than in the US (if the month begins on a Sunday or Monday). While Public holidays in Mexico lists it as a civic holiday that falls on the 12th every year, though it is not listed as "Dia de la Raza" but as "Descubimiento de America." The "Public Holidays in" pages are not very well sourced, and also my spanish is pretty limited even where they are. This is probably worth a trying to figure out given how much info there is about the US observation. A chart might be nice? Ive been thinking of doing a chart for the US states based on their statutory recognition. A lot of work though. -- InspectorTiger (talk) 16:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Each country and jurisdiction celebrates it differently, but Columbus Day/Dia de la Raza/Descubimiento de America/Fiesta Nacional is always considered to be October 12, regardless of when it is celebrated. There needs to be much more about local variances than there is.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

As long as those holidays celebrate Columbus and his legacy. This is an article on Columbus Day not on other holidays that happen to be observed on the same date. Certainly the offshoots can be mentioned, as they are, but 90% of this article should be on the holiday proper. Other holidays should have their own articles if they aren't really about celebrating the discovery of the new world. Perhaps at the bottom there could a category of "Other holidays celebrated on October 12" and have links to their pages on wikipedia? As a side note the question was not a good one for wikipedia. The little kid is using wiki as he would a blog as can be seen on his talk page whereas these article discussion pages are for queries on improvement. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

The user's other edits notwithstanding (though it appears you're correct), the question is a good one for wikipedia: when is Dia de la Raza celebrated? The article discusses Dia de la Raza but does not answer this question. The date to be commemorated is Oct. 12, but Columbus Day in the US is celebrated on different dates, whichever is the second monday of october. This year the 11th for example. Answering this question regarding Dia de la Raza would improve the article.

As for your first comment: Dia de la Raza--at least initially--was definitely intended as a commemoration of Columbus' landing. If you take a glance at the spanish wikipedia page for Dia de la Raza this will be confirmed in the lede and farther down or a quick google search of "dia de la raza" will turn up multiple english-language sources confirming this. This is not merely a coincidence, these are the celebrations of the same event, but the official celebrations may not fall on the same day due to the vagaries of governmental holiday rules. I would not object per se to separating the article into 2 (something like veterans day and remembrance day) but only if someone were prepared to flesh out the Dia de la Raza info into a respectable article; what we have here is not enough and the subjects are closely enough related to warrant inclusion. -- InspectorTiger (talk) 15:59, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually I wasn't really talking about Dia de la Raza being in the article since you are correct in what it's about. I was more answering the query above mine that we need "more about local variances." My point was that local variances about Columbus Day is fine, but celebrations that have morphed into something else would need their own articles. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:06, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Good point. It's sort of a weird question what with the "Italian Heritage" takeover of Columbus Day in many places plus the Native American Day movement, not to mention the various latin american observances. I certainly agree in principle. Things like Day of Indigenous Resistance or Indigenous People's Day, Day of the Cultures, etc could certainly merit their own spin-off articles if someone did the research to make them substantial. --InspectorTiger (talk) 21:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Spain section

I re-wrote the "Spain" section; there is a discussion on the matter at the Fiesta Nacional talkpage (here). Moonraker12 (talk) 10:30, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I did some additional work on it (note I didn't completely remove your edits). The real problem is the "Dia de la Raza" bits. As I explained at Talk:Fiesta Nacional de España, it was the change to "Dia de la Hispanidad" that celebrated the link with the hispanidad. The concept of hispanidad did not even really exist at the time Dia de la Raza celebrations were becoming popular. Additionally, the source you're citing doesn't say anything about Spain traditionally celebrating "Dia de la Raza", or about the country changing the name to avoid the negative connotations of the word "raza".--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:11, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Colon / Columbus

If I understand MOS:Identity correctly, shouldn't we be using the name Christopher Columbus in this article, instead of Cristobal Colon? The article for him is Christopher Columbus. Paxsimius (talk) 15:00, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

spelling

The word "predominantly" is misspelled in the article. 66.57.72.214 (talk) 02:52, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:14, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Day of the week in October 12, 1492?

According the formula on this page October 12, 1492 was a Fryday, according this formula it was a Saturday. Here also, a Saturday. Where to find the proof that it was really a Monday? I think we have to edit something in the article. --Netpi (talk) 02:30, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. Not October 12 1492, October 12 1970 was a Monday. --77.57.81.227 (talk) 03:30, 15 October 2013 (UTC)